breed standards . 'deformed' Brachy breeds

[persephone]

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/thefeed/article/2018/02/15/purebred-crisis?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sbsnews-thefeed+(SBS+News+-+The+Feed)%3F%3F

The Purebred Crisis: How dogs are being deformed in the name of fashion.

[Roova]

Should be called 'The poorly bred crisis'. 

 

I think we all know it's not just purebreds being bred with health issues. 

[Dogsfevr]

Just now, Roova said:

Should be called 'The poorly bred crisis'. 

 

I think we all know it's not just purebreds being bred with health issues. 

Exactly 

[sandgrubber]

9 hours ago, Dogsfevr said:

Exactly 

 

9 hours ago, Roova said:

Should be called 'The poorly bred crisis'. 

 

I think we all know it's not just purebreds being bred with health issues. 

Beg to differ.  Breeding FOR unhealthy traits, such as very very short muzzles or excessive coat length and thickness, is rare outside purebred circles.  Also, bottlenecks that have resulted in low genetic diversity, eg in the Doberman or flatcoat retriever, only happens with purebreds.

[asal]

unfortunately the show scene leads the way in 'improving' on what they have, the standard for the Persian cat had the sentence "pleasant expression" deleted from the standard to permit the new improved no muzzle gargoyles that had began to appear to win over the few left with a muzzle and a pleasant expression.as for the lovely cats my uncle used to breed in 1948, they actually had a face but they were soon regulated to being called "chocolate box persians" as the only place you could find them by the 60's was photos on chocolate boxes and so it goes

 

the original can still be spotted occasionally but only in the dreaded backyard

 

never at a show unless its a pet show for moggies

Edited February 20, 2018 by asal

[sandgrubber]

Btw, it's misleading to call it a purebred crisis.  Some breeds have not been bred for extreme traits remain quite healthy.

[RuralPug]

2 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

 

Beg to differ.  Breeding FOR unhealthy traits, such as very very short muzzles or excessive coat length and thickness, is rare outside purebred circles.  Also, bottlenecks that have resulted in low genetic diversity, eg in the Doberman or flatcoat retriever, only happens with purebreds.

Many of the so called designer dogs (which are most definitely NOT purebred) are being bred with total disregard to health and temperament. Unfortunately, this is not rare at all/

 

[Pjrt]

People are missing the point here. The story is about recognised pure breeds bred within the guidelines of    recognised written breed standards. These breeders need to step back and take a critical look at the way breeding to form as per the written stand, affects the dogs they breed. Dare I say it, I think judges could help steer this ship in a better direction by awarding the more moderate and functional forms. Dogs should not be bred towards ‘current trends’ In the show ring. 

 

Of course mixed breeds are majority bred with little regard to written standards, because they are not bred to written standards

ETA.... but the purebred world then decries any effort breeders of certain types might make to become recognised breeds with written standards.hypoctical. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by mingaling

[Loving my Oldies]

When you see dogs who can hardly walk being awarded BIS from places like Crufts, you know there is something very very wrong and, frankly, cruel and criminal.  You can’t tell me that “brown paper bags” aren’t being passed under the counter.    

[persephone]

I don't care what the title is : 
It is cruel . Denying animals freedom to take in AIR , to RUN, to GIVE BIRTH  naturally ...

Most folks would  condemn battery hen farms & sow cages . Merle:Merle matings. prong collars ..oh yes , Sshhh..... electronic collars ....
Why not this , where an animal has absolutely no chance of escaping its body ?  ( yes, there is surgery , I know ....) 
Why aren't people shouting long & loud ? 
I'm confused & saddened ...   

[gillybob]

What it also needs is for buyers to say no I want a dog that can do all the things any dog is able to do.

I look at the German Shepard and ask myself what are they doing with that beautiful breed.

There is also a problem there as well, with their sloping backs they don't look able to d what they were originally to do.

I worked with a working shepard as a herder of cattle, he was amazing.

[persephone]

this popped up om my newsfeed earlier today ... 

https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/100-years-of-breed-improvement/

with images like this : 

[Two Best Dogs!]

I would dearly love a pug one day. As it is, I would not buy any pug except as a cross. The current ones, how their faces, wrinkles and tight tails are... for all their endearing personalities I can not buy that. I watched Westminster. That dogs (named redacted) wrinkle over its nose was practically bigger than the length of its muzzle. At least not obscuring it but there's short and there's....  if a spaniel was born like that, it'd be deformed. Because it's an imagining of the standard, it's Westminster best in group. 

 

When articles like this pop up and then the reactions on a purebred dog forum, as a wannabe one day purchaser I'd much rather see people at least acknowledging and discussing fixes rather than "oh but look over there at the designer breeds and mixed breeds they're bad too". I have eyes. They're rarely that bad and even less on purpose except where we stray into byb purebred territory (the lines between dodgy and reputable are hard to tell. I very nearly bought a twice generation half sibling mating puppy but thankfully was warned off. Shows. Registered. Even does the odd sport. Terrifying to think for close I got to that potential generic disaster). 

