Puppy issues overnight

[karen15]

Does he need a crate downstairs if he has the pen down there? I've got two dogs and 8 dog beds..... They have a bed where ever they will sleep for a prolonged time. You can get cheap ones from the cheap shops - the ones i have in the lounge room were $10 each and are wearing well.  So, it might be possible to have a normal bed in the pen and his crate in your room. 

[Gettehlife]

I'm experimenting with his crate in my room tonight as I feel that'll reduce the whining and barking as he'll definitely be able to see me and know I'm here, and that's all he needs. Whereas downstairs in the living room he was probably a couple metres away that he couldn't see me when I slept on the couch

 

I plan to train his independence during the day, and leave him in the playpen when I can't supervise him like running a quick errand. I'm gonna leave the crate there and leave something on to record to see if he uses it. When I had the playpen around his crate, he rarely ever went into his crate except when he went to sleep. So maybe this is a better solution

[Boronia]

On 4/10/2018 at 9:27 PM, karen15 said:

Don't stop him napping. My westie is three and doesn't make it through the night without going to the toilet. Neither do I, so how can i expect him to? The dog door is open and on the odd occasion it isn't, he gives a single bark or a growl if it's super urgent.

 

 

A little off topic here:   ...Karen, regarding your Westie, he shouldn't need a wee during the night, all mine have hung on until morning quite easily (well until Penny was 16 anyway), you may find he will not need to go if his night-time meal is raw meat and vegie slops or raw meat with liquid, I found that mine used to drink heaps after dinner-time if I fed them kibble and then they needed a wee during the night. If you are already feeding him raw at night it may be a plan to see your vet as a three y/o should be able to hang on at night-time easily

[Gettehlife]

Update: I put him to bed at 10:30pm and took him out to potty around 1am instead of 2:30am as I was still awake, he went back in without any issues. He woke up at 4:30 and I took him out to the toilet but he didn't need it so I put him back and he whined for a bit but was okay after. Then he woke up at 6am. 

 

I'm not sure if I should try to see if he'll go the whole night without needing a potty break (10:30/11:00 - 6/6:30) or continue letting him up once around 2:30/3:00 like when he was downstairs and slowly progress from there

[Boronia]

try the 2.30-3.00 and if he does a wee in-between times just go back to your 10.30-11/6.00-6.30

He is still a baby so be prepared for wet bedding

[Dogsfevr]

i would go the whole night ,you are training the dog to wake up through the night .What you need to be training is asking to go out ,be let out of crate or alert you to needing out .When you keep doing the routine your taking away the learning process .
During the day never carry pup out ,we do prepare training inside a tad earlier to make the fun of going to the door & the reward of weeing outside so awesome .
Going to the door is always rewarded with straight outside to the preferred toilet spot ,i train the babies onleash but more because there showdogs & toileting onlead isn't natural to all dogs .

[Gettehlife]

1 hour ago, Dogsfevr said:

i would go the whole night ,you are training the dog to wake up through the night .What you need to be training is asking to go out ,be let out of crate or alert you to needing out .When you keep doing the routine your taking away the learning process .
During the day never carry pup out ,we do prepare training inside a tad earlier to make the fun of going to the door & the reward of weeing outside so awesome .
Going to the door is always rewarded with straight outside to the preferred toilet spot ,i train the babies onleash but more because there showdogs & toileting onlead isn't natural to all dogs .

I really like your way of training as I do want him to be more independent, as soon as no humans are around he starts to struggle and needs attention which I don't want. He's too reliant on me and any human to live his life.

 

I'm writing a letter to my neighbours letting them know he may be loud during the day because I'm going to begin to train him that crying and barking doesn't get my attention

[Tassie]

Thanks for the pics.   He's very sweet and looks lovely and bright.

 

In your situation, I would be getting an extra crate so it can stay in your bedroom.  Yes .. pain to have to carry them. .. I have to do that when we're staying in dog briendly accommodation .. it gets a bit old if you're on the move.       You can usually get wire crates fairly cheaply . sometimes from 'cheap shops/discount stored .. bricks and mortar, or online.  I've bought several that way and they're not bad quality and not too exxy.    Then although you can get nice covers, you don't need one .. an old blanket or two will do the job nicely.   Wire crate does need to be covered though to make it den like.

 

As far as crate training goes .. plenty of good how to resources on line ..basics ... super good things come in the crate (any crate) .. so you can have one downstairs and one upstairs .. do some training in both places.  If you time pup's going to bed to coincide with you then shouldn't be a drama.   Just make sure there are always good treats as he goes in.     My girl had had some crate experience at her breeders .. then an all day trip .. long car journey and two interstate flights to get here .. arrived 10.30 pm .. then into an airline crate once she'd had a chance to look around the house and settle down .. and be taken out for toilet.   She slept through with only one break that night,  and sleeps all night through now.   Her ordinary crates (one in family room,  one in car, and one for travelling/shows, trials etc.  are folding wire crates .

