Pulling And Pulling

[Kavik]

So Koehler's answer is to physically drag the passive resistant dog around (as it is not interested in moving on its own) and to get the nervous dog upset by placing it in a position where it was not comfortable? (and possibly risk being bitten if the dog is fear aggressive, which luckily mine is not)

Does not surprise me one bit

[pgm]

You know I find it strange. When people talk about using halti's and complain that their dog hates it, the advice is always to keep using it and the dog will eventually accept it and be comfortable.

and to get the nervous dog upset by placing it in a position where it was not comfortable? (and possibly risk being bitten if the dog is fear aggressive, which luckily mine is not)

You know I do not understand this one bit. The kind of dog you have described (fear aggressive, likely to bite) is precisely the kind of dog that requires to be taught to accept physical handling. But you don't want to upset the poor dog?

No doubt, after the dog has eventually bitten some unfortunate soul who has made the innocent mistake of touching the dog, and the dog is in the shelter waiting to be pts he shall at least be able to console himself with the thought that at least my owner didn't upset me! At least my owner treated me right....

Humbug.........

[Kavik]

It is possible to teach the dog to accept handling without forcing it into a position and risking a potential bite! I would think it best not to force a dog that appears nervous.

I have seen many dogs that are placed into a drop for the first time scream and roll around and attempt to bite (and these were NOT fear biters).

Not a lot of owners are comfortable with putting their dog in that position.

I can actually place Zoe in a drop physically, she is fine being groomed and vetted and adores children patting her.

I happen to get a better, faster and more confident and relaxed response with a more hands off approach to training. She is a difficult dog, but I have learnt a lot. Would have been interesting if I knew about clicker training when she was a pup.

I keep an open mind and like to learn about all approaches to training and realise that some will work better for a certain dog than another.

Koehler does work but IMO may not suit all dogs or owners.

[Rusky]

ok this is why I do not like Koehler

in handling a dog which bites the handler/trainer wtf??

First the trainer makes sure that the collar and leash are more than adequate for any jerk or strain that the dogs most frantic actions could cause. Then he (handler) works the dog deliberately and fairly to the point where the dog makes his grab. Before the teeth have reached the target, the dog is jerked from the ground. As in coping with some afore mentioned problems the dog is suspended in mid air. hOWEVER TO LET THE BITING DOG RECOVER HIS FOOTING WHILE HE STILL HAD THE STRENGTH TO RENEW THE ATTACK WOULD BE CRUELTY. ( this is in upper case as was written)

The only justifiable corse is to hold him suspended until he has neither the strength nor the inclination to renew the fight. When it finally becomes obvious that he is physically incapapble of expressing his resentment and is lowered to the ground he will probably stagger loop legged for a few steps vomit once or twice and roll on his side.

The sight of a dog lying thick tongued on his side is not pleasant but do not let it alarm you. etc etc etc

I do not like Koehler, I have never lliked the type of training, no mention in the world as to why the dog might be aggressive to human handler, shit is cruel and crap.

The training method then continues on to use a piece of hard hose to smack down on the dogs nose with a chopping action.

I repeat as I have before that Koehler is cruel and outdated.

[pgm]

I have seen many dogs that are placed into a drop for the first time scream and roll around and attempt to bite (and these were NOT fear biters).

Such a dog that would do this has major issues of one sort or another. Koehler does not attempt to place the dog into a drop until the third week - for good reason. Most of these issues will have already been solved by that time.

hOWEVER TO LET THE BITING DOG RECOVER HIS FOOTING WHILE HE STILL HAD THE STRENGTH TO RENEW THE ATTACK WOULD BE CRUELTY.

To allow the dog to recover his footing while he still has the strength to continue the fight is both foolish and cruel. Foolish because to do so may result in a further attack and cruel because to leave the dog in any doubt would only encourage further attempts. This is meant to put a stop to this behavior once and for all.

Can I add, that if you have such a dog then take it to a profesional trainer who is much more experienced and adapt at handling these kinds of dog. Koehler, on the other hand, wrote this book for those people who neither have the money nor the access to professional trainers, but nonetheless had a serious problem that needed fixing - either that or put the dog to sleep.

no mention in the world as to why the dog might be aggressive to human handler

This is where behaviorism has ruined people's ability to think. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHY THE DOG IS ATTACKING. The only thing that matters is that the behavior is extinguished as soon as possible. You will say knowing why the dog attacks will give us a better way of stopping it - you have already been given a method of stopping it. You simply don't like the method - fair enough, use a different method.

Indeed, if you like to know why the dog attacks you can always read those trainers who prefer behaviorist explanations and take eighteen months to fix simple aggression problems that could otherwise be solved in a matter of minutes.

