vet suggested kibble not raw?

[persephone]

Nice soft basket muzzle properly fitted for walks  Stops garbage disposal ! 

[juice]

I do have a basket muzzle , might try it. 

I don’t give rawhide or anything like that as she swallows stuff whole , she does have dogchocs which she gets one for going to her crate when she comes in . 

She walks like a beagle with her nose to the ground and so I have to walk looking at the floor too , berries on driveways is another favorite grab! 

[persephone]

Hamlet wore a basket muzzle for months after his foreign body scare ... it just became automatic ..no walk until "helmet" was put on (and a treat pushed thru ) 

[juice]

People will run away even faster now ! 

[persephone]

35 minutes ago, juice said:

People will run away even faster now ! 

I didn't have that problem out bush ..but yes , I guess ! maybe paint it pink or purple ?  ..and the  muzzle   :P 

[RuralPug]

1 hour ago, juice said:

People will run away even faster now ! 

LOL I thought of that. Bull terriers are usually the biggest softies out with people, but the look of any bull breed frightens some, and yes, seeing a bully with a muzzle will make them jump to conclusions. You can't help that, maybe you will be better off if people cross the road when walking their annoying little fluffies that want to prove themselves to bigger dogs!

[Scrappi&Monty]

(Sorry, off topic but you reminded me.)

Took Scrappi & Monty to the Hydrobaths at the pet shop, and when we were leaving the shop, a lady saw Scrappi (corgi x terrier) and goes “Awww so cute!” Then sees Mo, and instantly goes “whoa no big dog, it’s gonna kill me!” 

WTF? He was being extra love-buggy and sweet too! He’s a 21kg staffy, hardly big!  

 

[juice]

i already get people cross the road as soon as they see us, its funny, especially if i need to cross too, then they have to cross again!

Last time i took her o the petshop for a bath there were 2 big oodles in the cubicle next to us, one just flew at her through the glass, owner just gave me a disgusted look as if it was our fault, cheeky cow! Luckily the girls in the store love her and come and fuss over her.

[alpha bet]

Juice, as an idea to think over.... I run a boarding kennel so get loads of different dogs and have seen many things over the years. Had a few occasions where I have had bully breeds who have come in and seen them really get a bit lacklustre and unsteady - each time it has turned out that dog had a blockage... one had part of a ball stuck and had to have an op to remove.  The other two had eaten something different... one had eaten a rabbit just prior to coming and about 4 days after I took to the vet as we thought she was off colour and we kept watching and saw she was straining to poo... Vet gave her stuff to help her pass the rabbit.... The final one had been given chicken carcass... the bone and compacted in her gut and caused inflammation in the gut.

 

In the past I had a GSD pup who ended up with telescope bowel and some of the bowel removed. Over the years we found he could not process bone... he tended to grind it down and then it would compact in his bowel... We learnt the signs and as soon as I realised he had compacted I would give him a big does of oil and water in his dinner or even squirted down his throat with a horse injection... I'm always keeping an eye on the dogs poo.... also their habits...

 

Might be worth thinking about. 

[DesertDobes]

I just wanted to share my experience as it sounds similar- my female dobe is a high level garbage guts and she was vomiting bile up for a few weeks but seemed well and happy otherwise so I didn't think too much of it. Then one night she started vomiting lots and also having heaps of bloody and runny poos.

 

So of we rush to vets in the middle of the night, they put her on fluids, sedated her, did an xray on her tummy and found a big old knob of bone stuck in there. Turns out she had found an old bit of beef marrow bone somewhere and because it was summer, the bone was essentially cooked in the sun, therefore making it un-digestable for her.

 

She eventually threw up the bone, just when she was about to have surgery to remove it. It was very smooth on the edges like it had been rolling around in her stomach for a while! Also she was chronically car sick for the first two years of her life but after that incident she never threw up in the car again! 

 

 

[PANDI-GIRL]

@juice  How is   Zelda   now  health wise  with her food & tummy issues 

 

I hope you found something that helps her feel better 

[juice]

Thanks for checking on us . 

I decided to give the kibble a go , I tried Proplan sensitive first , her coat went really coarse and she shed worse than my dally did and poop not firm , so after the bag had gone and no improvement I have been using the Costco fish and potatoe, coat is shiny , back to normal shedding , no wind or vomiting . So just going to accept she does better on kibble . I have tried a chicken carcass twice too , but on both occasions she was fine till about a third was left when she swallowed it whole , vomited it back up and did it again , and both times was flat and unsettled after , gave her a Zantac last time . So haven’t risked another carcass , and so far every bone I have given her she breaks bits off , even the round but off a marrowbone and nearly choked ! She loves the kibble actually , I give a biscuit for brekky and sardines or egg once a week . 

