Breeding Consecutive Heats

[BoldNFearless]

Been doing some research into this "touchy" topic and would love to hear others thoughts .

 

im under the belief that mother nature (the wild) dogs will breed every heat in a pack situation. Its only us who think its unethical to do so. 
ive read a scientific studies that showed a bitch who was bred every heat did much better then a bitch who bred every second heat. they dissected the uterus after they had bred the bitches and desexed them and found the ones the most damage to be the ones who bred every other heat. And the uterus of the one who bred every heat to be in fairly good condition. It said that a bitch who has a heat and doesnt whelp puppies doesnt have a cleaning out effect of the uterus (this is part what can cause pyo)

 

also it said bitches who arent bred every heat are more prone to cancer,s pyo ad false pregnancies etc 

 

 

thoughts?

[Rebanne]

it really doesn't matter what our personal beliefs are or science says. It's what the ANKC and their various state bodies say that we, as registered breeders, have to abide by.

[Diva]

Breeding on two consecutive heats is fine with me, but that is not the same as breeding EVERY heat. Research on the first does not justify the second.

As for behaviour in the wild, there are a whole lot of limiting environmental conditions in the wild that don’t get to work their influence when we start making the decisions. 

[BoldNFearless]

yup ANKC rules on what WE do with OUR Dogs gotta love it 


yeh sorry i do mean just the once off, not that i would do more then 2 consecutive matings and rules say cant have 3 litters in 18 months. i know people who breed bitches every heat cos their heats are  more then 6 months appart so the litters are being born 1-3 months outside the 3 in 18 months so they get away with it. 

 

my point on the wild is its natural for dogs to do so... might not be what they want but they do and they handle it just fine. 

 

in my opinion most people who i know who bitches end up having Pyo is because they havent mated them, very rarely have i heard bitches who have been bred get it ... yes they do i know but 90% of the time its bitches who have never been bred or they wait until 4+ for thier first litter

[Diva]

Is your point just that breeding back to back is better for pyo risk? I think that is fairly well known but pyo risk isn’t all that people base their decisions on. I have never had pyo in mine,  touch wood, even though most of my bitches are entire their whole lives and never bred. 

As for wild dogs, they  often come into season every 12 months not 6, much as the more primitive breeds still do. Talking to a Basenji breeder is interesting.  In the wild breeding is also responsive to the natural variation in the availability of resources, competition for breeding rights, and high infant mortality. Not really a comparable situation to breeding a domestic bitch. 

 

[Rebanne]

On 5/21/2018 at 8:20 AM, BoldNFearless said:

yup ANKC rules on what WE do with OUR Dogs gotta love it 


yeh sorry i do mean just the once off, not that i would do more then 2 consecutive matings and rules say cant have 3 litters in 18 months. i know people who breed bitches every heat cos their heats are  more then 6 months appart so the litters are being born 1-3 months outside the 3 in 18 months so they get away with it. 

 

my point on the wild is its natural for dogs to do so... might not be what they want but they do and they handle it just fine. 

 

in my opinion most people who i know who bitches end up having Pyo is because they havent mated them, very rarely have i heard bitches who have been bred get it ... yes they do i know but 90% of the time its bitches who have never been bred or they wait until 4+ for thier first litter

I'm one whose bitches cycle every 10 months or so, plenty of time to recover from a litter, so theoretically could breed every heat or nearly so. My breed also often doesn't cycle before 2 1/2 to 3 years of age. Lots of my breed don't have their first litter until after 4. In the wild I would think it is more normal to come into season every 12 months or so. I doubt they handle it fine at anytime. They manage with what they have. Small litters, high death rates etc. Comparing wild to domestic is like apples to oranges.

[asal]

The problem is the ankc's have rolled over to the animal rights mobs, the rules they have made were never done on the advice of repro expert vets. 

Be careful we are being monitored on all fronts

By  saying this will probably get me another letter in the mail warning me I have made a criticism of the ankc and have received one warning letter this year . been a member since 1978 this is the first one I have received, even though for decades I kept saying, select for health over show fashion since 1979. Fell on deaf ears until the screening of "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" the writing was on the wall for decades, no one took any notice.

 

Today we have no rights anymore, its toe the party  line or else.  Even if you don't know what is or isn't allowed either apparently?

 

Mind you there was no information as to what or where, whatever I said had occurred?

Or any information to advise me  how many transgressions in future will get me kicked out. Or even what is banned from saying?

Didn't even bother to tell me what I had said was the cause of the first warning.  Big brother is watching.

we are no longer members of an organisation that we have any control or rights to question big brother, that letter I received proved that.

 

How many of you are aware that a recent board meeting decided all members who bred ten litters or more last year will be inspected?  no routine checking of all members, just target one group.

 

I was astounded to learn how few of the 33,341.00  australia wide members actually breed ten litters or more.  Only 86 Breeders AUSTRALIA WIDE ( 1.3%) had more than 10 Litters

I think I posted it somewhere but forget where.

food for thought

keep this up and there will be so few purebred dogs IN TEN YEARS maybe less, will qualify for the endangered lists very soon

 

http://ankc.org.au/media/6598/a-forensic-view-of-puppy-breeding-in-australiav4.pdf

Edited July 27, 2018 by asal

[Pucapo]

Just revisiting this thread following a chat with an old school friend who now lives in North Qld.

