MDBA now registering first generation crosses?

[Selkie]

On 6/1/2018 at 9:33 AM, Maddy said:

If you believe the problem is lack of health testing and questionable care, then surely lurchers would also be a problem? They are very unlikely to have come from health tested parents and if breeders of other hunting types (like stags and bull arabs) are anything to go by, whelping/rearing conditions will be pretty dreadful.

The real issue with crossbreeds is the intent behind their breeding. lurchers/longdogs are bred to work. Surplus puppies will be sold but there's virtually no pet market for that sort of hunting mix, so it's really unusual to see anyone breeding them for pets. On the other hand, someone breeding SBT x Frenchie is doing it entirely for the money ($2,500 per puppy, to be exact). There's no breed standard to work towards, nothing to improve on, no purpose to the dogs, it's just crossing breeds for the sake of profit. No different at all to any other oodle or DD mix.

 

Oh I totally agree ... I just meant prior to designer breeds, people did deliberately cross breed dogs to get useful working dogs. 

 

These dogs are not to my taste, but I can see that if they came from well screened parents (which I know they don't) they would have good characteristics for a pet for a lot of people. Muzzle short enough to be cute, but not so short that it distorts the anatomy. Stocky and solid, but not as boofy as a staff. 

 

I'm talking about ideal situations here, though, not the real world!

[Maddy]

17 hours ago, Selkie said:

Oh I totally agree ... I just meant prior to designer breeds, people did deliberately cross breed dogs to get useful working dogs. 

 

These dogs are not to my taste, but I can see that if they came from well screened parents (which I know they don't) they would have good characteristics for a pet for a lot of people. Muzzle short enough to be cute, but not so short that it distorts the anatomy. Stocky and solid, but not as boofy as a staff. 

 

I'm talking about ideal situations here, though, not the real world!

That's assuming you actually get the traits you're after though.You could equally end up with a big, boofy dog with a squashed face. That's the trouble with first gen crosses- unless you know exactly which genes control which traits (without even getting into polygenic traits), and what dominants/recessives you have to work with, it's just a genetic lottery. Best example of that is first gen lab x poodles. Maybe you get a non-shedding coat, maybe your house gets buried in dog hair, who knows.

[Rebanne]

Staffordshire Bull terriers shouldn't be boofy.

[Selkie]

On 6/7/2018 at 4:02 PM, Maddy said:

That's assuming you actually get the traits you're after though.You could equally end up with a big, boofy dog with a squashed face. That's the trouble with first gen crosses- unless you know exactly which genes control which traits (without even getting into polygenic traits), and what dominants/recessives you have to work with, it's just a genetic lottery. Best example of that is first gen lab x poodles. Maybe you get a non-shedding coat, maybe your house gets buried in dog hair, who knows.

That's what I was curious about - because with horses, first cross is usually pretty predictable. An anglo-arab, for example, will usually have a head that is longer than the pure-bred arab's, but retains some of the refinement in the nose. Why so different in dogs? In cattle, the "black baldy" (friesian cow x hereford bull) is instantly recognisable. I suspect that part of the unpredictabliltiy in oodles is the complexity of coat genetics, and also second/third crosses being sold as first cross.

I'm struck by the difference between dog breeding culture and horse culture. At a horse show, you will have categories for pure bred arabs, then there's categories for the arab x ponies, the arab x warmbloods, arabian stockhorses, and so on. 

There are certainly cases in the dog world where the idea of a pure breed is held on to too tightly, to the detriment of dogs. The difficulty in getting the LUA gene into the dalmatians, for instance. 

[The Spotted Devil]

The genetic variability in dogs is ridiculous and I wonder if that’s where the issues arise?

 

The differences between horses is generally not as extreme, even a heavy horse x TB. 

 

Chickens are another classic - high producing egg and meat chickens are typical of high scale farming. But they don’t last long. 

[RuralPug]

@Selkie Those recognised first crosses are always between breeds that are not hugely different. Would you be as happy with a first cross Shetland x Thoroughbred or  say Connemara x Freisian? Pretty pointless wouldn't you say?

I do agree that livestock breeding organisations that allow crossbreeding don't have much of a problem with it. This is because livestock breeders generally cross for good reasons.

The percentage of crossbreed dog breeders that do it for a good reason, and health test all their breeding stock and generally breed ethically is very low indeed.
It is sad. How many times have I seen an owner saying that their puppy was sold to them as CutePopularToylBreed1 x CutePopularToyBreed2 so why is it now 35kg at six months and looking distinctly like a bull breed type? (hands up anyone who has never seen a similar question!)