One more question for Rusky, here in full is the last paragraph of the introduction to the Koehler Method of Dog Training:

"Because it proclaims the kindness of adequate discipline when needed to correct a fault that cannot be condoned, the book might disturb some folks who have nothing to offer but their own emotions. Their equanimity can be quickly restored by the device of envisioning themselves in the place of the dog under consideration. Almost always, these disturbed ones say they would prefer proper discipline rather another, more drastic, alternative, such as being 'put to sleep.' And it must be remembered that the extreme procedures included herein are advised ONLY IN THOSE CASES WHERE THE ALTERNATIVE IS AS DRASTIC AS BEING PUT TO SLEEP."

Exactly what do you not understand of the above? If you think that suspending a dog in midair is something other than an extreme procedure (to be used only in the above case) then you shouldn't be training dogs.

And of course, it goes without saying, people who cannot read or comprehend simple English should not use Koehler...

[Kavik]

I quite like this article on breeds that are 'hard to train'

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/difficult.html

PGM - Do you have an open mind to learn about other styles of training at all? There is so much out there, in many different fields and styles.

[pgm]

Certainly, I have just taken a ten week online course from a very experienced American trainer on how to incorporate the ecollar with Koehler. It's brilliant.

[Rusky]

If you think that suspending a dog in midair is something other than an extreme procedure (to be used only in the above case) then you shouldn't be training dogs.

Now thats funny because I think the absolute opposite.

[Kavik]

What about scent detection? (all positives there), clicker training, shaping?

I found the hardest part when I was doing scent detection and decided to teach an active response for a food reward (Zoe is not enough toy motivated to use that). Trying to get the dig response was hard because I had not taught Zoe to think in that way before - I had to reward tiny paw movements, then only more vigorous digging. It was amazing doing something so different and the scent component where you have to trust the dog in the end.

There is more to training than Koehler, I hope that someday you can see that.

[pgm]

Now thats funny because I think the absolute opposite.

What, you think that suspending a dog in midair in normal training procedure? As I said, maybe you shouldn't be training - or else, you should learn to read.

There is more to training than Koehler, I hope that someday you can see that.

I have never said there wasn't. Besides, my only concern is getting results - results meaning a confident, happy, well behaved, obedient dog. All the rest is just the petty insecurities of humans...

[Rusky]

What, you think that suspending a dog in midair in normal training procedure? As I said, maybe you shouldn't be training - or else, you should learn to read.

you know exactly what I mean but I will spell it out ok

I think that anyone who would use a method like that for any reason on any dog should not be training dogs. Barbaric bloody cruelty.

We will never agree on this PGM, I wish you would maybe just try some positive training methods. I mean positive not negative re enforcement.

[pgm]

I think that anyone who would use a method like that for any reason on any dog

For any reason? Not even to prevent the dog from being put to sleep? Your quite right though - we do have a fundamental difference.

I wish you would maybe just try some positive training methods. I mean positive not negative re enforcement.

This makes me laugh Rusky, it really does. Where on earth do you get the idea that I don't use positive reinforcement? Certainly not from Koehler - but then you would have to read the book....

Edited May 26, 2005 by pgm

[Rusky]

This makes me laugh Rusky, it really does

:rolleyes:

anyway I have read the book, I know the book I disagree thats all. I prefer other methods, you know I do , I know you love Koehler.

[pgm]

If you prefer other methods then you should use them. People should use methods that they are comfortable with, I have never said otherwise.

But when people call the methods I use cruel and barbaric I find myself irresistably drawn to defend those methods. I mean if I called you a candyass because you used a clicker wouldn't you object?

Koehler is not cruel and abusive, though you can certainly make him appear to be so by quoting him out of context. Such misrepresentation is found all over the internet.

I object to the misrepresentation that defines Koehler as 'force extremist' or a 'punishment based method'. And I object to people suggesting that people like me have a closed mind to newer so-called positive methods. I use all four quadrants of operant conditioning, unlike those who accuse me of closedmindedness who use only two.

It's very simple, I use what works - which as it happens is predominantly positive reinforcement. I don't like being lectured to use positive reinforcement as if I don't use it or don't know what is.

Any method that has any hope of success uses positive reinforcement. The only difference is that some of us also use the other three quadrants when and where necessary.

[Kavik]

I use three quadrants thank you :rolleyes:

The only one I don't use is negative reinforcement.

You don't tend to come across as viewing other methods of training as viable, could just be the way you type. I can see good and bad points in Koehler, and in other methods, I just prefer not to use Koehler. You don't seem to acknowledge the good points in other methods.

