Livestock guardians???

[Rascalmyshadow]

We are considering getting a maremma or possibly another type of livestock guardian, I would like some advice from those that own them or have experience with them.

 

We are having serious issues with foxes and crows. I have lost multiple chickens and both my geese to foxes and I have had crows trying to attack my silkys and my pekin rooster.

 

They are all locked up at night but they've been taken/attacked in the daytime, fox has even gone over a six foot chain link fence so  keeping  them in the run isn't safe,  normally they free range all day.

 

We are on an acre in the country, farm land behind us, the whole property is well fenced (previous owners had maremmas at one stage), the block isn't open land it is full of trees, shrubs, gardens etc.

 

I have my two little dogs (both male) and four cats, as well as three kids (two older plus my toddler).

 

I am generally always home, I can contain a dog with the chooks in a good size run if necessary, finances aren't great but we always find the money for vet bills etc when needed.

 

 I am well experienced with dogs of all sizes but never owned these breeds.

 

I haven't had much luck so far contacting breeders or rescue to get more information, no one bothers to return calls.

 

At this stage I am trying to gather as much info as possible (might never get one) to decide if we are even a suitable home.

 

 

 

[PossumCorner]

A few people near us have Maremmas.  One of the drawbacks is their frequent barking both day and night which can cause serious neighbour difficulties.  To be honest, balancing the cost of a good pup or young dog, and as you mention best care vet etc for the first year, would probably pay for a large chook pen or two - fully fenced and netted over - proof against foxes and birds.  I do see Maremmas kept in pens with poultry, and it looks like a miserable life even for a guardian dog.  They are often of no benefit against birds, simply not regarding birds as 'the enemy'.  One distant neighbour with two Maremmas and a Bernese still loses poultry to foxes all too often - inadequate pens and too much reliance on the dogs.

 

We have considered taking on a Maremma, have breeders nearby with health tested quality dogs at 'pet' prices, unregistered, good working strains, around $600-800 for an 8-12 week pup.  Looking at it from every viewpoint I know it would not be right for me: Rheneas wouldn't cope well, and at 14 he deserves not to have the stress of a new dog.  Two neighbours are within barking sound: I hear their dogs but they are not frequent or loud barkers at all, very different.  I don't mean to sound negative, and know that Maremmas work brilliant for some poultry owners, but wouldn't be a good fit on our 12 acres.

 

I do put a lot of trust in the alpacas as guardians.  They are good at it, must be two or three as they need own-kind company, and one to guard while the other sleeps etc.  A couple can live on a half-acre with supplementary feed, probably cheaper to buy and maintain well than a Maremma even if on full hard feed when grazing is scarce.  They bond to sheep best, but will guard poultry quite effectively.  When I lose a chook or duck to foxes it's because I've put the alpacas in another paddock instead of having them close to the pens.  Again they are not so great against birds, but not hopeless either.  And of course alpacas will graze on any garden they are given access to, so that's a planning/design challenge to save the roses.

 

Geese and ducks: crows and even worse magpies wait and watch til an egg is laid and grab it.  The only sure protection is overhead netting - and a dog of any kind is seldom proofed against eating an egg laid under its nose, that's not a fair expectation.

 

All up it's a lot to consider: I guess my ideal would be alpacas, but also one or two good small dogs, Jack Russel or something active and confident, that would be the childrens' best mates and always close to them and the house for garden area protection of chooks.  And won't demoralise visitors.  Plus very sound pens and runs following fox-proofing rules.      

[DogsAndTheMob]

An excellent post, PC. 

 

I second your comments about Maremmas barking. My neighbours have Maremmas, which bark day and night and still bark when we drive in our own front gate, even although they’ve grown up with us doing so. On the one occasion when they had a serious crisis, I thought I heard voices but they were drowned out by the sound of dogs barking, and in the end I didn’t investigate because those dogs always bark.

 

I don’t think they’d provide much protection from crows. We keep finding sawed up bones in our paddocks; the magpies steal them from the Maremmas and drop them over here.

 

On the plus side, they happily co-exist with cats and other dogs, although when one of their other dogs picked a fight the maremma caused a lot of injury. They seem to be okay with visiting children but treed a tradesman on top of his car. The owner - who was there and thought it was funny - told me about it.

