Tell me about Cancer

[westiemum]

5 hours ago, Dame Danny's Darling said:

@westiemum This is the little couple.  Quite a few medical issues, though.

 

https://www.petrescue.com.au/listings/580373

 

Yep I saw them DD.  Bit annoyed actually as the listing makes it seem that having them would be really onerous - and it wouldn't be.  To start with you'd need to get on top of things - but they would be easy peasy in the long run.  If Sarah was younger and I wasn't in a rental I'd have them in a heartbeat.  

[Loving my Oldies]

1 hour ago, westiemum said:

Yep I saw them DD.  Bit annoyed actually as the listing makes it seem that having them would be really onerous - and it wouldn't be.  To start with you'd need to get on top of things - but they would be easy peasy in the long run.  If Sarah was younger and I wasn't in a rental I'd have them in a heartbeat.  

Well, I will pass on your comments to a friend of mine in Melbourne who is looking to adopt a pair and she is looking at them.   

[Little Gifts]

We had a bad experience not too long ago with our 12 year old husky/shep cross girl. We went in for weight loss and reduced mobility - all normalish stuff with an older dog but we wanted to stay on top of it. It was cancer and we were referred to a specialist centre and went there the same week. Within only 5 days of having the specialist go through all the bloods, xrays and ultrasounds they took that day she was gone. Only 3 days on her new meds. We were like a 2 person Spanish Inquisition before deciding on our course of treatment (we had 3 options). We asked many, many questions about what to look for regarding deterioration and the meds not having a positive effect. Some of the technical stuff is lost from my memory given how quickly this all happened but our girl had cancer in her anal glands and some spots in other organs. Due to age we went for meds (can't remember their name) but were offered surgical options too and at no time were we advised treatment was not an option or that things had progressed too far. On day 3 of starting the meds she got diarrhea (can never spell that word). We thought it was the meds. We adjusted her diet and watched her. The next day it was no better and she wanted to eat but wouldn't. We went to our vet. He checked her out and said the tumour in her anal glands was blocking her bowel and things inside were already starting to break down. We had no alternative but to pts then and there. We couldn't even take her home for one last night of spoiling - it was too bad. We are still shocked and angry. She must've been in so much pain. I still can't fathom how less than a week earlier we were lead to believe a very different scenario and were not given any advice about what symptoms she might exhibit that were critical despite us asking those specific questions repeatedly. I wanted to go back and see the specialists but my sister couldn't do it so it has been hard to put the issue to rest. 

 

So sadly I don't have a happy experience for you but I know you like honestly. My advice is to not put anything down to old age or change in diet or anything usual like we did. Dogs can't talk so have limited ways of telling us something is wrong inside. Changes to eating, poop and mobility could all mean something so keep on top of them (I know you will). Ask questions and don't care how many questions or how many times you ask them (I know you will do that too!). We can't predict exactly when it is their time but we can keep them comfortable and not let it go too far. When it is time send Jeune off with love rather than regrets.

[Loving my Oldies]

Thanks for sharing your really sad experience, LG.  Really makes me angry that some specialists are like that (for both humans and animals).  You would be expecting to have a little longer with your girl  .  Vets are people after all and cover the wide range of characters, good and bad, but we do expect them to be ethical and tell us when there is nothing to do except keep them comfortable and pain free.  

 

Luckily my vets are what we would all like in a vet (except there is one woman in the hospital to whom I would not take a dead dog - she is truly horrible) and were totally in agreement that we should only do meds and nothing invasive or even intrusive testing.  I think the position of the tumour would make intervention near impossible on even a young dog.   I doubt whether five minutes go buy without my checking on her.  She really took exception to my starting this thread by eating yet another huge dinner last night, and leapt and circled with delight when we went downstairs for the first time this morning.     And did an encore performance when the leads came out.   

Edited January 20, 2018 by Dame Danny's Darling

[Loving my Oldies]

20 hours ago, westiemum said:

Yep I saw them DD.  Bit annoyed actually as the listing makes it seem that having them would be really onerous - and it wouldn't be.  To start with you'd need to get on top of things - but they would be easy peasy in the long run.  If Sarah was younger and I wasn't in a rental I'd have them in a heartbeat.  

I sent your response to my friend and she is still pursuing this and feels exactly as you do.  She is having the same experience as many have shared on DOL ..... no responses from rescue groups to whom she is sending expressions of interest.  She is well aware that rescuers are volunteers, but she isn’t getting responses from most of them.  

