Pulling And Pulling

[Kavik]

One of my dogs does not offer new behaviours either, but is great once she knows what you want! You can break behaviours down into small components and reward for tiny increments, such as looking at the thing you want her to interact with or moving at all closer.

As for verbal praise - when clicker training (I don't use clickers for everything - actually I am very new to it and still getting the hang of it!)

I use praise as an encouragement that they are going in the right direction but I want them to continue. For example I am teaching the retrieve with the clicker. Teaching Diesel to calmly hold it has been the most difficult part. I use praise when he is holding the dumbell but I want him to continue holding. I use the clicker when I want him to stop the behaviour (when he has held it for as long as I want in that session).

Does that make sense?

[Guest trainer47]

Yes, thank you for your time!

[pgm]

One of my dogs does not offer new behaviours either, but is great once she knows what you want!

Do you think that maybe some dogs are not comfortable with thinking and making decisions for themselves, hence do not respond as well to the clicker as others, especially those that have been introduced to the clicker as puppy's?

It was my impression that it is the Alpha dog that makes all the decisions whereas the others follow. Maybe this explains why some dogs don't respond as well. Also why maybe dogs respond better if they are introduced as puppy's.

[Guest Tess32]

Do you think that maybe some dogs are not comfortable with thinking and making decisions for themselves, hence do not respond as well to the clicker as others, especially those that have been introduced to the clicker as puppy's?

It was my impression that it is the Alpha dog that makes all the decisions whereas the others follow. Maybe this explains why some dogs don't respond as well. Also why maybe dogs respond better if they are introduced as puppy's.

I do, but I'd suggest a lot of people would 'give up' trying on a dog like that so it's hard to tell if they ever do really 'click' (pardon the pun) and start to think for themselves.

However I don't see how it's related to alpha status? I don't feel as if the dog is

really making a decision as such, they are just choosing a behaviour out of their repetoir that they think might earn them a treat. The same dog might go up and offer a toy to play with so I don't believe it's all down to feeling as if they are being being presumptious to offer behaviours to the alpha.

My second dog now just does not understand yet that to get a treat she has to actually *do* something and she does not offer any behaviours, she simply shuts down and gives up. Is this simply what happens to a submissive dog when they have never been taught anything?

On the other hand she does not take well at *all* to compulsion methods either or being physically placed.

That doesn't leave much!

Nat

[Kavik]

With my dog who doesn't offer behaviours I don't think this is the case. She will happily offer behaviours that she already knows earn rewards (she will cycle through them all if she is unsure - quite funny to watch!) - so I'm sure that if she was introduced as a pup she would be really good with the clicker.

But because I've mostly lured her, she will happily follow my hand or a treat, but it takes her a while to realise she has to do something for a treat that is unrelated (I don't think I worded that at all well!).

I have taught her to target my hand and to shake using the clicker, but I sort of cheated getting her started (getting her to realise that it was the hand/paw I wanted) as she would not do it on her own. Once she realised even a little what was wanted, she was off and running.

[Denis Carthy]

pgm

Compelling or just guiding? Why is using your hands to guide the dog into position, thus showing the dog what to do called compulsion?

Denis

This is why the words are used for commercial persuasion – ‘compulsion’ in any normal meaning of the sense is ‘force’ it means ‘punishment’, operant punishment means:

‘The animal itself perceives something is removed’,….it means NOTHING MORE THAN THAT.

By physicaly placing a dog in a sit, in the very early stages of ‘teaching’, you have removed the dogs freedom of movement, BUT, used in a commercially persuasive way many pet owners ‘feel’ bad if you tell them “You should not ‘punish’ your dog”, they equate the word with retribution and cruelty NOT with its operant meaning.

In a more common context, if a class of 25 school kids sit an exam and all 25 want and expect to be top of class and then only 1 pupil gets top, you have removed the ‘expectation’ of ‘status’ and other individual ‘good feelings’ from 24 kids.

So in the operant sense, which is what 'positive trainers' claim they are, 24 of the 25 kids have been punished because their expectation of their ability and goal of being No1 was removed.

Edited June 5, 2005 by Denis Carthy

[Staranais]

OK, a question for Kavik then...

Clicker training is about giving the dog choices... The dog always has the option with clicker training not to do what you want.

I'm wondering - what exactly is the benefit of giving the dog a choice whether to obey a command or not?

If a dog thinks he has the option to disobey, then he'll only obey when he feels like it. Isn't that just making your dog unreliable?

I mean, if Monsta's chasing a cat towards the road, I want him to come back when I call. I don't want him to think he has a choice, in case he chooses wrong and gets hurt by a car!

Genuine question - thanks in advance :rolleyes:

[Guest Tess32]

Sorry, I want to answer :rolleyes:

The clicker is only used in the learning stage - it's not about a "command" that can be disobeyed because the command isn't really known yet. Clicker is JUST a way of accurately reinforcing a behaviour by marking that moment. It will not necessarily dictate how you choose to proof that behaviour and whether or not that includes corrections.

I would prefer it to the luring method in some situations simply because the dog *is* thinking - and I believe that makes the behaviour stronger initially, more ingrained.

But it all depends on the dog and so on.

Nat

[Kavik]

Yes the interesting thing is that you don't actually give a command until the dog is doing what you want - that was hard at first as I am so used to giving the command as you teach.

What I have found with luring (what I have used more often in the past) is that it makes the dog very focused on my hand - Zoe will follow my hand and stare at it. It makes teaching some things very difficult (such as jumping through your arms) - I still haven't worked out how to teach that without an assistant to help as she will just stand staring at my hand!

Clicker training is more about getting the dog to display new behaviours and experiment. The tricky thing I am finding is making sure you reinforce the right thing! While teaching retrieving I accidentally taught Diesel to throw the dumbell! He would reach for and rip the dumbell out of my hand and then hurl it across the room! I had to backtrack then for the hold.

At the moment I am only just starting with clicker training and only use it for a few things, still finding my feet with it really.

[Kavik]

double post

Edited June 5, 2005 by Kavik

[Guest trainer47]

[

My second dog now just does not understand yet that to get a treat she has to actually *do* something and she does not offer any behaviours, she simply shuts down and gives up. Is this simply what happens to a submissive dog when they have never been taught anything?

On the other hand she does not take well at *all* to compulsion methods either or being physically placed.

That doesn't leave much!

Nat

I have a dog that does not "take well" to pretty much anything. She also shuts down and becomes very submissive even when offering treats for performance. I cannot get her out of her shell for anything. She literally rolls up into a ball. But, even though she does not like it, she can gain control of herself with physical placement. Because even though it is uncomfortable, it is very clear to her EXACTLY what I want her to do. so, for obedience, I use "compulsion". But I thought I would try a different method for other behaviors. It is very slow going and I'm not sure how well we will do. But, I have lots of patience so, we'll see.

[Staranais]

The clicker is only used in the learning stage... It will not necessarily dictate how you choose to proof that behaviour and whether or not that includes corrections.

Ah thanks Tess. Then I think we're on the same page - I teach him new commands with a clicker and R+/P- only, but once he's learned the command I'll proof with verbal/physical correction.