Edited March 26, 2018 by DogsAndTheMob

[Rascalmyshadow]

Thanks for your feedback, unfortunately we can't cover the pen as it has two huge trees, we would have no way to get netting over the top, there is only one area on the property we could set up another pen, it's at the very back and can't be seen from the house or main yard, not an ideal spot, I also don't really want to keep them in a pen, I like them wandering around, coming up to the back door and being part of the family.

 

We don't keep our chooks in their pen they free range, we generally only lock them up in the day time if we are using the whipper snipper, brush cutter etc. and that is just for their safety, what I meant is the pen is there if we had to lock up a dog for any reason.

 

I had thought about alpacas but all research I have done suggests they don't do that well guarding poultry, also how destructive are they? Most of our property has beautiful gardens, numerous trees/plants are worth a lot of money so I don't want something that will destroy them.

 

Sorry to sound so negative but there are two breeds of dog I don't really like and one of those is Jack Russell's, would never own one.

 

I know the livestock guardians are big barkers but if they are constant barkers then you are right they probably aren't suitable.

 

[Rascalmyshadow]

Question do they tend to bark more at what they can see or hear? Or do they just bark at everything.

[DogsAndTheMob]

My neighbours’ Maremmas bark at both sights and sounds. Several times, I’ve got up in the middle of the night to see if there’s a problem because their barking has been more frantic than usual, but been unable to identify what they’re barking about. They take a long time to settle down, too. As a neighbour, I’m prepared to tolerate their noise because we’re a reasonable distance away, but I’m not sure I could do so if we lived on a smaller acreage.

 

It may be worth investigating other guardian breeds. Their youngest dog is less hysterical and may be a different breed (possibly Pyrenean Mountain dog, although from what I’ve read they bark a lot too), a cross or come from different bloodlines, because he looks a bit different - he has a squarer body, a higher tail-set and a more solid head.

Edited March 26, 2018 by DogsAndTheMob

[PossumCorner]

21 hours ago, Rascalmyshadow said:

 .... We are having serious issues with foxes and crows. I have lost multiple chickens and both my geese to foxes and I have had crows trying to attack my silkys and my pekin rooster.  ....   they've been taken/attacked in the daytime, ....   At this stage I am trying to gather as much info as possible  .... We don't keep our chooks in their pen they free range ....

 

It's tough Rascal, and you've really answered your own question.  I started here seven years ago with the plan of all the poultry being out and free to run about all day long.  I have given up on that, it does not work.  Maybe three months will pass without a hitch, then total disaster strikes.  Guardian animals paws or hooves have to sleep, or eat, or take time out because they feel like it (like all of us).  If there is only one the ask is too great.  The guardian is only one tool in the box, second to good pens and total vigilance when they are 'out'. 

 

I had a Rottweiler who was efficient, certainly as good as any Maremma I've known.  (Bone cancer took Piper three years ago).  A Shetland Sheepdog cross - Rheneas was great on foxes til he tackled one and was bitten and beaten and lucky to survive - it made him very circumspect about them, and he's now over 14 and totally an inside dog.  Frodo was a black poodle cross and always stalked from overhead by eagles, I wouldn't get a really soft natured dog again, they seem to recognise this from a distance.  You're not negative, there are lots of strong small dogs besides JRs, even cross-breds.

 

Another excellent aid is electric fencing, upfront outlay say between $500-1000.  Again it is not 100% at all times, but combined with locking in pens at night has proved very effective for some if it is done right.  (I'd do that around the geese if I didn't have alpacas surrounding them).

[W T]

@OP: for a fraction of the costs of a good guard dog and without further running costs you could buy a live fox trap (approx. AU$ 100) - if you catch another animal by accident you can set it free, if it's a fox you can kill it humanely.

There also "crow" traps, but that's another animal (literally ) as "crows" are native (but not every black bigger bird is a crow) so legally you are not allowed to kill them.

[Rascalmyshadow]

I thought about electric fencing is it safe enough that it wouldn't seriously injure my cats?

 

When we were living in suburbia we never had an issue with foxes even when my next door neighbours kept losing their chickens, the dogs we have seemed to be enough of a deterance, but here there is just too much space and coverage.

 

My oldest cat (8.5kg) has even been attacked, left a nasty chest wound.

[Rascalmyshadow]

5 minutes ago, W T said:

@OP: for a fraction of the costs of a good guard dog and without further running costs you could buy a live fox trap (approx. AU$ 100) - if you catch another animal by accident you can set it free, if it's a fox you can kill it humanely.

