Hips Scores

[byott]

Hi.

Is 20 a high hip score to breed from ??

What do you think please.

[Akitaowner]

what breed - labrador? - that sounds really high....

just got my boy done - 5 + 4 so 9, 10.6 is his breed average they normally tell u on the report what is the breed average...

[MolassesLass]

Far too high IMO. The 'rule' is supposed to be that you breed from dogs under the breed average, and with hips that aren't uneven (measured by adding the two hip scores and dividing by two, if the difference is greater than that, than it not a good idea). i.e Hips 2:6, total 8, halved total 4, hips acceptable. Hips 1:7, total 8, halved total 4, hips not acceptable. And in breeds where the average is over 10 (as in GR) then dogs of 10 or under shoud be used.

That all said, it would also have to depend on what else the dog had to offer and the exact circumstances, but basically, NO.

Edit: GR breed average is over 10! Learn something new every day. :rolleyes:

Edited May 13, 2005 by molasseslass

[poodlefan]

If its a Golden Retriever we are talking about, the breed average is 16. Most breed clubs will have a general policy that dogs who score above the breed average should not be bred from.

The 'evenness' of the score is also important. 10:10 would be a better score than 15:5

[holly]

Hi boyott

it depends too on where exactly the scores are worse adn also what other siblings, parents etc have as scores.

I am doing some reading on HD, hip scoring, sedation vs full anaesthetics and more.

You may find these two links I found today interesting:

BVA means scores

the art of hip reading

and also

hip scores and breed averages in Australia

hip scheme in Australia

hip evaluation resources, excellent links

the way in which your dog was xrayed has a bearing on the score, please see the The Art of Hip reading link, so to what anaesthetic. There are dogs that have been xrayed using full anaesthetic and Failed, only to be rexrayed within a month, using sedation and pass.

Is your dog symptamatic at the moment? I personally would not use a dog that has failed, but others do, there is more to using failed stock then jsut your own dogs score, perhaps you can start your own investigations into your dogs background for hip scores and then make an informed decision.

I had a bitch with a total score of 52, she came from two passed animals, but the dams sister had poor hips and the sire being German, well I will never know as they use a different scheme, the ZW, she was not used in breeding, she was desexed, she also had no problems physically, so if I was a BYB, I would have never have known and just bred from her because she was such a lovely girl, with a sweet disposition. Xraying at least you know part of the gamble you take with polygenic diseases

good luck

Holly

I am heads down, bums up at the moment on this topic :rolleyes:

[byott]

why is it some breeders would breed from dogs of 14 & 20 & Golden retreivers !!!

Just found out my pup has H.D and is only 5 months old

[holly]

Byott, sorry there was not enough information given here the first time. Do you mean, your pup has HD at 5 months of age and you wanted us to comment on the ethics of the breeder using parents that are 14 & 20 in their scores?

If so, firstly, it depends greatly what the sublaxation scores of each were. If your pup has HD with symptoms, going by Dr Willis calculations, those dogs that score for HD by 6months had a marked decrease in hip status over the next 2 years, that is the health of the hipds declined.

I would advise you start to discuss with your vet additives such as Sashas Blend, Glucosomine etc to build what healthy cartilidge there is. Swimming is an excellenty exercise to improve a dogs hips in that it will build up muscle around the hip joint withou causing concussion injuries.

As I said before there are breeders that will use failed stock, there are dogs that are failures, where the breeding partners are chosen wisely and the incident of HD is far less. The puppy I bred with HD, came from a dam with a total hip score of 3:6 and a dog of 4:4. This pup was symptomatic by 10 months of age and is the only one out of 9 pups to be so. Obviously, for some reason, the mating didnt quite click.

A breeder can do everything right and it can still go totally wrong. Have you discussed your feelings with your pups breeder? I hope that they have been more supportive then my breeder was :rolleyes:

Good luck

Holly

[Miranda]

Sorry byott, but can we have some more info please. How do you know that your puppy has HD, is he limping? Has he been x-rayed? If he is showing signs of HD at 5 months it is very likely that he will worsen as he ages, but if you haven't had him x-rayed you can't know for certain.

If he does have HD cartrophen injections can be very helpful combined with glucosamine/chondroitin supplements.

[byott]

Sorry byott, but can we have some more info please.  How do you know that your puppy has HD, is he limping?  Has he been x-rayed?  If he is showing signs of HD at 5 months it is very likely that he will worsen as he ages, but if you haven't had him x-rayed you can't know for certain.

If he does have HD cartrophen injections can be very helpful combined with glucosamine/chondroitin supplements.

Hi miranda,

yes his hips were making a noise when he walked each side. So vet x rayed his hips.

you could see they were not sitting right. the vet said it was H.D shall get them checked out later when hes older. Vet said lucky we found out early.

Have him on sashas blend plus the injections to be given weekly of cartrophen. to watch his diet no walking on lead and shall see how he goes over the next few months.

Ive had goldens befor as pets. Actually only from one time breeders. had no problem with any of them Last one passed on at 14.

This is why i went to a breeder, Who actually advertised on here. Not pet shop or BYB. & now i have this I know things can happen. But the hips scores was not low from the parents to start with. & when i bought my pup i did ask the hip scores & was told the mothers was wrong. But they were not. Any way ive still been waiting on papers e.t.c for 4 months.

Sorry but with some breeders NOT ALL. its quantity not quality. Which is very sad for the poor pups. sorry but not much difference from a BYB and at $900 you would expect better breeding.

Edited May 17, 2005 by byott

[Toohey]

Have you been in touch with the breeder to discuss this? You must do so if not.