 

 

[Gettehlife]

1 hour ago, Tassie said:

Thanks for the pics.   He's very sweet and looks lovely and bright.

 

In your situation, I would be getting an extra crate so it can stay in your bedroom.  Yes .. pain to have to carry them. .. I have to do that when we're staying in dog briendly accommodation .. it gets a bit old if you're on the move.       You can usually get wire crates fairly cheaply . sometimes from 'cheap shops/discount stored .. bricks and mortar, or online.  I've bought several that way and they're not bad quality and not too exxy.    Then although you can get nice covers, you don't need one .. an old blanket or two will do the job nicely.   Wire crate does need to be covered though to make it den like.

 

As far as crate training goes .. plenty of good how to resources on line ..basics ... super good things come in the crate (any crate) .. so you can have one downstairs and one upstairs .. do some training in both places.  If you time pup's going to bed to coincide with you then shouldn't be a drama.   Just make sure there are always good treats as he goes in.     My girl had had some crate experience at her breeders .. then an all day trip .. long car journey and two interstate flights to get here .. arrived 10.30 pm .. then into an airline crate once she'd had a chance to look around the house and settle down .. and be taken out for toilet.   She slept through with only one break that night,  and sleeps all night through now.   Her ordinary crates (one in family room,  one in car, and one for travelling/shows, trials etc.  are folding wire crates .

 

 

I did plan on buying a higher quality crate as i'm currently using one I got from Kmart and it's quite flimsy so i'll likely take that one into my room and leave the better one downstairs

[Dogsfevr]

My dogs sleep on my bed ,there show dogs that spend a lot of time with me and I work from home we have active gundogs and companion breed .

In the past as a kid parents worked dogs home alone but the most important thing we can do is teach dog survival at home ,a needy dog is not a pleasure and we can create our own long term monsters from puppy stage .

I love the fact my dogs who don’t all run together are happy dogs who will happily amuse themselves during the day because they now how too .

New puppy owners can fit into helicopter parenting ,keep it simple ,keep it practical .

A dog is a life p,ensure and when it can be it’s happy joyous self it makes the partnership a great thing 

[suziwong66]

I train pups in a similar fashion to Dogsfevr. Pups sleep in their travel crate at bed height next to me until they can no longer fit into it (for both my current labs it was about 12 weeks) and then i swap it out for a wire crate at the end of my bed. I let the pup wake me up to toilet it; have never had an accident with any of my crated pups. I don't keep toys in the night crate and i don't feed pup in the night sleeping crate. Pup goes out on lead and i train it to evacuate on command, i praise and we go back inside - all very low key. Pup goes into crate and then it's lights out again; low engagement and plenty of calm from me. 

 

In the evenings, pups sleep in a living room crate while we're watching tv etc and we also actively teach them to relax on a mat (they're usually tied out on a mat until they learn no to wander). At bedtime, pup comes with me to their bedroom crate.

 

After a few months of sleeping in a crate at the end of my bed and they've established themselves as being able to hold onto their bladder all night, I move them out to their crate in the living room. During all this time, i also train using Susan Garrett's Crate Games DVD.

 

Both our labs (3yrs and 6 years) sleep in their individual crates downstairs; i lock the crate doors to make sure there is no playing during the night. Occasionally i have left their crate doors open at night and they've been found out of their crates but over on their mats asleep. The general rule, is that if you come downstairs early, don't engage with the dogs; and thus they have never learned to get excited in the morning when family members get up and come downstairs.

 

I can't tell you how convenient it is to have dogs that evacuate on command; totally worth the effort.

[Gettehlife]

So it's been a couple of days and I must say both my brother and I have no issues with him overnight now. We take him for one last potty before he sleeps, then one more just before we sleep (usually around 12-1am) then my brother takes him out before he goes to work around 6am. All of this with no noise or barking throughout the night so no more restless nights, I'm really appreciative of everyone's help and suggestions as this is 10x better than what I was experiencing last week

 

Now onto the next issue, these last two weeks I've been on holidays (currently a full-time uni student) and I'm back to uni next week. I'm debating whether I should leave him in his crate or playpen while I'm gone. The obvious answer would be the playpen for more room, but he seems to be a lot more anxious when I leave him in the playpen than in the crate. Basically the pros and cons of each are as follows

 

Crate

Pros

- Less anxiety

- Positive association with the crate

Cons

- Less space

- Potential of accidents in the crate

 

Playpen

Pros

- Larger space (for toys, moving around, etc.)

- Less potential for accidents

Cons

- More anxious when left in the playpen (especially when I leave)

 

My schedule for classes are

9am-1pm on Mondays and Tuesdays

8am-10am on Thursdays.

 

Though realistically I leave around an hour before I have class to make it on time, meaning the time away from him will be more like 8am-1:30pm on Mondays and Tuesdays and 7:15am-10:30am on Thursdays.

 

I don't know if I'm just overthinking this and it's a lot simpler than I think cause I feel a bit confused as to what to do

[Rozzie]

This is what I used for when my dogs were puppies and I was gone to work, generally 7 - 8 hours.From Vebo Pets.

