Pulling And Pulling

[Kavik]

Yes that Suzanne Clothier article was interesting, here is the link:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/pposa.html

I am also a balanced trainer, and love to learn new training techniques or ideas.

[Guest trainer47]

This is just for the first week. We are taching the dog that is has to watch us. The dog needs to be responsible for it's own actions, like I said. We teach the dog to WATCH, not listen to where we are. After that first week, we use praise to reenforce the "heel" position. Unless you are willing to go to a course and watch what the instructors are teaching you will never understand the basis behind what Koehler is teaching.

It's not that Koehler people are close minded, we just have found the method that works best for us. It should not be about picking apart the other methods, we are just trying to defend our method which seems to put to a lot of condemnation. People take it out of context and use that against the method. You have to look at the whole picture. Like was said, praise is what IS used most!

[Kavik]

Still, you guys yourself are admitting you are not praising the dog AT ALL yet you are correcting the dog when not in the right position. I am not twisting your words at all. Does not sound very positive. And PGM is saying it is positive.

Most people when they talk about positive mean verbal, physical praise and food/toy rewards. I don't see any of that in your posts.

[pgm]

Kavik, this will sound counterintuitive, but the first week of training is not about teaching the heel position. Strange as it may sound, it is one of the reasons that the method is so effective. The dog takes up the heel position of its own choice, the dog chooses to walk next to the handler. Remember the long line is fifteen foot long, the dog can walk anywhere within that radius. Why does the dog choose to walk next to the handler? Because that is the best place for the dog to keep an eye on where the handler is going. Its about teaching the foundation for all learning - attention to the handler. The handler does not say 'come on let's go here', he simply goes to where he is going: the dog follows, thus establishing the leader follower relationship within five minutes of training. It will take most dogs about 2 or 3 times getting caught before their attention becomes riveted on the handler. After that only distractions will take that focus away - and after they have been caught out a few times with distractions you will find it hard if not impossible to catch them out again.

Now let me address your comment about it not being at all positive. Consider some of the examples given on this forum lately regarding the problem of pulling. Many people take many weeks, if not months (in some cases it has been reported 18 months) trying to teach their dog not to pull, all during that time the dog is continually pulling on the lead and being brought to an abrupt halt by the handler stopping until such time as the behavior is learnt. I would be willing to wager that far less negative reinforcement occurs with the Koehler method than does with many of the other methods suggested on this forum. Why? Because the majority of dogs will stop pulling within the time it takes you to complete the first lesson. After that they will be walking on a loose leash watching the handler attentively without any pulling, unless distracted. Once they are caught out a few times with distractions, that will be it - you will have to work damn hard, and find some pretty big distractions to ever catch them out again.

So no, you are right about not using positive reinforcement in the first week. It is introduced in the second week when Koehler introduces the 'heel' command. But, as I said, I will still wager that the method uses far less negative reinforcment than most others. It is no good saying that you are not deliberately using negative reinforcement - every time the dog pulls or strains on the leash negative reinforcemnt is happening whether it is used deliberately or not.

The Koehler method is simply using it to its advantage and uses it far less than other methods for the simple reason that the dog stops pulling immediately. From my perspective that is far kinder (and more positive) to the dog than to spend weeks or months (where negative reinforcement is occuring all the time) trying to teach something that can be taught within twenty minutes.

[pgm]

Oh, btw I forgot to ask, do you work in Australia, trainer47 ?

[Guest trainer47]

No, I am in the US.

[Guest trainer47]

I came to this forum actually looking for opinions about Koehler.

[pgm]

Kavik, to add to what Trainer47 said. Nothing is said during the first week of trsaining. After that positive reinforcement is used continually for every exercise taught including heel. Here is an example: to teach the sit, the trainer is told to gently place the dog into position and then praise. One is instructed to repeat this process over four days in different locations with about 200 repetitions all with positive reinforcement. On the fifth day one is told to give the command without placing the dog. If the dogs sits, you praise, if it doesn't you correct. Thats 200 hundred repetitions of positive reinforcement against one instance of correction.

