Smb091 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 Hi all, As the title suggests, a grade 4 heart murmur has been detected in our 5 month old Lab. Background The murmur was first detected at the end of November by our regular vet. At this point in time it was grades as a 2. They scheduled another check up in a month. A week later our puppy had an allergic reaction and was taken to emergency where they also picked up the murmur and rated it a 2. Fast forward to yesterday, the murmur has been upgraded to a 4 and the vet has requested we get an ultrasound done asap. We are panicking and are really worried. Losing her would be absolutely devastating as we love her very much and she is the first dog in our very young family. The Breeder To be fair, the breeder has been really good. They were very upset when we first mentioned the murmur when is was detected and immediatelt did checks on their dogs which came back as all clear. They obviously had no idea about the murmur and said they've never had any issues at all with previous litters. We spoke to them yesterday and they told us they will offer a full refund or replacement puppy for return of our puppy but for us this just isn't an option. We obviously still don't know what the underlying disease is but yeah, they have offered that at least. General Info She is a beautiful, energetic and spirited puppy. If you saw her, you'd have absolutely no idea she had this issue. She has been loved and really is a big part of not just our family (my wife and I) but our extended family. Questions 1. Has anyone had experience with this? What are we facing? Our ultrasound is booked for Tuesday but the wait with no answers is killing me. 2. Has the breeder been reasonable? Should I be asking for more? The dogs are already pregnant and due in 2 weeks with another litter, is this concerning? Appreciate any help that can be provided. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 I can't help with 1. As for 2. Yes the breeder has been reasonable. But I would have returned the purchase price to you anyway. But I am under no legal obligation to do so without requesting return of puppy. How long had you had the pup before finding out about the murmur? It is possible the pup did not have a murmur when checked by the breeders vet. As for another litter on the way, is it the same parents? A back to back litter for the dam is permissible under certain rules laid down by the governing state body, assuming your pup is from a registered ANKC breeder. Good luck on Tuesday. Fingers crossed for your family and little girl. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smb091 Posted January 6, 2019 Author Share Posted January 6, 2019 Thanks for the reply. i thought that was the case. Of course, I wouldn't imagine there'd be too many people willing to return a puppy after having them at home for 3-4 months! I certainly can't do it and the thought alone makes me really upset. we had the pup about 6 weeks before the murmur was detected. To be fair, our vet also missed it upon the 72 hour check up and the first vaccination. She had another issue that we took her to the vet for which is where they picked it up. thanks for the info regarding the breeding. fingers crossed all goes well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pjrt Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) Could it be Tricuspid Valve Dysplasia added a couple of general info links. Link Link Edited January 6, 2019 by Scratch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smb091 Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 Thanks. whats really interesting is that they are both diseases passed down by the parents. the breeder has already mated and has a litter on the way. After originally notifying them, they said they "checked" the dogs and they were all clear however what "checked" means to me is actually doing an ultra sound to guarantee they aren't breeding dogs with genetic issues. im assuming the information I have could potentially stuff up their entire next litter. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smb091 Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 Sorry, when I mentioned "they both", the vet also had a disease he thought it could most likely be and said it would be passed down by the parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pjrt Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, Smb091 said: Thanks. whats really interesting is that they are both diseases passed down by the parents. the breeder has already mated and has a litter on the way. After originally notifying them, they said they "checked" the dogs and they were all clear however what "checked" means to me is actually doing an ultra sound to guarantee they aren't breeding dogs with genetic issues. im assuming the information I have could potentially stuff up their entire next litter. Thoughts? I think the best thing at the moment is to love your puppy and wait until you have a definitive diagnosis. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smb091 Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 Scratch - you are right. My puppy is currently with me at my aunties place, harassing her 11 and 12 year old Labs who just want to chill out and relax! I better to get her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 If your vet hasn't already suggested it, if the puppy were mine, I think I'd be raising the question of maybe a referral to a vet cardiologist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smb091 Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 Hi Tassie, our puppy is going in for the ultrasound tomorrow. So far the vet has said he will review the results and if he can determine the cause of the murmur clearly without doubt then he will, otherwise we'll be off to a cardiologist. Here in Melbourne there are several very good ones, not looking forward to the bill though!