I see it all the time. This girl, who was surrendered to my rescue before I closed it and joined a national group, was sold to her surrenderer  as a baby puppy as an "Australian Terrier". Of all the breeds that she probably has in her, I doubt very much that Australian Terrier is included. Probably the puppy farmer had no idea there was such a breed and thought they were coining a cutesy name. She is about cocker spaniel size and weight.

[karen15]

Rural pug Teddy O'Connor was a shetland x TB (I'm pretty sure). Competed high level international eventing. There's video everywhere of him. But it isn't an ideal cross, I'd agree with that. 

 

ETA just googled him and he wasn't first cross. Was TB x (shetland x arabian x TB). So nowhere near a straight TB x shetland.

Edited June 8, 2018 by karen15

[Selkie]

I see what you mean Spotted Devil - if you cross two breeds with very different physical characteristics, the outcomes might be less predictable. I think this is partly why, in theory, staffxfb might be sound - there's not huge differences in characteristics (? and temperament).

 

Rural Pug, I guess that's the problem. The theory is sound. The real life practice is anything but.

 

I've heard of a shetland x heavy horse - the accidental mating between a colt and a very determined shetland mare. Apparently it looked like a gypsy cob. I imagine that this was a significant risk to the poor little mare.

[Selkie]

In dogs, I can think of one example of intelligent use of crossbreeding. This was in Finland, I believe, with the German Pinscher. The breed was almost extinct, so they had a very small gene pool to work with. They also had many individuals with uncertain temperaments. They cross bred with the Standard Schnauzer (which historically was the same breed anyway ) and with spaniels. This broadened the gene pool and gave them some better temperaments to work with.

 

In dobermanns, I'd love to use the stumpy tailed cattle dog to introduce the bobtail and upright ear genes. I believe they used corgis to do this in boxers. Both genes are autosomal dominant, so in theory, it would be possible - you'd have to breed down ear size, though, or it would look pretty odd. The big problem would be that in the process, you'd end up with heaps of high -drive high needs dogs (with undesirable characteristics like spotted coats) that needed homes, in a country that's already overrun with crossbred working dogs.

[The Spotted Devil]

@Selkie I would have to disagree re and SBT vs FB. I think they are worlds apart in terms of temperament and structure. Especially if they are poor examples. 

 

Another good example is the Dalmatian outcross to a Pointer in the USA to bring in the LUA gene. Then those dogs were bred back to Dalmatians. I think this was a superb idea and would prefer an LUA Dally now. BUT in the USA blue eyes are permitted in the ring (= more prone to deafness) so there is a great risk that the only way to get LUA lines into your dogs is to use American line Dalmatians and possibly increase the propensity for deafness. I have heard of a few stories around this recently. So it’s never simple. 

[asal]

Clydesdale x Throughbred can have some unexpected outcomes 

Well remember one at a riding school belonged to Mr Sonter the master of the Sydney hunt club in early 70's

Tb head and legs, Clydesdale neck and body. 

His legs Looked like matchsticks under that massive body, very striking boy. Was still leading the hunt ten years later 

As others have said many crosses between breeds bring out the best in both in many instances. 

The Anglo Arab being particularly good, bred and seen many outstanding examples. Sunvally Serene by Fabius, bred by Syd and Mabel Mobberly, Westward Roseanne by Marion Alcorn's Abdullah. Tamanaco,by Fabius from Hedge borough, supreme exhibit 1971 Liverpool show.  1700 entries.   all three won Supreme exhibit between them at many shows 

Another mega winning duo the brother and sister pair Abigail and Midnight Cowboy by Ralvon Aeneas from Lady Fortune, swept both the Anglo and Open rings as well. 

How many remember the almost unbeaten Maluka? 

On average 16 or less bred any one year but massively successful in open rings 

Edited June 9, 2018 by asal

[WoofnHoof]

Also worth considering that crosses in horses in the past don’t always work well these days. Many of the breeds that used to be more generalised riding horses (eg QHs and Arabians) are now much more specialised, as are TBs so you do have a higher chance of a cross not being as complimentary as it once was, especially if you want to ride it and have it sound. Some of the show line Arabians and QHs are barely suitable for riding themselves much less crossing them with something else. Draft crosses have their own problems, again due to how extreme the breeding is now for both breeds, sometimes they work well sometimes you get the best of both worlds sometimes you get the worst, like a friends horse who is heavy as anything in front and also spooky, not a great combo for a riding horse! 