How many times have I had to correct my dog for failing to sit? Once. How many times have I praised my dog for sitting after said correction: many, many, many, many, many times, too many to remember. Every exercise that Koehler teaches (with the sole exception of the first week's work) follows the same pattern of positive reinforcement versus correction.

[pgm]

No, I am in the US.

That's a pity, I don't know of anyone in Australia who teaches Koehler as per the book. The only trainers I know that teach it are like yourself, in USA.

Damn....

[Guest trainer47]

So, PGM, how did you get invoved in Koehler?

[pgm]

I read Vicki Hearne's "Adam's Task: Calling Animals by Name", immediately understood and related to what she wrote. Sometime after that I got a dog, looked up Hearne to remember who she was referring to and ordered the book from Amazon. Trained him on my own straight from the book, worked like a charm. Now working through the Koehler Utility book. Hope to start trialling in another month or so.

[Guest trainer47]

I'll have to checkout that book. Is that where you did your novice training? Or did you get reference to Koehler from that book? You are well versed in Koehler obedience!

[pgm]

Hearne was a philosopher and dog and horse trainer. Her book is a philosophical account of training animals, not a 'how to manual'. She passed away recently. She was a good friend of Dick Koehler. I learnt a lot about the method (in particular its philosophical grounding) through her book. I have learnt lots more on a yahoo list called 'Balanced Trainers'. The list is run by Margot Woods, who also worked with Koehler. Lots of great trainers on there as well as a few old time Koehler trainers. Check it out if you haven't already, its a great list.

[Rusky]

Koehler is not cruel and abusive, though you can certainly make him appear to be so by quoting him out of context. Such misrepresentation is found all over the internet.

Would you prefer that I quote puppy toilet training which involves spanking with a switch or strap and holding his head to the mess. Maybe the older dog who messes inside by giving a hard spanking whilst leaving tied to the mess then returning at 20 minute intervals and punish the dog again, 'pour on the punishment' every 20 minutes.

Barbaric and cruel.

Tell me which excersie you would like me to quote, you can cross check in your book that I do not lie or exagerate.

I really wish you would have a look at other methods, training should be fun for you and your dog.

I am not suggesting you personally hang your dog or beat your dog but you follow the training methods of someone who most definitely did and had a long following for a long time.

I thank God that at least more and more people are using positives with treats and cuddles.

[pgm]

Would you prefer that I quote puppy toilet training

No, I would prefer you to do as I suggested. Quote him in context. I have already quoted the introduction - what did you not understand?

Now here is the first paragraph of the small section at the back of the book titled "Problems":

"You have already learned one reason why this book maintains that your dog should be trained in his basic obedience BEFORE you make a direct approach to specific problems..."

This comes on page 175 of a book containing 207 pages. What about the other 174 pages that occur before this section - have you forgotten to read them? - did you fall asleep and then suddenly wake up on page 175? I mean if even you did wake up on page 175, surely the first paragraph would suggest that might have missed something?

But wait! Here is the introduction to puppy training in the section titled 'Problems':

"Carefully observe your pup's digestive cycle. Try to work out a regular schedule of feeding that will permit you to take the pup out about the time he generally needs an airing, and you'll be taking advantage of the pup's instincts for cleaniless. The less YOUR CARELESSNESS forces him to violate his precepts of cleanliness, the more control he will develop...The second consideration in the housebreaking of a puppy is the practise of close confinement when he's out ofd your sight. Whenever possible, keep him in view when he's in the house, so you'll see the signs of his need, and be able to take him outdoors....When you must be out of sight of the pup, don't leave him to his own devices before he is housebroken. Confine him in a dog crate of the proper size so that he would be soiling the area in which he is held. Dogs as a rule don't like to be in close proximity to the mess they make and will restrain themselves until they are let out."

