Pulling And Pulling

[m-j]

Oh well what ever

Why not go further and ask me what Koehler would advise for someone in a coma who had an out of control dog? I mean please - can you get any sillier?

Lucky i didn't have that attitude when those people came to me for help and I have helped.

[Guest trainer47]

and I do instruct at a compulsion training club (physical ie check chains and verbal corrections/reprimands with praise)

I'm sorry, I don't know what a "compulson club" is. Does that mean just that you use corrctions? I don't understand the word "compulsion" in this context.

[Kavik]

My guess is MJ means a club where the dogs are placed into position physically, receive verbal and physical praise for doing the right thing, and verbal and physical corrections if the command is not followed (once the dog understands what is wanted).

As opposed to a club where dogs are lured/shaped into positions with food/toys, use a food/toy/praise/petting reward.

[m-j]

My guess is MJ means a club where the dogs are placed into position physically, receive verbal and physical praise for doing the right thing, and verbal and physical corrections if the command is not followed (once the dog understands what is wanted).

As opposed to a club where dogs are lured/shaped into positions with food/toys, use a food/toy/praise/petting reward.

Yep Kavik got it in one

Sorry I didn't explain properly trainer 47 that's the trouble with trying to explain everything you want to say by typing in as fewer words as possible

cheers

M-J

[Guest trainer47]

Thanks, now I know what "method" it is. But I still don't understand why it is called "compulsion". Can you explain that?

I just want to say, too, that the time difference is interesting. It's only 11:30am here (6-3) and most of you are probably sleeping! I think I calculated a 15 hour difference! That's all!

Edited June 3, 2005 by trainer47

[Denis Carthy]

Amhailte

Since the general public normally think of "positive" as meaning "good" or "nice", then I guess calling yourself "positive" is a good marketing ploy

Denis

Of all the statements on all the boards - you have sumed it up in one sentance - 'positive training' is a commercialy term for a 'product', it means nothing else, it's not a method of training, it's a product.

Edited June 3, 2005 by Denis Carthy

[Kavik]

To show that I really think there are several factors involved in what method is best for you, I know that I will alter my training method depending on what sport I plan on doing with my dog.

Dog 1 (Diesel) - competitive obedience

* I use food/toy/praise/petting rewards

* I use luring/shaping to teach a position, have physically placed a few times so he is comfortable with that too

* I use luring/shaping to teach new complex tasks such as retrieving, return to heel position - learning use of clicker

* I use a check chain or martingale for control/physical corrections where necessary

* atm I use a cotton lead as it is lightweight and easy to fold in hand for subtle corrections/fingtertip control

Dog 2 (future - probably kelpie) - agility

* will use food/toys/praise petting reward

* will use luring/shaping to teach a position and new tasks - probably with more emphasis on clicker training

* not so much emphasis on staying with me or on left side

* will use flat collar, possibly martingale or head collar if control while waiting in line needed (no agility club allows check chains)

Dog 3 (future - Malinois or GSD) - Schutzhund

* not sure if they use food/toys but assume they do from what I have read

* will use a combination of methods to teach positions, including physically placing

* from what I have read, a lot use force fetch, but motivational retrieve heard of, not sure what I will use there

* will use check chain or pinch collar for control/corrections

* will use leather wide flat collar and leash for safety and control

[haven]

Compulsion training is called thus because you are compelling the dog to comply. Examples include placing a dog into a sit or correcting into a sit.

This is the opposite of 'inducement' where you might use a food lure to cause the dog to sit.

[pgm]

Compulsion training is called thus because you are compelling the dog to comply.

Compelling or just guiding? Why is using your hands to guide the dog into position, thus showing the dog what to do called compulsion?

Think of ballet teacher using her hands to show a young child the correct placement of arms and legs - do we think of this as compulsion?

For sure, some dogs will resist physical placement and in those cases I am happy to call it compulsion. But as the majority of dogs wont show much if any resistence to the handler using their hands to guide them into the correct position I am less happy to call that compulsion. In most cases it is simply showing the dog what to do by guiding it into position.

[haven]

Compelling or just guiding? Why is using your hands to guide the dog into position, thus showing the dog what to do called compulsion?

Placing and guiding are mild forms of compulsion. Compulsion is to force or drive, especially to a course of action.

It is the correct terminology, don't get confused by the perceived 'negative' association with the term.

Yes you are showing the dog the correct behaviour, but you are also not giving the option to not comply, thus it is a method of compulsion.

[Staranais]

So by "compulsion" you just mean that the dog has no choice whether to obey?

As opposed to "inducement" meaning you try to encourage the dog to obey, but it's ultimately the dog's choice?

I guess that means a lot of "positive" clubs use compulsion training too then, even if they don't call it that. I mean, even if you're just reeling a dog in on a long line to teach it recall, you're still compelling it to come.

[Guest trainer47]

That is a good point. If, by definition, that is what it means then most forms of training could be defined as "compulsion". Even ignoring any negative connotations. Interesting.

[Guest lolli]

So by "compulsion" you just mean that the dog has no choice whether to obey?

As opposed to "inducement" meaning you try to encourage the dog to obey, but it's ultimately the dog's choice?

Isn't it the goal to have the dog know that they have no choice but to obey? Wouldn't it be counterproductive to give the dog the opportunity to disobey? I definately want my dog to listen if given a command like "come" for example.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for encouragement. I just think the dog should not have the chance to form behaviors that encourage disobedience. So, I guess that would more put me under the catagory of "compulsion"

And sorry, i don't have this quote thing down yet!

Edited June 4, 2005 by lolli

[Kavik]

Clicker training is about giving the dog choices - you wait for the dog to offer the behaviour you want, without luring (if you are hardcore!). The dog always has the option with clicker training not to do what you want. That is what made it frustrating for me when I started .

[Guest trainer47]

so, how do you get them to offer the behavior you want? And how long before you get comfortable with that mindset? :rolleyes:

Edited June 5, 2005 by trainer47

[Kavik]

You can either wait for them to do it by themselves and 'capture' it or you can add something that will act as a cue and make them want to do it (or investigate the object you want them to interact with).

Often you want them to interact with something - your hand, the dumbell, a targetting stick.

Well lets take teaching 'shake' as an example (I got Diesel to do this in one session)

(Assuming your dog knows click = treat)

* I put my hand, palm up, on the floor.

*When dog goes to investigate hand, click and treat

* Once dog doing this reliably, only click when paw comes ner hand

* then only when paw is on hand

* then raise hand a bit

* eventually you can have your hand at any height and the dog should paw your hand and you have taught 'shake'

It can be frustrating if you have a dog that does not offer new behaviours.

[Guest trainer47]

Ok, Kavik, I am not familiar with execution of click and treat. I understand the concept, but how do you get the dog to understand click=treat or click=good behavior?

Edited June 5, 2005 by trainer47

[Kavik]

You can start out with just clicking the clicker (that sounds funny!) and then give the dog a treat so the dog builds the association between the sound of the clicker and the reward. Once the dog knows this you can progress to teaching behaviours.

The click is a reward marker and shows the dog the exact instant it was doing what you wanted - it generally also stops the behaviour (the dog stops what it was doing and turns to you for a treat).

[Guest trainer47]

So, I have a dog that is pretty neurotic. She has a lot of trust issues. So, in turn does NOT offer new behaviors. Then what? I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to test you or anything. I am very interested. I am just not familiar with how to go about doing this. Thanks for being patient! :rolleyes:

[Guest trainer47]

I am also a verbal praiser. Do you praise the behavior as well? Or is the clicker all the "praise" the dog needs?