 

She and her neighbour have a business together breeding cross bred poodles. (Oodles of some sort)

 

They mate their females on the second season, and then breed for five consecutive seasons before speying the female. She claims the females have very even numbered litters,  have no problems, and are under 5 years old when they can be rehomed.  

 

I KNOW we I cannot do this under our ANKC rules. And not planning on it. I just thought it was interesting.

 

We bred beef cattle for many years and the cow had a calf once a year, was pregnant for 9 months, and was still feeding her big calf when impregnated again.  

 

One has to wonder why well nourished dogs are any different?

[sandgrubber]

Hey everyone, when you talk about studies, please give references.   Such things vary by breed, age, nutrition etc.  Plus some research is dubious due to small sample size, selection bias, lack of controls and so on.

ATM my reading is that evidence is inconclusive 

[Rebanne]

2 hours ago, Pucapo said:

 

 

She and her neighbour have a business together breeding cross bred poodles. (Oodles of some sort)

 

They mate their females on the second season, and then breed for five consecutive seasons before speying the female. She claims the females have very even numbered litters,  have no problems, and are under 5 years old when they can be rehomed.  

 

 

Those poor, poor dogs. Of course she would claim there are no problems. No doubt they charge a pretty penny for their off casts as well

[Dogsfevr]

11 hours ago, Pucapo said:

Just revisiting this thread following a chat with an old school friend who now lives in North Qld.

 

She and her neighbour have a business together breeding cross bred poodles. (Oodles of some sort)

There’s the key word business .

 

[asal]

On 02/06/2021 at 6:40 AM, Pucapo said:

Just revisiting this thread following a chat with an old school friend who now lives in North Qld.

 

She and her neighbour have a business together breeding cross bred poodles. (Oodles of some sort)

 

They mate their females on the second season, and then breed for five consecutive seasons before speying the female. She claims the females have very even numbered litters,  have no problems, and are under 5 years old when they can be rehomed.  

 

I KNOW we I cannot do this under our ANKC rules. And not planning on it. I just thought it was interesting.

 

We bred beef cattle for many years and the cow had a calf once a year, was pregnant for 9 months, and was still feeding her big calf when impregnated again.  

 

One has to wonder why well nourished dogs are any different?

 

 

they aren't.

 

 The difference is the ankc crumbled to the pressure of the peta loonies and changed in the stupid belief it would placate them and the fur children people who know zilch about dog reproduction.  As my vet said when he learned of the new rules

, well they obviously didn't bother to consult any reproduction vets first.

 

in the "bad" old days bitches had their puppies while young and retired before they were old enough to start producing downs syndrome puppies, yep, it happens in dogs too as the mum aged. but hey we have to placate the loonie tunes they have the pollies ear.

 

 

 

In the race to  embraced so many stupid things in their eagerness to be seen to be "ethical" and "responsible" along with never sell with main register in case the puppy falls into the hands of a puppy farm, along with never breed to supply anyone with a pet, thats just being a multiplier.  only breed a litter to replace the parents.  Well that's gone well.  precious few can access a purebred so continual loss  to the tune of tens of thousands of less members, tens of thousands of less puppies born along with I suspect 90% of what is born goes on limit register. as for the percentage that are desexed before they are three months old?

 

22.03 million (2010)

23.82 million (2015)

 

25,771,295

 

The current population of Australia is 25,771,295 as of Thursday, June 3, 2021, based on Worldometer elaboration of the latest United Nations data.

 

since according to this "

48 per cent

 

Among pet-owning individuals, dogs are by far the most popular. Almost 72 per cent of pet-owning people – which is 48 per cent of all Australians – have a dog."

 

whare are they going to find one, well unless they breed their own or clone what they have?

 

Dog people are too busy suspecting every other ankc member is a puppy farmer to hound out of the membership, no chance of actually uniting,  few seem to twig,     "united we stand, divided we fall"  applies?

See so few sticking with each other and using our massive numbers, tens of thousands more than the loonies the pollies think they need to please to get their precious votes.

 

Its nothing to do with animal welfare or they would not have drafted the POCTA, which is what? the blueprint for a commercial puppy farm and to which every registered breeder has to comply, just to keep it interesting the enforcers change the interpretation not only from week to week but even in the same day between visiting one place and then going to another which has caused massive stress, confusion and panic in the targeted demographic. To pass you are then officially a puppy farm?   Umm wasn't it drafted to eliminate puppy farms?   

 

 

Yes we have come a long way, every step of it backwards in regards to the continuation of our much loved breeds, encouraging new members? (well that went out the window) the health of our breeding bitches (anyone else noticing how obese the girls run to so easily when its a year or more before they have another litter?  what is the down side of obese? reduced litter size, bigger puppies as a result so higher risk of dystocia, or in the case of a some can go years to never go back in pup. As my vet said, dogs evolved to have their litters young.  