I could go on, there is five paragraphs of similar advice before any mention is made of dealing with those dogs that for some reason or another do not respond to normal methods of housebreaking - such dogs are in danger of losing their home and ending up at the pound where they stand a good chance of being pts. But I guess you would prefer that they be put to sleep rather than using harsher methods to deal with what is for many people (not me or you or anyone on this forum) a serious problem that can often end in abandonment.

Tell me which excersie you would like me to quote, you can cross check in your book that I do not lie or exagerate.

No, you do not lie or exagerate - you do something much worse, you continually quote out of context in order to portray Koehler in the worse possible light.

I am not suggesting you personally hang your dog or beat your dog but you follow the training methods of someone who most definitely did

You are quite correct, I did follow his method, exactly as he wrote it, WITHOUT A SINGLE OMISSION. And no, I have never hung or beat my dog, haven't even yelled at it. Gee, that's funny, maybe I missed something...Then again, maybe I am able to read and comprehend simple English...

I thank God that at least more and more people are using positives with treats and cuddles.

And it a good thing too - people who are unable to read and comprehend simple English shouldn't even consider Koehler...

Edited May 26, 2005 by pgm

[Guest trainer47]

For those opposed to Koehler, I just want to say that Koehler is a lot like the other training methods out there. Only, where those fail, we can take over and correct the problem. I don't know of any other training method that is WILLING to take a seriously aggressive dog and work with it. We are the last resort for problem dogs all over and after we solve the problem no one else wants to deal with the dog and owner have a very nice life together. If those problems don't get solved, the dog ends up in the pound only perpetuating the problem in another household. Or worse, put to sleep! Our "normal run of the mill training" is simple and direct. Only those severe cases where more is needed tend to be taken out of context and critisized. That is not what all our training is about! So, then, can we agree to disagree? :rolleyes:

[Kavik]

We can certainly agree to disagree :rolleyes:

I happen to think that for the average pet owner without a major problem dog that there are other methods to use that are successful.

Like I said before, I just want people to have a look at various methods and research the one they use and find one they are comfortable with. Many people are not comfortable with Koehler. People should be comfortable with the method they choose.

Interestingly, I have not found an ANKC obedience club that uses Koehler methods. The competition clubs I have been to have all used a combination of praise, food, toys, games and check chains. It is becoming increasingly difficult to find a club that even lets you use a check chain.

[Guest trainer47]

I do also think people should use what they are comfortable with. i think trainers should support each other instead of attack. We could all benefit from tolerance.

As far as "check chains" (we call them training collars in the U.S.) we don't seem to have a problem with clubs accepting them. funny how things differ.

[Kavik]

I'm also pretty sure that pinch collars are not allowed at any ANKC obedience club, but they seem to be more widely accepted in the USA. Electric collars are also not accepted here, but seem more acceptable there.

It certainly is interesting to see the difference in the countries.

Also interesting because I am pretty sure that most of the 'purely positive' methods were also started over there?

[KateH]

Wow. I didn't mean to start a minor controversy.

pgm, I think you've defended the method quite well, I still don't know if it would work for me for various reasons. I'm willing to read the book, as I said, I'm just unsure I could implement the method consistently. In the meantime, I am seeing results with my dog. Perhaps not instantaneous, but I wasn't expecting that. She has very few behavioural issues other than over-excitement, and frankly, I knew what I was getting in for when I bought a GSP.

As Kavik says, each to our own; as a newbie to dog training (though I've been around dogs my whole life, just not as the tariner) it can be very difficult to sort out what you should and shouldn't do. Everyone tells you something different. What seems to work for certain people doesn't seem to work for you.

What to do? Read and learn. So as a newbie, I'd just say that I am trying to do the best thing for my dog in the most ethical and humane way that I can. If I don't agree with one method, I'll try another.

It's been interesting reading what people wrote in this post. I think I'm learning a lot from these forums, even if I disagree with some things.