 

[Little Gifts]

DDD our regular vets are amazing (they picked up the cancer) and by all accounts the specialist centre we went to is amazing, as is the particular specialist vet who worked with us. But when you are given a range of treatment options and you ask repeatedly if they are realistic for a dog of that age and health you assume the tests indicate they are. And when you ask for signs of deterioration re an anal gland tumour and straining to toilet or diarrhea are not mentioned then you assume it is not the kind of tumour that will grow quickly and block a bowel. Same with the other organs - I get the sense that things were far worse inside than we were told for things to change so quickly. So why not just say the extent is unclear? Our last few days would've been much different with our girl had we known the real situation. Based on the report from the specialist our own vet was very shocked too. How did they get it so wrong? I wonder if vets have a review process in situations like that to see what learnings can come from dogs who pass away within short time frames from assessment and starting a treatment plan?

 

Maybe with Jeune she has had discomfort for a while and now with treatment she is feeling like a new dog, hence her new eating and exercise habits? I know you will watch her but just don't naturally excuse things to her age is all I can advise. This is the part of them getting older that I hate.

[DogsAndTheMob]

I’m not a vet or a doctor, but I actually wouldn’t be as pessimistic as some posters. The fact that she has had the tumour for 18 months without significant symptoms suggests that it is not a horribly aggressive cancer. Doctors sometimes opt to simply manage slow-growing tumours in their human patients, because they can live with the cancer for the rest of their natural life span.

 

My husky had a tumour removed from the back of her palate when she was about nine years old. She lived for another three years without symptoms - a happy, lively dog. Her final decline may have been due to the cancer but I’m not sure because the initial collapse was misdiagnosed by the vet, who told me she had pulled a muscle in her leg. (I was adamant that that wasn’t the case, but the vet wouldn’t listen.) When she became comatose five days later, we opted for euthanasia.

 

A lot of the health issues you describe are those I have seen in my older dogs. In my experience, old dogs tend to look thin in the hindquarters because they lose muscle tone in old age. It’s called sarcopenia and it’s caused partially by reduced activity and partially by an natural die-off in the nerves sending messages to the muscle fibres. Obviously, 17 is a very old dog, but small dogs do occasionally live into their twenties . If she’s alert and happy, then your vet should be able to help you to make her comfortable and pain-free, and give her a good quality of life. Once that’s not possible, it will be time for euthanasia.

 

Good luck, and all my best wishes.

 

 

 

[Kazm]

15 hours ago, Little Gifts said:

DDD our regular vets are amazing (they picked up the cancer) and by all accounts the specialist centre we went to is amazing, as is the particular specialist vet who worked with us. But when you are given a range of treatment options and you ask repeatedly if they are realistic for a dog of that age and health you assume the tests indicate they are. And when you ask for signs of deterioration re an anal gland tumour and straining to toilet or diarrhea are not mentioned then you assume it is not the kind of tumour that will grow quickly and block a bowel. Same with the other organs - I get the sense that things were far worse inside than we were told for things to change so quickly. So why not just say the extent is unclear? Our last few days would've been much different with our girl had we known the real situation. Based on the report from the specialist our own vet was very shocked too. How did they get it so wrong? I wonder if vets have a review process in situations like that to see what learnings can come from dogs who pass away within short time frames from assessment and starting a treatment plan?

 

Maybe with Jeune she has had discomfort for a while and now with treatment she is feeling like a new dog, hence her new eating and exercise habits? I know you will watch her but just don't naturally excuse things to her age is all I can advise. This is the part of them getting older that I hate.

Your experience sounds horrible. Most cancer stories are I guess but at least our experience went the opposite of yours. We were told by a very nice specialist vet that Zena had barely a month to live. No treatment was going to help her type of cancer. And she just kept going. For 2 months. I know that doesn’t sound very long but when you are told less any extra time feels like a bonus. And even though I had to hand feed her she was mostly her normal happy self. Painkillers obviously helped. 

[Loving my Oldies]

2 hours ago, DogsAndTheMob said:

I’m not a vet or a doctor, but I actually wouldn’t be as pessimistic as some posters.

 

Good luck, and all my best wishes.