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 (edited) I would be just asking to go to a cardio specialist ,your already forking out money .Go to the specialist get the right answers & go from there . The breeder has done the right things .We would offer a refund BUT after a specialist vet has given a correct answer ,sadly too many vets get it wrong ,owners ring in panic ,vet says it has this ,its a breeding issue & then it turns out a whole different thing . Do people return there pups ,yes many do because the heartbreak is easier now than long term especially if children are involved . Heart murmurs happen ,there is nothing to say any pups from the next litter will get them . Just like humans why does one child end up with a heart condition & the others don't & there is no family history . Out of curiosty is this pup smaller than average Edited January 7, 2019 by Dogsfevr 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juice Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I agree about going straight to a specialist , why pay for a consult , ultrasound etc when there is a fair chance the specialist will do it all again anyway . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smb091 Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 Too late for that now, ultrasound is tomorrow morning. I'll go through with it and see what the outcome is. My vet is a surgeon himself, and has had a lot of experience in cardiac issues although he specialised in dental and oral care. I trust he'll do his best and if not refer me to the right place. That's all I can hope for right now. Our pup is perfectly healthy. Weight is spot on, she's normal size, highly active, very obedient. That's why this came as a shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Good luck with your appointment today, and yes, you are fortunate being in Melbourne with lots of great specialists in various fields. Down here in Tassie, for the really specialist stuff, we're reliant on visits from mainland specialists who come down every 6 weeks or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smb091 Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 Scratch looks like you are right, our pup has the very rare Tricuspid Valve disease. At this stage we aren't exactly sure how severe it is. Our vet will read the full report tomorrow and also call the top cardiac surgeon in Victoria to discuss. I have a feeling it won't be good and based on my research, I don't see our pup last much longer then a few years. Also bad news for the breeder as the vet said this disease is passed on my either one of the parents although the parents may only have a very mild case. Will need to give them a call do deliver the bad news as well. Our only hope now is that it isn't too severe and won't impact on her quality of life too badly. Thank you all for your help 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smb091 Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 An update regarding Our puppies condition. The vet (and specialist) have advised that her condition is mild to moderate meaning she is not under any impending risk of having a heart attack. However, there is no direct link between the severity of the condition and the chances of Hazel having a heart attack. So basically, we still have no idea! The vet said this case is so rare, they just don't have the data to confirm without doubt how long it could be. The specialist advised that he only sees 3-4 cases per year, and they are all completely unique The vet did explain the clinical symptoms that will become obvious once it does become really serious. Once this happens, she will go on medication, and from this point she won't live any longer then 6-12 months to. The main thing we need to monitor is her breathing, any signs of a cough developing and also ensure she does not put on any excess weight. Id love to get in touch with anyone who had experienced this condition before so if you know anyone, please pass on their details. Here is a pic of our little girl, thank you to everyone who has taken the time to help us out. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 I would ask the vet if they can do a written report for the breeder . As this is rare and unique and obviously depending on the breeder themselves this will be a big learning curve for them . A written . report gives them correct details and the ability to go talk with there vet and go from there . Although this is a hard thing for Lab breeders due to no real testing except getting the parents heart checked each year but they can be no signs until later age 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PANDI-GIRL Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Hi @Smb091 How is sweet puppy Hazel going , is her heart health getting better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smb091 Posted December 30, 2019 Author Share Posted December 30, 2019 Hi all, my sincerest apologies for not providing an update sooner. Today we had to rush Hazel to the vet as she had gotten extremely swollen in her stomach and wasn't eating. Turns out she had half a litre of fluid backed up in her stomach which is the first sign that she is going into heart failure. The fluid has been removed and she will be on x4 types of heavy medication for however long we have her with us. x2 medications are for the fluid build up and x2 to try and lower the strain on her heart. The cardiologist is expecting her to live on for another 12 or so months before he thinks her condition will deteriorate to the point where we'll need to decide if we want to keep on going. Exercise will be limited as we can't put too much stress on her heart. Prognosis from here isn't great, apparently it can be a long drawn out decline. A bit doom and gloom however that's the situation we find ourselves in. a tough day, but we love her and will do everything in our physical control to keep her with us for as long as she is comfortable. 2 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 Hazel is very lucky to have you 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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