 Along with so many breeds now with numbers so low if they were wild species would be on the critically endangered list.

 

so much so that Peta in a radio interview on Melbourne cup week expect the extinction of the domestic dog in the lifetime of the present generation.

 

even the ankc figures show how successful the program has proven.

While our population grows our ankc breeder membership is looking a bit like heading for freefall into unsustainability of a significant number of breeds, but I think the organisation will continue as a pleasure group for dog lovers of any kind, with obedience, herding, community days for the remaining x breds that are available in far greater numbers, well so far but most of their breeders are desexing early to protect their prices so equally dead end kennels . 

 

No wonder Peta are so confidant and pleased

 

 

 

 

but hey speak up and show you spotted the emperor has no clothes is darned dangerous

 

 

I noticed that Peta's agenda is to move to the elimination of racehorses, have all horses decared companion animals and breeding as restricted as the dogs with extinction the agenda. 

then the move to cattle reproduction being restricted,

The ground work is already laid, remember the, "we have to eliminate cattle methane"?

 

conveniently ignoring feeding to reduce methane in only domesticated cattle or reducing their greenhouse contributing gasses is not addressing the fact that kg for kg every ruminant mammal is producing it, wild and domesticated.

 

then what is being done to address the billions of homo sapiens busily producing what?  methane!

 

any spotted methane reducing food for the humans?

 

The future is going to be an interesting  place

Edited June 3, 2021 by asal

[asal]

On 02/06/2021 at 5:47 PM, Dogsfevr said:

There’s the key word business .

 

 

 

very true. no ankc member should ever breed but to replace the parents for themselves. or your what? a business/puppy farm.  eliminate, eliminate

 

let the business puppy farms be where people can find a pet. and they are. in droves but even the x breeders cant supply the shortfall because they are dead enders too.  My niece just paid $7,000 for her precious blue merle cavoodle already desexed at 8 weeks fur baby. umm since when was merle or blue to be found in that x?

 

only the true backyard family dogs scattered in homes by the tens millions will be where pet people can find a pup that isn't going to cost them 5,000 to 10,000 n up each and they will never get POCTA inspected

 

 

although they can adopt instead of shop. as long as they are happy with the fact the majority are not the breed or temperament they actually want.

 

friends daughter dumped her "rescue" with her mum after it trashed her place, Wonder if that's why it ended up in the rspca kennels? 

got out and spent the next 2 hours trying to kill her three horses. only the fact the one in 60 year floods were going through her property made it a little more difficult for it to tear them apart as she had to swim after them as they fled into deeper and deeper water while my friend frantically tried to call and catch her. only after exhaustion tempted her to seek ground so she didn't drown gave her the chance to catch her.

 

as for the horses?  noses, chests, sides, necks, flanks and legs torn and punctured. the dog was having a wonderful fun time. she believes they only survived because she had three to tear at so the sum total of damage was spread between the three, saved them from being fatal if her attention had been solely on one   in the time frame before exhaustion had finally caused her to head back out of the water.  Frankly  think its a pity one of the three had not been a dog killer. 

 

Soon as she could get it in the car it was at the vets and euthanised.   the breed?  ah yes never blame the breed, only the deed. trouble is, am staffs are not only cute and affectionate to humans, are also beautifully built to inflict massive damage if the opportunity presents.

 

the horses?

all needed antibiotics,  stiches and ongoing attention due to the higher infections rate due to  the flood water complications, but survived and now she has a few thousand in vet bills to pay off her credit card, well it passed their temperament test? Obviously not checked on its behaviour to large animals though.  How did it get out?  Spotted the horses after daughter and her kids had left, was strong and heavy enough to buckle the gate to get out and play.

 

Suspect daughter nor mother will ever adopt instead of shop again

unless its the small breed they wanted in the first place, trouble is there is precious few of that ilk to be found to adopt

Edited June 3, 2021 by asal

[asal]

On 16/05/2018 at 5:33 PM, BoldNFearless said:

Been doing some research into this "touchy" topic and would love to hear others thoughts .

 

im under the belief that mother nature (the wild) dogs will breed every heat in a pack situation. Its only us who think its unethical to do so. 
ive read a scientific studies that showed a bitch who was bred every heat did much better then a bitch who bred every second heat. they dissected the uterus after they had bred the bitches and desexed them and found the ones the most damage to be the ones who bred every other heat. And the uterus of the one who bred every heat to be in fairly good condition. It said that a bitch who has a heat and doesnt whelp puppies doesnt have a cleaning out effect of the uterus (this is part what can cause pyo)

 

also it said bitches who arent bred every heat are more prone to cancer,s pyo ad false pregnancies etc 

 

 

thoughts?

 

 

Also ignores the fact domestic dogs have been domesticated for tens of thousands of years doing exactly that and and benefited by being far better fed than those in the wild.

 

exactly my vets opinion and as he said experience with 40 years in practice.

 

As for the newbie vets, the majority it seems cant wait to desex every pup they see come into the surgery, the sooner the better.   He calls the newbies, "licenced now, to learn at your expense"

 

anyway its only opinion and discussion.  the die has been cast and little chance of change in any form

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by asal