Pulling And Pulling

[KateH]

Hi all,

Newbie but longtime reader here. My five month old GSP girl Jasper is, as you'd imagine, a bundle of energy and excitement, and very, very distractable. I am trying to train her to walk nicely on the lead without pulling by using the "you pull, I stop" method, with lots of praise when she walks with a loose leash. We're also doing NILIF at home.

Yesterday we took a short walk using this method (with a fixed collar and 1.5 metre lead) and she went completely mad, throwing herself at the end of the leash and snapping around quite violently, whining and carrying on.

Is this "extinction burst" behaviour or am I just going to hurt her this way? We're beginning obediance training on the weekend, but she needs to be walked otherwise she's a whirling dervish by night-time -- but I know the more we walk her and allow her to pull, the more ingrained a problem it will be.

Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Kate.

[SALTWOOD]

I have a 4-5mth old pup at the moment and you can probably look back a few weeks where I have posted the exact same problems you are experiencing.

I have found that there is light at the end of the tunnel but it can be a very long tunnel. However, I have found that with concentrating on other aspects of training comes a reduction in unwanted behaviours in the more difficult areas ie. pulling.

Organised weekly dog obedience classes do help but it is a slow process because there are so many distractions, we are going through that at the moment. To achieve a dog walking properly beside you, I have been told by our instructors, can take years for a dog to master. That means you have to continue the training for years!!! Instructor said one of his dogs took 18 months of one step forward and two steps back until the one step forward could be rewarded for being done correctly. Now that must have taken a lot of patience!! Train daily for 10 minutes at a time.

As a breeder, I have dogs that have never pulled, dogs that pull like there is no tomorrow and ones inbetween. I have come to the realisation that I must be persistant and consistant to get what I want out of my furry friends.

The pup and I now practice all manner of things ie. tricks, hide and seek, waiting, show training, the whole gambit - one day it will all pay off!! :rolleyes:

Edited May 13, 2005 by SALTWOOD

[pgm]

To achieve a dog walking properly beside you, I have been told by our instructors, can take years for a dog to master. That means you have to continue the training for years!!! Instructor said one of his dogs took 18 months of one step forward and two steps back until the one step forward could be rewarded for being done correctly.

Saltwood, I hope you are not paying money to this instructor! If an instuctor said that to me I would be running as fast as I could in the other direction!

KateH, get a copy of the Koehler Method of Dog Training, follow the instructions for the first week of foundation. Your dog will be happily walking beside you within a week around distractions. If done correctly, your dog will never pull on the lead again for the rest of his life.

While I am here I cannot help but comment at the irony of people saying how much more we know about dogs these days and how much our methods of training have advanced since the days of Koehler. Given the above comments of the instructor this is laughable.

PS, this is not directed at you Saltwood.

[KateH]

Thanks PGM, I'll google it.

Saltwood -- aah, the thought of years of this behaviour makes me feel very, very miserable.

I know any training takes time but since my dog picked up sit, drop, stay and a few other commands in about 20 minutes, it makes me wonder why lead walking is so different, is it me, or is it her?

Cheers,

Kate.

[Sparty]

YEARS!!!!!! arrgghhh !!!!

my puppy is now 6months old he is very good about not pulling, he was taught to heel from puppy class, obviously the first time you walk without food is fun and games, and having the 2 older dogs ahead made it worse :rolleyes: but we kept up with the change in direction, as he passed me i would turn and go the other way, you dont get very far but e got the idea and when he was in position i would praise him also in class they suggested (and it seemd to work) to start walking backwards as the dog comes around and follows as he gets to you side step a little and step forward so he is on your left and go forward again, repeat until he gets the idea lol this worked pretty well with bodie as in training i had food to reinforce the praise he is a food tart!! but now when we walk (not heeling) he ranges at the end of the lead but doesnt pull or tug

[SALTWOOD]

PMG - Perhaps the instructor tells people years so that they don't keep bugging him???

KateH - Yes I agree, everything else they teach ie, sit, stand, touch, etc. seems to work almost immediately but the pulling thing seems to be very difficult to stop.

Anyway, the miracle Koehler method sounds like it is just what we need - where can I get a copy??? :rolleyes:

PMG - Whilst I am locating this book can you give a bit of a clue about what it explains to do to stop the dog pulling please??

Edited May 13, 2005 by SALTWOOD

[KateH]

Update: Tonight I tried the immoveable object approach and the results were much better. We managed to get about four times the distance we did yesterday and while she still pulled occasionally, it certainly wasn't as bad. Whenever I stopped she would return to me, so it seems, tentatively, that some progress has been made.

