Pulling And Pulling

[haven]

Congrats on the record Kate, but can i suggest that for the time being you avoid walking the same route, that way you can avoid the 'i know the way, lets race home' syndrome. Even just find a spot and walk back and forth until the pulling behaviour is under control.

[winewood]

I have the same problem, she is understanding the concept of heal as a short command(4 or 5 steps) off lead in the garden at home or at training classses, but when we go for a walk its lets see who has the strongest willpower. I have trainned my previous dogs with the correction collar and had success but now I'm at an obed school with positive methods, food rewards which is great, but whenever I say good girl in the short second it is, she then pulls away again when I stop she sits down looks at me I take one step she then pulls again. I find it very hard to say good girl or reward her when there are very few moments to do so. I know she is very young 5months and still very bouncy (cocker spaniel)I'm tempted to go for a part correction collar. Any suggestions welcomed

[pgm]

Any suggestions welcomed

Use what works.

[Steve K9Pro]

Obedience schools mainly teach positive reinforcement training these days because the inexperienced handler cannot "ruin" his dog using these methods.

K9: I would like it if you could define the term "ruin" for us?

I can list many dogs that have been rehomed or euthanised because they had behaviour problems, many owners had felt this was their only choice when purely positive training had failed to give results.

I feel that its a poor understanding of a method or missuse of a method that will ruin a dog, & that isnt limited to those that use aversives either, poor timing with positive re inforcement can escalate a fault quicker than any other method.

[Kavik]

I feel that its a poor understanding of a method or missuse of a method that will ruin a dog, & that isnt limited to those that use aversives either, poor timing with positive re inforcement can escalate a fault quicker than any other method.

True - this is my first attempt at clicker training, and we are trying to clicker retrieving. It has taken a long time to teach the hold because I accidentally taught him to throw the dumbell due to my timing (and messing around as it is my first try). It has taken a while to get rid of that habit, but we are progressing now

[haven]

I

whenever I say good girl  in the short second it is, she then pulls away again when I stop she sits down looks at me I take one step she then pulls again. I find it very hard to say good girl or reward her when there are very few moments to do so. I know she is very young  5months and still very bouncy (cocker spaniel)

Personally I would either change your CR (saying 'good'girl) and/or look at how you are saying it. If you use too much excitement in your tone its easy for the dog to think it is praise for the end of the excersise, or simply become over excited. Use low and slow praise. A heel is a very intense excersise for any dog to learn, especially a young dog with a short attention span (which certainly doesn't mean they are incapable). Ensure you work it slowly, 3 steps of quality heeling is better than 10 sloppy steps. Look at when you are giving your food reward too. I'm not saying this applies to you but I often see owners in obedience classes reward their dogs at inappropriate times. Personally I wouldn't attempt to teach the heel at all until I'd taught my dog not to pull on the lead.

Edited May 16, 2005 by haven

[winewood]

sorry to hijack the thread but have same problem, thanks haven, last night at obed school we were the star pupil she behaved really well and had to show the rest of the class how to heal plus all other tasks, we are only going 4 steps at the moment and she understands this and caught on really well her eyes focused on me, close to me and in correct position, so she knows what heal means my problem is I'm trying to teach her to "walk" expecting her to heal all the way around the block is to much and not what I want. I want her just to walk calmly without pulling and keep "heal" for the obed ring and "walk" is for fun around the block and sniffing is this possible help and suggestions welcomed

[PAX]

Hi mclennan,

I do a similar thing. I also use a different collar for fun walking to when we are working. I only say "heel" when we are working. On road walks if i think he is getting a bit too ahead i just say "steady" to remind him of his manners. Sorry to thread hijack. Its interesteing to hear what other people do.

[trifecta]

K9, The proponents of positive reward training see the drawbacks of traditional training being possible physical damage due to overuse/misuse of a choke chain, the mistakes & poor timing of an inexperienced handler resulting in a confused & traumatised dog & the damage done to the dog/handler relationship caused by fear & sometimes pain. Motivational training is widely practised by obedience clubs these days in the belief that mistakes made by inexperienced handlers slow down training but do not cause as much physical & psychological harm.

Yes, I agree with you, timing is the key whichever method is chosen.