Even if they won't accept any responsibility, they need to know for their breeding programme.

This is why i went to a breeder, Not pet shop or BYB. & now i have this I know things can happen. But the hips scores was not low from the parents to start with. & when i bought my pup i did ask the hip scores & was told the mothers was wrong. But they were not.

Byott, this was discussed in great detail in your thread about buying a pedigree pup.

I recall you wanted to get the hip scores for the parents before buying the pup.

Did you in fact get them? And they were wrong?

I'm sorry about your pup. Please discuss your options with the breeder, and find out how much they are able to help you before criticising them too much.

[Miranda]

yes his hips were making a noise when he walked each side. So vet x rayed his hips.

you could see they were not sitting right. the vet said it was H.D shall get them checked out later when hes older. Vet said lucky we found out early.

Oh dear, that's not good at all. You say that the parents scored 14 and 20 which IMO is a little high. Generally if your dog or bitch is close to the breed average (which from memory is 16 in Goldens), you would try to pick a partner whos score is a lot lower than the breed average ie. if the bitch's score is 14 you would look for a mate with a much lower score and vice versa. So if the dam scored 14 and they picked a sire with a score of 20, I think the mating was a little risky to begin with. Personally I wouldn't have purchased a puppy from this litter unless I was very familiar with the lines and knew the hip scores of siblings, grandparents, uncles, aunts etc.

However there are a lot of variables and I certainly wouldn't pass judgement on the breeder without knowing the full story. You really should phone the breeder asap and discuss the situation with him/her.

Please let us know the outcome.

[byott]

Thank you for your pms. I understand its hard saying anything on threads. as lots get there claws out. But thanks all. shall look into what you said

[byott]

If its a Golden Retriever we are talking about, the breed average is 16. Most breed clubs will have a general policy that dogs who score above the breed average should not be bred from.

The 'evenness' of the score is also important. 10:10 would be a better score than 15:5

Hi poodle fan,

Thank you . Yes your right thats what it said on the hip score result form. But some dont seem to care about that.

[byott]

I'm sorry about your pup. Please discuss your options with the breeder, and find out how much they are able to help you before criticising them too much.

Hi Toohey.

yes ive told the breeder. A sorry to hear about your pup may have been nice BUT NOTHING not even a mention of help e.t.c.

But then again i suppose she has other litters to worry about !! & MONEY.

As i said befor to me this is really bad for a breeder of Goldens. This to me shows how much they care about there pups. This is why i went to a breeder in the first place to get a healthy pup with papers which im still waiting on.

For the good breeders out there this is a shame !!

Its people like them that will make buyers go to .BYB Thats all my breeder is as for as im concered. Just in it for the money.

No bloody help at all.

Edited May 17, 2005 by byott

[gusgem]

I definitely would NOT breed from a dog with hip scores any greater than 10 and they have to have good elbows too. Remembering that people should really only breed to better their breed.

I'm so sorry that your pup has HD! Hugs and kisses coming your way!

[byott]

I definitely would NOT breed from a dog with hip scores any greater than 10 and they have to have good elbows too. Remembering that people should really only breed to better their breed.

I'm so sorry that your pup has HD! Hugs and kisses coming your way!

Thank you Gusgem.

yes your right breeders should only breed to better the breed. This one is only in it for the MONEY. Yes the hip scores were high. I was told a lie.

Could not care less about the pup after. With all the litters she has had recently and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ made. and not even an offer of any kind of help.

I would have more sympathy taking a stuff TOY back to K.mart.

I think she is an utter disgrace to golden retreiver Breeders & the buyers

What ya see is what ya get . I DONT THINK SO

[Basil]

No, what you see is not what you get, especially in regard to dogs.

I am sorry this happened, but am wondering how well you researched this breeder?

Did you ask around, or maybe go to shows? Did you look into this breeder's track record? Maybe find out through the breed club what their reputation was?

It does pay to do your research, but too little too late I know.

How long did you wait for a pup to become available?

I don't think that running the breeder down on this forum is going to help your situation, so why not put your energies into concentrating on getting your dog the best treatment possible and giving him a relatively healthy life.

Good luck with him.

Edited May 17, 2005 by Basil

[goldielover]

Hi there Byott,

Firstly, i'd like to say that i'm very sorry to hear about your dog. My first Golden had HD, OCD, you name it, she had it!

Our (Golden) breed average is 16 - 19 (depending on what you read and who you listen to), so either of those hip scores really aren't too bad. Personally if i was mating a dog with a hip score of 20, i probably would have used a dog with a lower hip score as a mate, but what your breeder has done certainly isn't unheard of.

One thing i think needs to be mentioned is that the combination of genes resulting from a single mating runs into the thousands. All of your dogs' ancestors genes come into play. Your breeder may have fully researched your dogs grand parents, great-grandparents, etc., and have all available hip score information, but still genetics will throw problems here and there. It is not totally beyond our control (we x-ray hips, have hearts and eyes checked), but somewhere along the line there's been a problem that nobody has picked up. I know of someone else this has happened to recently. An acquaintence bought a dog for show/obedience. Both parents, grandparents, etc had good hip scores, but this dog threw a hip score of 40 at 1 year of age!!!! This was devastating for the person concerned, but there had been no instances of HD in the past. The sire has sired dozens of litters with no problems.

So, while your breeder may have known about problems in the past, it's also possible that she honestly had no idea despite doing her research. Morally & ethically though, i would have expected her to either offer you a replacement puppy or refund part or all of your money. Perhaps it's worth phoning her again, rationally... be polite and don't accuse her of anything - just discuss your options.

Anyway good luck!

Jen