Obediance training starts Sunday, so we'll see what they recommend. Hopefully for all our sakes it won't be years of 'one step forward, one step back'.

[pgm]

Saltwood, the Koehler method is one method amongst others. I recommend it because that is what I used. Regardless of what method you use however, there is no way it should take years to teach a dog to walk without pulling. A couple of weeks at most - anymore, go to another trainer, find a different method. A good trainer can have a dog walking without pulling within five minutes.

The Koehler method involves a fifteen foot lead and a check chain. Take the dog to the required area (your local park or something). With dog on lead and on your left start walking. Hold the remaining slack on the lead in your right hand, making sure the lead is not tight. For the first week there is no talking, no commands, no communication between dog and handler (one isn't supposed to even look at the dog). When the dog moves ahead, let out the remaining slack on lead and move swiftly in the other direction, wait till dog catches up, then move off again with purpose.

Each time the dog goes in a different direction (or moves ahead of you) than the one you are going you move in the opposite. You will likely see a significant improvement in the first session of work (15mins). By the end of the week the dog will walking beside you and if you have followed the instructions correctly, it will be almost impossible for you to catch him out regardless of the distraction. Second week you move to the six foot leash.

Please do not attempt this from the above description, there is more to it. Check out your local library for a copy. If not you can get a copy at Amazon.

[SALTWOOD]

Thanks PGM sounds good - can't wait until I get that book!!

KateH, have been trying the immoveable object approach for a while now and yes it does work to a degree but nowhere near what I want. It works best at home with no distractions albiet slow going but when I go to class aggghhh disaster - the pup definitely develops selective hearing and only wants to play with the other dogs!!! :rolleyes:

This Koehler method sounds promising though - I hope it is the solution!!

Will let you know how I get on!!

[Kavik]

Personally for my dogs I would choose a more positive approach, but it depends on the dog and what you want you do. Research the Koehler method before you choose to use it.

[KitKat]

I have started using the clicker training method with my dog....and within half a street he was walking at heel with a loose lead...

He knew 'heel' but it wasn't sticking as such...but the clicker marks where i want him to be and literally by the time i was half way down the street he was walkiing nicely...even when i ran out of treats!

Oh...i have a 9month old GSD...with 40kg's of pulling power...lmao...but i also don't want to stop him completely jsut do as he is told as i want to teach him 'lead out' for tracking in the future and i don't want to have to teach him that he can leave my side if told etc

[KitKat]

Oh...i thought i had better add...my other dog i trained in the 'traditional' way...but it just wasn't working for my pup...and neither of us was enjoying it because of that...so i thought i'd try something different...and so far it's working and we couldn't be happier :rolleyes:

[Rusky]

I think you will find that the koehler method is harsh, positive training methods are almost exclusively used now in obedience class.

The stop is ok, I prefer a change of direction, come on puppy here we go, this way. When the pup isn't pulling is ok he can sniff do whatever but if he pulls you change direction. Gently, don't pull him, call him, come on puppy, lets go.

Also at home you may need to change a few things but you are starting classes soon and all that info will be given to you.

The reason a dog pulls is he is off to hunt, leading the way, this would never happen in a doggy pack, he is too young and inexperienced, he wouldn't think of leading the way. He will try it on but is up to you to show that you are the leader of your pack. You decide where you are going, use a lead and a flat collar, reward with tiny tit bits of food when he does the right thing, maybe then let him sniff the food, to know it is there, make him work for it. You aren't aiming for a perfect heel, just a non pulling dog at this stage.

You won't have years, you will have days if you do this consistantly.

dog pulls

stop

change direction

dog pulls

stop

change direction

dog doesn't pull, reward, good puppy.

Practice for 10 minutes a day and do your other training too.

You will be walking beautifully in no time.

Good luck.

edited to say I am sure the trainer was speaking of perfect heel work not a non pulling dog.

Edited May 13, 2005 by Rusky

[pgm]

I think you will find that the koehler method is harsh, positive training methods are almost exclusively used now in obedience class.

I suppose that's why they take eighteen months to teach heel?

edited to say I am sure the trainer was speaking of perfect heel work not a non pulling dog.

In the Koehler method it takes 10 weeks to get a dog to heel offlead good enough to pass a novice exam.

In my club, novice work is called advanced training and to get through all the levels required to reach it will take five months (assuming that you pass at each level, which very rare indeed, especially if you follow the advice of the instructors.)