I was not advocating any one method of training in my post to Kate H, in fact the biggest drawback I see with motivational training, is that all too often the handler fails to establish a leader relationship which results in a spoilt dog. The point of my post was too advise reading up on training methods before choosing one above any other. I hope I did not infer otherwise.

[Steve K9Pro]

TF:

K9, The proponents of positive reward training see the drawbacks of traditional training being possible physical damage due to overuse/misuse of a choke chain, the mistakes & poor timing of an inexperienced handler resulting in a confused & traumatised dog & the damage done to the dog/handler relationship caused by fear & sometimes pain. Motivational training is widely practised by obedience clubs these days in the belief that mistakes made by inexperienced handlers slow down training but do not cause as much physical & psychological harm.

K9: Timing, over correction (even verbal) missuse of any tool can traumatise a dog.

I find it interesting that yo refer to the other type of training as "motivational". Its a weel documented fact that dogs will not learn without positive re inforcement & every traditional training method includes motivation & reward. It also adds negative re inforcement when the dog is doing something that you find undesireable.

Any correction that causes physical or emotional damage is missuse of the method.

[haven]

I find it strange that people claim to use "only positive reinforcement." What do you do when the dog does something undesirable? A verbal correction is still positive punishment and witholding food, attention or restricting freedom is still negative punishment if it makes the behaviour less likely to occur.

For you guys having trouble with getting your dogs to stop pulling on the lead theres some info in the earlier posts but I'll give you my suggestions again.

1. When your dog puts Any tension on the lead EVER I give a physical correction relative to the dog to punish the pulling. If that makes you squeemish skip to step 2. Change directions. If you continue forward your dog is rewarded with every step by getting where they want to go.

3. Praise (low level) whenever your dog is not pulling to positively reinforce walking nicely on lead.

Extra tips: let you dog have full length of a decent size lead and let them walk wherever they want, stop and sniff, toilet etc but be sure to be the one to decide where, when and how long you stop. Don't let your dog dictate to you.

Practice as much as you can before you go for an ctual walk to get the concept across to your dog.

Change directions often to encourage your dog to keep an eye out for where you are going, this makes them less likely to pull.

Be persistant, this method works, but only if you are more stubborn than your dog! DONT give in to an established puller, they will learn walking nicely on lead is in their best interests only if you are consistent.

I agree about the heeling, keep it short and simple, increase in small increments. Taking your dog for a walk and making them heel all the way is no fun for them!

[pgm]

Haven: if I can make one or two comments. Changing direction is probably more effective for the reason that it disassociates the correction from the handler.

Working on a fifteen foot lead intially is also better as it further disassociates the correction with the handler and allows for even the clumsy handler to make good corrections (eg, it removes the necessity for good timing that only professionals really possess).

Working with a check chain also improves the learning as the quick check and release of the collar gives the dog more information than a standard collar would.

Working for a full week without any communication between handler and dog also dramatically improves the dogs attention. The dog will literally take up and KEEP the position of heel of their own accord.

The technique of changing direction has essentially come from Koehler, but is often not as effective for every dog because of the alterations made to his method. A good trainer, with good timing and the ability to read the dog could probably work the dog on a six foot lead and get excellent results. But on a fifteen foot lead, even the novice will get excellent results if they follow the method.

[Rusky]

Hi Haven re your question about undesirable behaviour and verbal correction I prefer an alternative behaviour command. I am sure that gruff voice stuff the 'aacht' can be useful but have found that generally dogs respond to a command they are able to understand and demonstrate.

Then I reward.

So instead of 'NO' to jumping sit.. drop good boy

Personally as many others here I have never ever had one of my own dogs jump up, they learned not to as puppies by working out the behaviour that gave the rewards.

Really it is so much easier if dogs learn good manners when they are puppies.

[haven]

Totally agree with everything you said PGM!

Sometimes, though I think it's ok if the dog associates a correction with the handler, for leadership reasons.

Rusky, I see what you're saying but I think for some handlers there could be a danger of creating a problem behaviour because the dog learns that is they way to reward. Eg dog wants reward, jumps to get alt command and is rewarded. It's not that I don't agree with the method but I think many people don't have the timing to use it.

