Pulling And Pulling

[Rusky]

PGM

We will never agree, I disagree from the start, heeling, sitting, anying.

I do not like jerk around the neck.

I do not like the harsh methods of training.

I am thankful that these days few clubs use this method.

I am satisfied at least with that.

I wish I could encourage you to try other ongoing methods.

I keep wondering why you think I might be illiterate.

I think we may have the same edition of the book and my concerns start on page 29 with penning, or chaining so the release will signify a release from prison :rolleyes:

My concerns continue both in the book and previously from trainers who used that method.

The idea of new dog owners using the book to train their dogs is scary to me, maybe is comforting for you.

We are all different.

[Kavik]

I enjoy the fact that I can make obedience training a game as much as any 'trick' training :rolleyes:

[Rusky]

I enjoy the fact that I can make obedience training a game as much as any 'trick' training

yes it is a game, should be fun, I constantly look for fun elements to use to include in training.

I finally have a clicker as I was trying out with a clicky frog before :rolleyes:

one of my own dogs has always responded to the squeeky toy with great excitement and I encourage male owners who sometimes cannot get the intonation into their praise to use a 'squeek' from the pocket.

Finally the penny dropped that it is then but a step away from clicker training. I am enjoying reading, watching others train and a wee bit of practice myself.

A lot more research and practice needed.

[Guest trainer47]

I do not like jerk around the neck.

I do not like the harsh methods of training.

I am thankful that these days few clubs use this method.

maybe is comforting to you

Rusky, it bothers me that even though we are callling a "truce" you still have to get your "digs" in. I think it is obvious how you feel about Koehler.

You don't need to add those little snide comments also.

Like I said, maybe we should just agree to disagree. And LEAVE it as that.

[Rusky]

Trainer I have no disagreement with you my response was to PGM.

Since you decided to reply to me...

I am not posting snide comments I am posting an opinion on a training method I do not like. I think I have already given enough reasons. I did have a concern that PGM thought I may not understand enough to read English. I can read English and I do understand the text.

I remember too when chokers name was changed to check chain and then to training collar here in Australia. There are many people still use check chains even in training class though now many trainers prefer that they are not used. Most clubs here now do have a policy about chains.

You said you came here to find peoples opinions on the method of training, well at least you have mine and PGM's.

[haven]

I'm curious, for those of you that don't use a correction chain, what DO you use when your dog doesn't comply with a known command or shows an undesirable behaviour?

[Guest trainer47]

You said you came here to find peoples opinions on the method of training, well at least you have mine and PGM's.

Rusky,

Fair enough. You're right. I did get what I came for. Thanks.

[Rusky]

I'm curious, for those of you that don't use a correction chain, what DO you use when your dog doesn't comply with a known command or shows an undesirable behaviour?

they always comply and never show undesirable behaviour ( I lied)

I think we have had this conversation before and you told me that was encouraging an undesired response that the dog will show bad behaviour to display the good and then to be rewarded. That doesn't happen to me but I did wait to see if anyone else had a similar ideas to yourself about it.

I do think that there is more than one way, one method, of course there is but we all have choices. We all have opinions and different ideas. I am always open to other ideas but I also research very carefully to make sure that I will be comfortable with what I do. I don't just go off thinking

'oh boy, thats great, Ill try it'

When I was young and my Dad had just smacked my darling Bruno over the nose with a piece of hose for something or other I swore I would never ever hurt or punish my dogs, I haven't, there are other ways.

You see we all have a story, all have history, all have personal experiences we bring to the forum.

My Father used Koehler, I have mentioned this before I am not ignorant of the method.

[haven]

I think we have had this conversation before and you told me that was encouraging an undesired response that the dog will show bad behaviour to display the good and then to be rewarded.

Ah yes, I remember! I didn't mean that your dog would do this, but I believe (and have seen) some dogs do, it's all in the timing.

I was just curious, because when I have asked people in the past they tell me things like I say NO (=positive punishment) or I put him outide (=negative punishment) etc. In my experience, there are many people out there who say they only use positive reinforcement to simply mean they don't use a correction chain and often they do use punishment, they just don't realise it.

Reinforcement and punishment are all relative to the dog. My rotti can take a chain correction from me as strong as i can physically give and she doesn't care a rats. If I growl at her however, she is immediately grovelling at my feet.

[Kavik]

Yep, just as what a dog percieves as rewarding varies from dog to dog, so does what they perceive as punishment.

[haven]

Yes, and being NDTF accredited, you would know Kavik that the definition of reinforcement is not something your dog likes, it is something that makes a behaviour more likely to occur or with more intensity, just as punishment doesn't mean something your dog doesn't like or is cruel, but something that makes a behaviour less likely to occur or with less intensity.