 

pure breeders are about the improvement of their respective pure breeds. Perhaps if the topic was "responsible health breeding crisis in dogs" be good for discussions on how health checks for cross breeding should be more of a norm, that people should breed thoughtfully regardless of pure bred or cross bred. 

 

But if the topic is specifically raised about the pure bred crisis, better to focus on that. 

 

Other wise it's a bit like seeing a topic about the DCM crisis in Doberman, but the people discussing it go "German shepherds have health issues too" and go in circles on that. 

 

Can be concerned about both, but changing the topic in a themed discussion looks more like putting head in the sand than discussing potential improvements. Then someone comes along and will be "look Doberman breeders don't care about DCM, they always redirect to other breeds". 

 

Hope my gist gets across 

[persephone]

@Thistle the dog. yes. I honestly can not understand  how the problems have gotten so bad

[Maddy]

38 minutes ago, Thistle the dog said:

I would dearly love a pug one day. As it is, I would not buy any pug except as a cross. The current ones, how their faces, wrinkles and tight tails are... for all their endearing personalities I can not buy that. I watched Westminster. That dogs (named redacted) wrinkle over its nose was practically bigger than the length of its muzzle. At least not obscuring it but there's short and there's....  if a spaniel was born like that, it'd be deformed. Because it's an imagining of the standard, it's Westminster best in group. 

 

When articles like this pop up and then the reactions on a purebred dog forum, as a wannabe one day purchaser I'd much rather see people at least acknowledging and discussing fixes rather than "oh but look over there at the designer breeds and mixed breeds they're bad too". I have eyes. They're rarely that bad and even less on purpose except where we stray into byb purebred territory (the lines between dodgy and reputable are hard to tell. I very nearly bought a twice generation half sibling mating puppy but thankfully was warned off. Shows. Registered. Even does the odd sport. Terrifying to think for close I got to that potential generic disaster). 

 

pure breeders are about the improvement of their respective pure breeds. Perhaps if the topic was "responsible health breeding crisis in dogs" be good for discussions on how health checks for cross breeding should be more of a norm, that people should breed thoughtfully regardless of pure bred or cross bred. 

 

But if the topic is specifically raised about the pure bred crisis, better to focus on that. 

 

Other wise it's a bit like seeing a topic about the DCM crisis in Doberman, but the people discussing it go "German shepherds have health issues too" and go in circles on that. 

 

Can be concerned about both, but changing the topic in a themed discussion looks more like putting head in the sand than discussing potential improvements. Then someone comes along and will be "look Doberman breeders don't care about DCM, they always redirect to other breeds". 

 

Hope my gist gets across 

All of this.

Deflecting criticism with "But those BYB dogs over there aren't even health tested" is not an argument. I've seen plenty of wonky crossbreds but equally, I've seen registered, purebred dogs that looked like they have no earthly purpose continuing to exist; with legs like a komodo dragon, a muzzle so short that it is almost concave, sucking in gasped lungfuls of air in their painful efforts to continue existing. Who could argue that any of that is good for the dog? If your dog must suffer for its breed to exist, perhaps that's nature's way of saying.. maybe don't?

 

Maybe I notice this more keenly because I have dogs designed to run- dogs that have huge, open nostrils and long muzzles to enjoy all that air with- but watching the average brachy dog run.. it's sad. Sometimes, it's distressing. No dog should be gasping for breath, just from walking.

I'm absolutely not against purebred dogs (I own them and I'd be reluctant to own a crossbred), but I can't agree with people breeding dogs that will suffer as a result of their own horrible conformation.

[sandgrubber]

9 hours ago, RuralPug said:

Many of the so called designer dogs (which are most definitely NOT purebred) are being bred with total disregard to health and temperament. Unfortunately, this is not rare at all/

 

Disregard of health in DDd is bad, but intentionally breeding for traits that are antithetical to health ...as in the bulldogs shown in the OP video...is worse. 

And the genetic diseases that plague some genetically undiverse breeds are tragic, and relatively uncommon where gene pool aren't restricted, and haven't been further narrowed by historical events and/or the popular sire syndrome.

[asal]

13 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

 

Beg to differ.  Breeding FOR unhealthy traits, such as very very short muzzles or excessive coat length and thickness, is rare outside purebred circles.  Also, bottlenecks that have resulted in low genetic diversity, eg in the Doberman or flatcoat retriever, only happens with purebreds.

so you missed seeing Rob Zammit with a cute little designer shih tzu x maltese x ?  with malacludded bite, lulating patellas, navel and groin hernias, entropian and I think? blocked tear ducts.

 

all the hybrid health issues of all three breeds rolled into one little cute vets high income earner

Edited February 21, 2018 by asal

[Maddy]

12 minutes ago, asal said:

so you missed seeing Rob Zammit with a cute little designer shih tzu x maltese x ?  with malacludded bite, lulating patellas, navel and groin hernias, entropian and I think? blocked tear ducts.