[casowner]

Seeing all of the popularity and issues with Merle Frenchies and them being registered by the 2 other NON ANKC registries makes me feel disgusted to be honest. Puppies up to $30,000 not having all health testing done, breeders denying that merle breeding can have issues and many not even knowing what health testing should be done for their breed apart from colour profiling. Actually a MBDA merle breeder compared them to buying a cheap Japanese car compared to a new Ferrari based on colour only, who gives a rats arse if the Ferrari has a working engine or not. Same breeder denied health issues with merle breedings too. No wonder the RSPCA targets the breed more because of the pricing. $3500 for an ANKC Mains registered show pup in an allowable colour complete with full health testing panel compared to a non recognised colour that can't be shown at ANKC shows that hasn't had all testing for $30,000 yep makes sense

[Selkie]

Spotted Devil, the Dalmatian example is another of how our obsession with not outcrossing our purebreds damages dogs. If we weren't so obsessed, then more people could outcross to the pointer, and there would be more than one strain with which to introduce the gene, and thus the problem with deafness would not be an issue.

 

I think the problem with crossing in horses results from a problem in the breeds themselves. Like dogs, arabs and qh have been overbred - they are sadly departed from the useful breeds they once were. As you say, show ring arabs are really no longer rideable! It's a travesty!

 

It's intersting to look at chicken breeding. There's no such thing as a chicken pedigree, as you can't be sure which hen laid the egg the bird in question hatched from. As a result, a "purebred" chicken is one that has the characteristics of the breed in question. It's quite common for chook breeders to have "project birds" - crossing breeds in to your flock to develop new colours or patterns.

[Selkie]

Rural Pug, that sweet little grey dog - do you think the coat may have come from an Australian Silky Terrier? 

[asal]

5 hours ago, Selkie said:

Spotted Devil, the Dalmatian example is another of how our obsession with not outcrossing our purebreds damages dogs. If we weren't so obsessed, then more people could outcross to the pointer, and there would be more than one strain with which to introduce the gene, and thus the problem with deafness would not be an issue.

 

I think the problem with crossing in horses results from a problem in the breeds themselves. Like dogs, arabs and qh have been overbred - they are sadly departed from the useful breeds they once were. As you say, show ring arabs are really no longer rideable! It's a travesty!

 

It's intersting to look at chicken breeding. There's no such thing as a chicken pedigree, as you can't be sure which hen laid the egg the bird in question hatched from. As a result, a "purebred" chicken is one that has the characteristics of the breed in question. It's quite common for chook breeders to have "project birds" - crossing breeds in to your flock to develop new colours or patterns.

Notice that the cause of the destruction was selecting for the show ring? 

Sadly the common denominator. 

 

Although unlike the dog world those who choose to continue to old, "Un" improved stock don't find fellow breed societies members calling the rspca to harrass  the "farmer", well so far 

Suspect once the dog fraternity are disposed of other breed species are next "pedigree horses exposed" already has plenty of fodder for inclusion already 

Edited June 9, 2018 by asal

[RuralPug]

10 hours ago, Selkie said:

Rural Pug, that sweet little grey dog - do you think the coat may have come from an Australian Silky Terrier? 

I know her coat looks silky in that picture, but she has massive undercoat, which Silkies and Yorkies don't have. Nor does she have that  distinctive long thin nose with forward facing eyes that Silkies tend to share with most of their crosses.
It is more like a Bearded Collie sort of coat.
I sincerely doubt that any of her grandparents were purebred anything LOL but really, who knows?  
She is clipped somewhat Ike a Schnauzer these days (sorry can't find a pic) which suits her quite well.

[sandgrubber]

For working or recreation under hot weather conditions, I think the kelpie x Labrador is a great cross.  I've read that this was the preferred dog for ADF tracking work in Vietnam.  I love Labbies, but they tend to wilt in hot weather.  Kelpies are smart, rugged, and trainable, but tend to be a bit too nervous.  

As a (former) Labrador breeder, I got occasional calls from people with a lot of K9 experience looking specifically for kelpie x Lab.  

No sign that anyone is working towards a new breed (F3+ with selection) that preserves the temperament traits that have made Labs so popular with genes from a smart, heat-tolerant breed...so I'd say there's a case for F1 breeding.

Edited June 9, 2018 by sandgrubber
Typo