IMO some people who bandy around terms like positive reinforcement, in the context that "I ONLY use positive reinforcement" or "I never use punishment" to mean I don't use a correction chain or hit my dog, lack the education to understand that what they are saying is fundamantally incorrect.

[Kavik]

True.

I highly doubt anyone really uses ONLY positive reinforcement. Even leash restraint is not positive. When people say they only use positive reinforcement, I think they mean they do not use check chains or leash corrections as you would use with a check chain.

[haven]

Agreed.

[PAX]

I compete in obedience and i always try to watch some Open or UD dogs. When ever i see a dog that really stands out as brilliant, i try to ask how they train. A couple of handlers that really stand out to me (198+ scores) clicker train.

I trained my dog to heel in a check chain and once taught i crossed over. I didnt do this deliberately, that was just when i learnt a new method. It will be interesting to me to see if i can train my next dog from scratch on a fixed collar. When i got my current dog, with the information that i had i would of thought it impossible.

I am a crossover trainer and IMO the clicker trained dogs work much faster and happier and are really breathtaking to watch work.

I would rather have a dog work in a happy way and occasionally stuff up than be an obedient, brow beaten robot.

This is only my opion from what i have personally expereinced and observed in my short trialling experience. I do not have any interest in handling agressive dogs or doing security work and i can appreciate how if i did i might have a different opinion.

I scoffed at a clicker until i couldn't teach the retreive and a forced retreive was recommended to me. I wasn't happy to try this on my dog as i knew the only reason he wasn't doing it was because he didn't understand. I went looking for something else, I was clicker crappy and had great success.

This is a great topic with plenty of food for thought.

[Kavik]

I am clicker training Diesel's retrieve for the same reason ;) (forced retrieve was not mentioned at my club, but I was not having much success with the method they use)

We are starting to get somewhere too! We have 'hold' down pat and he will walk and hold (and sit from a walk), and pick up from ground and sit. Still having problems with pick up from ground and walk - he tends to drop it then, but he is improving fast now!

[Rusky]

Kavik you can practice the hold from your armchair in the lounge room. Teach in separate excercise the hold and the retrieve. Hold a glove in your hand ask him to take it/ hold it/ give it and praise/click whatever each time it is correct. Then you can place and send just a short distance from your chair. I don't mean do all 3 excercises at once, one at a time.

Work on the remote control retrieve and mobile phone ;)

Not suggesting you be lazy is just that there are so many training opportunities whilst watching the TV :D

[Kavik]

Hmmm, not sure about getting him to retrieve remote and phone! Still worried that he might think it is more fun to chew! Even accidentally, I'm sure 30kg of Shepherd jaws could easily damage them!

I will work on getting him to hold metal objects though, will need that for trialling. Gloves might be more difficult, he will probably want to play with it.

[PAX]

I wouldn't use the remote either..........crunch chomp.

A freind was telling me the other day that she got her dog to retreive spoons off the kitchen floor then when she got them from the dog she dips them in a vegimite jar (dog only jar) and lets her lick the spoon and this helped her heaps with the metal articles. I have been kinda half heartedly trying to teach my dog to collect the metal dog bowls without any luck. Tonight i might get the clicker and give it a bit of a go.

[haven]

I would rather have a dog work in a happy way and occasionally stuff up than be an obedient, brow beaten robot.

Personally I've never seen such a dog. I use positive punishment in my training (it's certainly not the only method I use, mind you) and my dogs have personality plus. They love training and never appear remotely browbeaten or robot like, although they certainly are obedient (most of the time).

Incidently clicker training is not new, it's just using a CR or reward mark. I use this too, by saying 'yes' just like you would use a clicker, because I never leave myself at home (boy I sure do feel like that sometimes though).

[Lazlo's Mum]

I've seen a few trainers a bit eccentric about not using punishment in their training. They say the dog will like you better if you don't punish, and alot of people use punishment incorrectly (eg, dog chews something while they're out, owner returns an hour later and punishes dog) and you can damage the dog physically & mentally. I guess I'm like that in a way. I'm just afraid I'll use it incorrectly or hurt Lazlo or something.

The harshest thing I do to Lazlo is roll him on his side, put my hand around his muzzle and look him in the eyes, and I haven't even needed to do that lately.

If you want to see a robot dog, read 'The koehler method of dog training' by william koehler. Some of the stories and scenarios he has in there make dogs trained using this method seem like robots.

He uses that check chain for everything, even simple, easy commands like sit. The book was absolutely sickening. From memory, I think the only reward the dog got was praise.

Anyhow, I'm going on about pretty much nothing....