 

[Dogsfevr]

First off don’t get sucked into using words that aren’t describing your dog .

Anxiety is a big issue that requires a whole lot of work .

Most pups take time to adjust to new routines but the more complicated you make it the higher risk you have of creating issues .

The set up ROzzie has we have done ,easy peasy .

But dont over think problems ,puppy raising isn’t complicated 

[Gettehlife]

54 minutes ago, Dogsfevr said:

First off don’t get sucked into using words that aren’t describing your dog .

Anxiety is a big issue that requires a whole lot of work .

Most pups take time to adjust to new routines but the more complicated you make it the higher risk you have of creating issues .

The set up ROzzie has we have done ,easy peasy .

But dont over think problems ,puppy raising isn’t complicated 

Yeah anxiety definitely isn't the right word to describe him, more like uneasy or uncomfortable. I'll experiment with the playpen over the next few days and see how he copes

 

I definitely think I am overthinking and over complicating everything, guess it's just hard to know what's best for him

[KobiD]

It's just more of the same.

 

Setup the scenario you'd like to see and make it rewarding to the animal. Start with shorter duration and build on it.

 

For us, every time we would leave the house (if for 20mins or several hours) and the puppy alone she would have a frozen stuffed kong to work on. This is something she enjoys and keeps her mentally focused for a period of time. She's also happy to play with her kong once the treats have been eaten. Rather than seeing the family getting ready to leave as something that she is missing she would then associate it with the opportunity to get a reward. By mixing up the duration of time we'd be gone for (and starting shorter trips) she learnt that someone always comes back. Again, reward with a nice cuddle, a game, some more treats etc. 

 

Overall you just want the process to be something the puppy enjoys vs something that leaves them wanting. I watch what ours does when we are home, and figure odds are that she does the same when we're out.. which is mostly finding a comfortable place to rest and snoozing between playing with her toys. 

[Tassie]

Such a good update on the great overnight routine.   Well done!

 

The set up that Rozzie has pictured is great ... combination of the crate for security and the xpen for being able to move around if he wants to.    And totally agree with the special treat for when you leave.   Frozen stuffed Kongs are ideal    nice and soothing for when teething time comes. too.  Don't leave anything potentially dangerous with an unsupervised pup ... so nothing that can be destuffed or shredded and eaten .. but Kongs, and robust puzzle bowls would be fine.

 

You're only overthinking things because you want to do right by your pup .. and that is not a bad thing.       You and he have shown that you're all good learners .. so just sit back and enjoy puppyhood.

[Gettehlife]

So this is a bit strange, I trialed leaving him in the pen alone while I had my ipad recording him and got two very different results

 

1. I left him in the pen with the frozen peanut butter kong and kong wobbler and as soon as I left to go upstairs he started whining and barking, taking about 5-10 minutes to settle before I came down around 20-30 minutes later

 

2. I left him in the pen with whatever was left in the kong and the wobbler, but this time I left the house he just sat as he watched me leave then eventually just slept. Keep in mind I did this immediately after me coming back from upstairs so I know he wasn't more tired by this time. Unfortunately for my testing but fortunately for Ollie my dad came home about 20 minutes after I left, but my ipad kept on recording and he just kept on sleeping until I got home about 2 hours later

 

One thing I did notice was that he never goes into his crate willingly on his own. He much rather sleep on the tile floor. Am I doing something wrong with my crate training, possibly not working hard enough at it? He goes in fine when I put water and food in there and close the door. Sometimes I put him in there if I MUST do something and can't supervise him. Both times he'll stay quiet and won't really whine, sometimes eventually getting bored and laying down then eventually sleeping. But he would never go in the crate with the door open on his own accord (unless he saw me throw a treat in there, but then immediately comes out). It's like he doesn't mind staying in there, but if given the option he wouldn't go in.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Gettehlife

[karen15]

The difference in your scenarios is that in the first you were home. When you leave he isn't silly. He knows he can't get your attention. If you're just upstairs, then he knows you can hear him.

[Tassie]

You and he are coming on well.   As you've been advised before ... don't overthink things.   It'll do your head in.    My Border Collies ....9..5 years  and 13 months ....never go  in their crates without being given a treat ... maybe only a small one.   I always want to maintain high value for the crate.   Nothing wrong with that in my book.        

 

As far as the being left goes .. totally agree with Karen15 ... two different scenarios .. and puppy had already had a good rehearsal the second time round.

 

Not sure if the crate is covered or not .... covering a crate with something like a cheapo polar fleece blanket, tends to make it more den like and more attractive.   In fact I couldn't find my puppy the other evening .. knew she hadn't gone out .. checked various spaces .... didn't think of her family room crate, but that was where she had gone for a nap.  The blanket was partly over the open door, so I hadn't seen her. 

 

Oh and the sleeping on tiles  ... they tend to do that if they get a bit warm, even if we don't think it's warm.