 

 

 

Thank you @DogsAndTheMob.  Jeune has always been a quiet, self-contained little dog and so extremely hard to read in terms of how she is feeling.  I tend to go along with what you have said and since the tumour was found, she has seen the vet on three occasions so she is being carefully monitored by them and by me.  I have had only little breeds and most of them have lived into old age despite all of them coming from pounds and already quite compromised healthwise.  

 

 

[kayla1]

It's hard with older dogs. 

 

I agree that it seems to be a slow growing tumour. When she had her original tests, was a biopsy done to confirm the tumour was cancerous? I mention it because you cannot tell by look and feel whether a tumour is cancerous or not - it can only be confirmed through biopsy. If so, do you know the type of cancer confirmed by the biopsy? That may give you an idea of how it will progress. With my dogs, one had a soft tissue sarcoma and another mast cell tumours, and treatment has meant they are still here today and have maintained excellent quality of life. However, my dogs are younger than Jeune - if they had been older at the time of diagnosis then I would have ruled out some of those treatments. 

 

Good luck with your beautiful girl. 

 

 

[PossumCorner]

On ‎19‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 1:06 PM, Dame Danny's Darling said:

.... This is the little couple.  Quite a few medical issues, though. ....

 

The site mentioned that they would not re-home them outside of Adelaide or adjacent SA-only areas.  Is this usually quite rigid, or are they flexible once in a while?

[Boronia]

7 hours ago, PossumCorner said:

The site mentioned that they would not re-home them outside of Adelaide or adjacent SA-only areas.  Is this usually quite rigid, or are they flexible once in a while?

I would have thought that a comfy car trip with the little one's in harnesses, on the back seat, lying on their soft pillows, with frequent pit-stops would not be an issue for dogs travelling interstate.

When it all boils down it's still a Ride In The Car

and most dogs love their rides

[Loving my Oldies]

1 hour ago, Boronia said:

I would have thought that a comfy car trip with the little one's in harnesses, on the back seat, lying on their soft pillows, with frequent pit-stops would not be an issue for dogs travelling interstate.

When it all boils down it's still a Ride In The Car

and most dogs love their rides

Exactly.  My friend in Melbourne has now applied for several dogs (most of them pairs which would not be easy to rehome) and despite following up applications with emails and sometimes phones calls, she has received one response.  When an application is made via Petrescue there is an option to report to Petrescue if nothing heard from a rescue group within seven days (or is it five??? - can’t remember, I’ll have to go back to look).  My friend has done that and hasn’t even had a reply from Petrescue.   The way the applications are set up, the rescue group has only to click on the email address to send a response.  Yes, my friend knows they are all volunteers but some of her applications and f/up emails are over three weeks old.  

[dogbesotted]

oooh isnt she just oh so precious!!! Hope you both have many many happy times together. 

My dear Dennys Dog was quite old when he passed ( a Maremma aged 16 ) and in the last few years of his life we had quite a few serious scares... but he always rallied and I was beginning to think that finally I had my immortal dog.  I made a list of the things he enjoyed..and when they no longer peeked his interest I knew that the end was coming... 

love to you both.

[stellnme]

I guess it is always the quality of life that I look out for.  Stella's quality of life (at 17) was not there anymore, and she was beginning to suffer, so that's my benchmark.  You know your dogs very well, DDD, and you will know when that happens.  Jeune is a sweetheart and from reading about her for many years, I know you have given her the best life.  Watch her carefully for changes, cuddle and love her every day, and be guided by the vet who knows her.  I hope you both enjoy more time together.

[Loving my Oldies]

3 hours ago, stellnme said:

I guess it is always the quality of life that I look out for.  Stella's quality of life (at 17) was not there anymore, and she was beginning to suffer, so that's my benchmark.  You know your dogs very well, DDD, and you will know when that happens.  Jeune is a sweetheart and from reading about her for many years, I know you have given her the best life.  Watch her carefully for changes, cuddle and love her every day, and be guided by the vet who knows her.  I hope you both enjoy more time together.

That sure is happening .  The meds she is on to slow the growth of the tumour also makes dogs feel better.  (I checked with the vet when I took Mezza yesterday.)  She is eating well (for her that is   ), she sleeps the night through on my bed, spends a lot of the day on the couch, enjoys our very slow ambles, goes up and down the stairs without difficulty,  happily potters around outside when she goes down to toilet, so I think you could say her quality of life is enviable for a dog of her years LOL.