There also "crow" traps, but that's another animal (literally ) as "crows" are native (but not every black bigger bird is a crow) so legally you are not allowed to kill them.

Where do I look for fox traps? Would removing them just allow for another to take its place?

I'm sure my local vet would euthanise.

 

The thing is so persistent it actually found the spot where my husband buried one of the chickens and dug it up, also bent the flap my chooks use to get in and out (not the main door) obviously it's a decent size.

[W T]

evil bay, crazysales, farm markets - of course it is not a final solution, but the ones you catch won't kill your chicken. If you apply a fox trapping regime with 2 - 3 traps you move regularly along the circumferences of your premises you likely would get them before they get your chickens. Still cheaper and less work than buying, feeding and training a guard dog.

[Rascalmyshadow]

Thanks sounds like a good idea, il check online tonight and see what I can find. I would prefer not to get another dog but I hadn't thought of many other options.

wWhat is the best thing to use as bait?

[W T]

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Humane-Animal-Trap-Cage-Possum-Fox-Koala-Rabbit-Bird-Cat-Live-Catch-Folding/352138343630?epid=1459558578&hash=item51fd14b4ce:m:mBDsRklFRd-B81dprRr9rNQ

modell 12 - 108 x 40 x 45 cm is a decent size, and even foldable.The bigger the better.

 

I would use a little bit bedding from the chicken coop, perhaps a broken egg, and something like a chicken neck, or a sardine. Always anchor the trap (e.g. with large tent pegs) so they can't push it around, and train to setup the trap before you place it. 

[Rascalmyshadow]

Awsome thanks il show it to my husband when he gets home.

[karen15]

My experience with foxes and traps is get a good chook pen  instead. Put a roof on your pen - can be chicken wire. Then wire on the ground for 2 foot inside the fence, copper logs and fill. Never lost a chook after we did that. Pen had a large tree in the middle and it wasn't hard to put the roof on.

[PossumCorner]

But it's back to the toolbox or belts and braces - the more ways you have to keep them safe the better.  Traps would work for me because foxes around are confident and cheeky, some places they are suspicious and wary.  Some good traps are a bit dearer, $150-200.  Where (approx.). are you in Vic Rascal? - "Its a Trap" in Kyneton were great, they have closed the shopfront but Robyn still supplies by mail order, I think.  I just left her a voicemail so will let you know what the system is now after she calls.  (Highly recommend).  If you search online tonight look up itsatrap Kyneton.

 

Netting with large trees is tricky but do-able - as normal at around 6 ft high on posts, but work a netting inverted cone around the trunk without trauma to the tree.  An orchard near us nets quite large trees - foxes climb the fruit trees and can eat a crop of cherries or apricots.  

 

Oh cats and hot wires - same with your dogs and chooks, they'll generally only need the one hit to keep them off it, no harm done, just a helluva fright.  Some egg producers with free range paddocks use them, just one wire at normal fence top.  The chooks only try to fly over once and give the idea away.

[Boronia]

this works with crows

http://www.crowaway.com.au/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4vjQqPuL2gIVjAYqCh3cLAXjEAAYASAAEgK1KfD_BwE

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Boronia

[W T]

26 minutes ago, PossumCorner said:

Oh cats and hot wires - same with your dogs and chooks, they'll generally only need the one hit to keep them off it, no harm done, just a helluva fright.  Some egg producers with free range paddocks use them, just one wire at normal fence top.  The chooks only try to fly over once and give the idea away.

it is not so easy: no earth no shock. That's also the problem with the foxes: if this one wire is too low, they just jump over it, to high and they try to sneak under it. When they jump and touch the wire, and have no contact with the ground, nothing happens. Hence the electric fence design for fox safe enclosures requires a special netting with more wires (multiple hot and multiple earth wires) and that is why they are pretty expensive, especially if you have to cover a wider area. And they can kill smaller birds that accidently touch hot and earth at the same time. They can happily sit on a hot wire as long as they don't touch the earth (which is pretty much impossible with a single hot wire design), but because of the narrow gap between hot and earth wires they might find themselves on an electrical chair.

[PossumCorner]

Good Boronia - I'd thought they were just a gimmick like the anti cockroach or mouse or rat plug-in scammy things.

[W T]

a Justin Biber CD might give you the same results  https://thydzik.com/review-of-crow-away-it-doesnt-work/