[Rusky]

In the Koehler method it takes 10 weeks to get a dog to heel offlead good enough to pass a novice exam.

what do you want me to say ?

If it is important that the dog heels 'good enough' to pass a novice exam in 10 weeks then I am pleased for you.

I can only speak for WA, all puppies train for at least 10 weeks then they start formal obedience. Some people are just happy that the puppy is a nice pleasant pet by this time and others like to go on and do a bit more.

If they like they can continue and trial or just go fo fun.

I am not going to argue with you, I do not like the old methods for general training. You already know that. My Father used Koehler, I think the world did everyone knew the well behaved pets in the movies and all wanted that perfectly behaved funny pet, their own little movie star.

I know it worked, I know, but I will never use a method like that on any of my dogs and I will always tell new owners alternative ideas, modern kind ideas which focus on positives for handler and dog.

Of course it doesn't take 18 months, you know that too, the trainer I have already said was probably discussing perfect heeling which is 'never' perfect enough for some.

Most people PGM really just want a nice well behaved pet, who will go for nice walks, will recall immediately and not jump up or bark like crazy everytime they see a bit of movement. Most do not trial, most just want to enjoy the friendship with their dogs. For those basics are enough and can be learned easily with positive methods.

[pgm]

I know it worked, I know, but I will never use a method like that on any of my dogs and I will always tell new owners alternative ideas, modern kind ideas which focus on positives for handler and dog.

The most positive thing for both dog and handler is getting results. Getting results is what encourages people to go on further to more advanced work - a plus for both dog and handler. Most dogs don't live beyond 2-3 years in this country, I don't see the results of modern ideas the way others do.

Most people PGM really just want a nice well behaved pet, who will go for nice walks, will recall immediately and not jump up or bark like crazy everytime they see a bit of movement.

Ten weeks of Koehler will get you all of that and more. It was specifically written for the average dog owner. I just don't see the benefit, either to dog or handler, of spending 12 months of training without getting results when all that and much more can be gained in ten weeks.

I am not trying to shove Koehler down people throats, people should use methods that they are comfortable with. But personally I think people should be concerned less with the question of HOW the dog is trained than with the question of WHETHER the dog is trained. I suspect the average life of dogs would increase if more people did.

[Kavik]

To some people the HOW is important.

I think it depends on what you are comfortable with and what you wish to achieve. For happy competition heeling, most use food or toys for attention. Clickers are becoming popular too.

Keeping an open mind is best, I hope to learn as much as I can about all methods and wish to try a number of disciplines.

If you are interested in a particular method, best research it first to see if it suits your purpose.

[trifecta]

As you can see Kate H methods of training are a contentious issue. Read as much as you can about different methods & choose one that you are comfortable with & one that suits the temperament of your dog.

Obedience schools mainly teach positive reinforcement training these days because the inexperienced handler cannot "ruin" his dog using these methods.

However if you decide that the Koehler method is for you, I would encourage you to have one on one sessions with a trainer skilled in Koehler's methodology. I do not consider it a suitable method of training for the unsupervised novice handler, nor should it be put into practice simply by reading a book.

It's a matter of horses for courses..... & there is a training protocol to suit your dog.... you just have to find it :rolleyes:

[haven]

Kate, I agree with Rusky on the dog pulls, stop, change direction method. It's important to note however, consistency is key. Pulling on the lead is often so very frustrating that people eventually give up because they want to get to where they are going sometime today! Unfortunately this creates a dog that pulls even more. Hang in there, be 100% consistent in not allowing pulling to go unchecked and your dog will see that pulling never gets him where he wants to go. On the other hand, if your dog doesn't pull not only does he gets to go where he wants, he gets praise from you!

[KateH]

After researching Koehler, I've decided it's not the method for me. Thanks for your advice, pgm, I just feel that I couldn't comfortably implement the training methods described in the book. I appreciate your recommendation, thanks again.

Anyway, I did try changing the direction each time my dog pulled, but Jasper and I would both end up wrapped in her lead and staring at each other in puzzlement. I think it's my lack of co-ordination that may be the problem. So stopping seems easier for both of us.

And it is working -- yesterday saw a distinct improvement. Yes, we had to stop a number of times, but when we did she would quickly return to my side, and we made it around the block in a record-breaking 15 minutes instead of nearly an hour as on the first try.

It's not perfect but it's MUCH better and I've only been doing it for four days.

Thanks again to everyone for the advice.