 

all the hybrid health issues of all three breeds rolled into one little cute vets high income earner

No one is saying DDs aren't a problem. This is exactly the sort of derailing of arguments that people are talking about. Crossbreeding of dogs for money is bad, no one here is arguing otherwise. But they have nothing to do with breed standards that lead to seriously compromised dogs. Nothing. End of story.

[asal]

2 minutes ago, Maddy said:

No one is saying DDs aren't a problem. This is exactly the sort of derailing of arguments that people are talking about. Crossbreeding of dogs for money is bad, no one here is arguing otherwise. But they have nothing to do with breed standards that lead to seriously compromised dogs. Nothing. End of story.

except the compromised purebreds be they backyard bred or pedigree bred when crossed can combine  instead .

 

I refused to walk to the exaggerated drum, I selected and bred for soundness from day one,  To do so is to invite persecution by those who believe extreme "improvement" is the hall mark of ethical.

it was a fellow member of my breed club who would play with my dog at the meetings who made that fateful call to enable the rspca to arrive and take him.  She bred for exaggeration and compromised reproductive traits but she showed, so when you show your "ethical" and thus then feel empowered to eliminate any who do not aspire to her version of ethical.

so many are busy destroying all who don't march to their drum from within.

 

 

how often do we hear, a member cannot be "ethical" if they do not show?

Don't show, you will get the knocks on the door,  until the embarrassment of the badged vehicle at the gate has  the neighbours as well deciding, "where there's smoke there's fire," causes the target to resign, or if the reporter is lucky the target has a dog that day with something that will make the knocker money in court,  whatever.

 

gets rid of those who do want to breed sound middle of the road purebreds very effectively

[Two Best Dogs!]

I've no idea what you're going on about asal. Edit Maddy has elaborated from me. I'm very sorry your experience has happened. 

 

13 hours ago, Maddy said:

Maybe I notice this more keenly because I have dogs designed to run- dogs that have huge, open nostrils and long muzzles to enjoy all that air with- but watching the average brachy dog run.. it's sad. Sometimes, it's distressing. No dog should be gasping for breath, just from walking.

I'm absolutely not against purebred dogs (I own them and I'd be reluctant to own a crossbred), but I can't agree with people breeding dogs that will suffer as a result of their own horrible conformation.

Yes, it's a dog before it's a pug. It should be able to do basic dog things.

 

This research came out recently, on the gait in pugs and it concerns me to. Yes to having the breed standards of defining a pug as pug, but no to those traits being interpreted to such an alteration of the dog that they are in pain or incapable of enjoying life comfortably :'( 

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/182/6/167

 

(free to access article)

 

Quote

The objective of this prospective study was to determine the prevalence of gait abnormalities in a cohort of Swedish pugs by using an owner-based questionnaire targeting signs of gait abnormality and video footage showing the dog’s gait. This study also evaluated associated conditions of abnormal gait, including other health disorders prevalent in the breed. Five hundred and fifty (550) pugs registered in the Swedish Kennel Club, of one, five and eight years of age, in 2015 and 2016, were included in the study. Gait abnormalities were reported in 30.7 per cent of the responses. In the majority of cases, the character of the described gait indicated a neurological cause for the gait abnormality. An association was observed between abnormal gait and age, with gait abnormalities being significantly more common in older pugs (P=0.004). An association was also found between abnormal gait and dyspnoea, with dyspnoea being significantly more common in pugs with gait abnormalities (P<0.0001). This study demonstrated that the prevalence of gait abnormalities was high in the Swedish pug breed and increased with age. Future studies on the mechanisms behind these gait abnormalities are warranted.

There are some pugs out there doing sports (there's a particular little fly ball star who is a DELIGHT!), and while it's unrealistic to expect every pug to be running sports (especially at current) there should be a push towards ensuring they CAN be active safely. Open nares to breath for both activity and on hot days, a muzzle not so long for palates, space for the brain, eyes not so protruding as to suffer corneas and other assorted injuries, wrinkles not to be so excessive as to be prone to infection, a tail should not be essentially growing into the skin. It should be able to sit with proper body posture, trot neatly and be as healthy as humanly possible (shit luck excluded of course). They don't need to be running marathons or hunting down rabbits, but they shouldn't suffer so much in the heat, should be able to run and play.

 

This shouldn't be a controversial thing to discuss, it helps build them towards a healthy pain free life where they can enjoy more and do more. Let them keep up with their family!

 

I know there are some breeders working towards it, but so far it seems overall very few breeders in a very popular breed are working to improve their health, if the kind of dog we see in westminster is the one put in front of the public and the representative of the breed (that's on the judges who chose it to get there, then the one who decided it was best in group. But this is also what the public will then see, this is what is being shown to the world as the best pug).

 

Dismay.

 

*edit. Note I'm using pugs as example because I genuinely like the little buggers and track new research but same thoughts apply to Boston terriers, bulldogs, King Charles spaniels, extreme small variations of already small dogs etc etc

Edited February 21, 2018 by Thistle the dog