[pgm]

You don't seem to acknowledge the good points in other methods.

What good points belonging to other methods do I not acknowledge?

Positive reinforcement? - use it consistently as the basis of teaching

Negative reinforcement? - use it when necessary

Negative punishment? - use it when necessary

Positive punishment? - use it very rarely, but on occasion

Have I missed anything?

Edited May 26, 2005 by pgm

[Guest trainer47]

PGM,

I have to say you are right on. Everything I wanted to add youi have already said. I also, want to mention that Koehler is NOT just about corrections! We use lots and lots of praise! But there HAS to be a consequense for not obeying. The "tranq" (rolled piece of hose) is only used in EXTREME cases as is taking the dog off all fours for attacking! We have had many a dog come through our classes whom the owners have said is their last hope for the dog. If this doesn't work, they will be put to sleep! Imagine their joy when they get to live out their lives with "Scruffy" because he doesn't want to take off the nieghbor kids nose when he comes over to play!

I happen to have a dog that was severly abused before we adopted her. I used the Koehler method on her. (She is a fear biter and never been "hung") I simply followed the course and she became more confident. She knew what to expect from me and was more than happy to obey. Koehler is not CRUEL. Just FIRM and there is nothing wrong with that.

Many people come to our classes because they were asked to leave by the "positive" classes. Some just because their dog was barking! Koehler would take care of that the first class and be done with it. Those people are very happy because they deserve to have a trained dog also!

In our classes, we work extensively with people to get the results they are looking for. Not all dogs are easy, I'll give you that. It IS easier to train "go get 'em" working type dogs than shy, reserved ones. But it can be done and all you need is patience and perserverence. We always get the job done and have never abused a dog!

I have 3 dogs and all were trained this way. They are all spoiled! They sleep with me, wear little sweaters when it's too cold and the like. BUT, they all know who is the pack leader and RESPECT me for it.

Koehler just make the dog responsible for their own actions and not dependent on the handler for reward.

[Kavik]

I just find it interesting that although I know that Koehler uses rewards, all of what PGM has posted about getting the dog not to pull involved NO verbal communication with the dog (and I assume because it was mentioned no praise or petting). I don't see how this is AT ALL positive - I would have thought praise for being in the right position would be used?

"The Koehler method involves a fifteen foot lead and a check chain. Take the dog to the required area (your local park or something). With dog on lead and on your left start walking. Hold the remaining slack on the lead in your right hand, making sure the lead is not tight. For the first week there is no talking, no commands, no communication between dog and handler (one isn't supposed to even look at the dog). When the dog moves ahead, let out the remaining slack on lead and move swiftly in the other direction, wait till dog catches up, then move off again with purpose"

[Guest trainer47]

Kavik,

I believe in "positive" methods to train in any other case - not obedience. For the things you are referring to, positve methods are great! But, those things are more "tricks" to start out. I believe that obedience should never be used that way. I have taught my dogs all sorts of other things using treats or toys. I'm not saying that you can't train a dog using treats or toys. I just think it is not as quick or reliable and with Koehler, you establish pack order quickly.

[Erny]

Before I go in to the purpose of this post, I'd like to describe myself to you. I am a "balanced trainer". I use positive reinforcement wherever possible and appropriate and if that will achieve the best result for myself and my dog, then that is enough. But if I am training for reliability, then the dog must learn there shall be consequences for non-compliance in obedience. I guess the consequence needs to match the degree/seriousness of non-compliance and the degree of danger present in the face of such non-compliance.

Using 'human' terms to try to explain what I mean (in case I've lost anyone here)-:

If I am late in returning a library book to our local library, I am fined $1.00. Not a big fine, but not a big, dangerous crime, either.

If I speed in my car (the potential results of which we are all aware), I am fined $xxx.00 dollars, or I might even lose my driver's licence (ouch!)

I'm not saying ANY type of training method is wrong - far from it. I am learnt in most, if not all, aspects. And I use all of what I know - which dog I use which aspect on? ..... well, that depends on the dog and the problem/s at hand and what will achieve the best outcome all round.

Having given you some insight as to where I stand in my own training beliefs, I'd like to tell of a lady I read about (maybe others have as well??). This old lady breeds dogs and has done so for many, many years. She trains her pups/dogs using positive punishment only. She has never completed a dog training course; never been to a seminar; never been on a chat line. Nor has she read up on any books about how to train her dogs. And yet her dogs are happy, obedient, willing to work and well adjusted.

How can this be, given that she only uses positive punishment training methodology ?

Edited May 26, 2005 by Erny