True, teaching pups proper manners right from day dot is ideal. Personally I put behaviours like digging and jumping under stimulus control and find it works very effectively.

[haven]

Working for a full week without any communication between handler and dog also dramatically improves the dogs attention. The dog will literally take up and KEEP the position of heel of their own accord.

This is a particularly great technique, if you have the willpower! Some trainers of working dogs eg, farm dogs, sniffer dogs etc, will only give their dogs any attention when they are working so the dog is super motivated to do its job. Of course they are not neglected in any way and still get quality food and care.

[Guest trainer47]

PGM, I am so glad to see someone support the Koehler method. It is very effective if done correctly. It is very reliable and impersonal as you stated. I have had very good success with all kinds of dog personalities. From outgoing to shy, aggressive to playful. Koehler gets a bad wrap because of the way some people abuse the method. If done correctly nothing "bad" happens to the dog. People also need to remember that dogs communicate differently that humans. What is politically correct for a human is not always what you are communicating to a dog! I have been a trainer of the Koehler method for 7 years. I have looked into other forms of training and always come back to this one. It is quick and reliable. I love it.

[Kavik]

I think people don't like Koehler because of the potential for problems if the person does not know what they are doing. I have seen (mostly men) over correct dogs because of this. A nice owner I know who has a lovely long haired GSD bitch (quite handler soft) tended to over correct her because he saw other handlers with really tough security dogs correct their dogs more harshly. His dog did not require that, and he was told to settle or he would ruin his dog.

Also I think some breeds do not respond well to this method. Some dogs that are passive resistant will just refuse to move or do anything (I think of my OH's old Bull Terrier and some pitties I have seen), and some sighthounds really do not cope, they shut down. It works best with resiliant working type dogs.

Breeds that are traditionally seen as 'difficult to train' probably do best with alternative more positive (food and toy) based methods. Not all dogs are super keen as mustard to do what their handler wants.

Edite: because I can't spell

Edited May 26, 2005 by Kavik

[pgm]

I think people don't like Koehler because of the potential for problems if the person does not know what they are doing.

Then the problem is people not knowing what they are doing, not the method. It is the same with any method, if you don't know what you are doing then problems will occur.

Also I think some breeds do not respond well to this method.

One wonders exactly what method you are referring to, plently of trainers will say they are using Koehler when in fact they are they are not. All I can say is that I know quite a few Koehler trainers who have been training for over thirty years and have yet to find a breed of dog that does not respond to this method. Name a breed and I am sure they could give you numerous examples of the breed with advanced obediance titles using this method.

Some dogs that are passive resistant will just refuse to move or do anything

Not possible if you are following the method.

[Kavik]

OK, Italian Greyhound

My OH's old Bully was a stubborn dog who had a passive resistant response to training (they did not use Koehler) - if she did not want to do something, she would just refuse to move, you would have to drag her. His parents (who mainly looked after the dog) had had numerous dogs before - GSDs and Dobes, and also have a Staffy who is a lovely dog and they have had no problems training it. This Bully was a more difficult dog. She had no desire to please people, and I think she is the kind of dog Koehler would not work with.

How would Koehler deal with a dog that refuses to move?

Also, not all dogs respond well to physically being placed into position or even physical praise. My Kelpie cross is one such dog - she is nervous and skittish and physically placing her does not work. She likes some pats, but not cuddles. Diesel on the other hand has no problems with being physically placed into position, and loves being scratched patted and cuddled. Koehler would work better on him than on Zoe but I prefer to use different methods.

Edited May 26, 2005 by Kavik

[pgm]

OK, Italian Greyhound

That's an easy one. Dick Koehler, Bill's son, use to own and train Italian Greyhounds if I remember correctly.

She had no desire to please people, and I think she is the kind of dog Koehler would not work with.

Sounds like the perfect dog for Koehler.

How would Koehler deal with a dog that refuses to move?

Keep moving.

My Kelpie cross is one such dog - she is nervous and skittish and physically placing her does not work.

Koehler would insist on placing your dog into position precisely for the reasons you mention. Luring the dog into position may work to teach the sit, but it will not overcome her nervousness or skittshness. Placing her would solve two problems at once.