Edited February 24, 2018 by juice

[PANDI-GIRL]

What good news the  Costco fish & potato is helping  Zelda  feel better 

does she eat  2 meals a day now ,  any bile vomits ?

[juice]

she has always just had a biscuit for brekky, or sardines.

no bile so far.

 

[BullBreedBoy]

Hello Juice,

 

Reading through the thread it sounds like you may have an issue with her gastric acidity.  I would not conclude that your girl ‘just does better on kibble’.  Assuming she does not have any underlying genetic issues or obstructions I think the combination of changing between cooked and raw foods coupled with all the medications that she has been given has probably led to her stomach ph increasing.

 

The importance of gastric acidity to effective digestion of raw meat, bone matter, and vegetable matter seems to be overlooked by many advocates of raw diets.

 

I have owned and bred Bull Terriers for 20+ years and have been feeding exclusively raw for 10 of those.  There’s no doubt that Bully’s do better, much better,  on raw.  You just need to get their  gastric acidity right, and then they will easily digest bones with minimal risk.  I believe (based off the info you have posted) that you could potentially get back to feeding a fully raw diet including bones.

 

Bruce Symes covers this subject area well in the below blog:

 

https://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/digesting-bones-gastric-acidity-salmonella-dogs-cats/

 

Please feel free to PM me if you want any further info.

[juice]

Thankyou for that, i did email him about the issue and got no response.

Do you think her PH will have leveled now she is off meds or is there something i should be doing to level it?

I'm almost at the end of this big bag of kibble so need to decide wether to try going back to roo and VANS. I have to say as a single mum its way cheaper feeding this than the Roo, but chicken mince is way fatty, i have never tried her with it but my previous bully had bouts of pancreatitis hence the change to Roo.

She also eats the kibble way slower , the raw is gone before i have left the room!

I have also never found a bone that is safe to give her.

[BullBreedBoy]

5 hours ago, juice said:

Thankyou for that, i did email him about the issue and got no response.

Do you think her PH will have leveled now she is off meds or is there something i should be doing to level it?

 

It's impossible to say from here, but my  thoughts would be no, it will not be down to an appropriate level (ph: 2) whilst you are feeding predominantly kibble.   FWIW I would advise the following:

 

1)  Go to two meals a day if you are not there already.   If you need guidance on qty then I would start with 1% of body weight for each meal and go from there based off condition.

 

2)  Use the remaining kibble for one of the meals and then stop feeding kibble completely.

 

3)  Purchase some commercially available BARF patties and once the kibble is used up split between two meals and feed nothing else for a month.  The BARF I recommend is Leading Raw if you can source it.  This is made in Australia by Big Dog, and several of our families feed this exclusively with outstanding results.  I myself always have some in the freezer for use when I am running low on my usual home made raw mixture, or just to add some variety.  The reason I recommend this is so that you have a good stable, raw food source that you know is balanced and providing all her nutritional needs.

 

4) After the month is up, start to swing her back to one meal a day by gradually reducing the volume of food fed in the morning and increasing the volume in the evening.  Do this over a couple of weeks.  By now you could be confident that she is used to eating one meal a day (which I believe is the best model for overall health and vitality), and that her gastric acidity is back to wear it should be.  At this stage you can move back to VANS or any other balanced raw feeding product of your choice.

 

5)  Commence adding some small bones into the mix.  I would start with whole chicken wings or drumsticks  once a week under supervision and then build up.  My dogs LOVE lamb shanks, but I mix it up and they have roo tails, beef neck, beef ribs, rabbit hindquarter and others.  What I do is feed them 2-3 raw meaty bones per week and on at least one day a week that is all they have.  Again the most likely cause of your girl vomiting up bone matter is gastric acidity and you are very likely to find once you get her gut PH down she will stop vomiting bone matter back up.  What's really important with bones is choosing the right size of bone for your dog, and staying away from very hard load bearing bones from large animals.

 

Please note all of this advice assumes that there is not another underlying condition which I assume you have already eliminated through your vet.  Unfortunately, the idea that some (otherwise healthy) dogs just can't handle bones is spread around by folks that average dog owners view as experts such as vets and breeders.  I believe raw meaty bones form an essential part of the overall diet of dogs and should always be fed unless there is true health reason not to.   The myth that chewing up kibble is a suitable alternative for dental health is often also spread around and it simply couldn't be further from the truth.

 

I do hope that all makes sense and is helpful, have done my best to spell it out for you, however if you want to discuss further then let me know.  This is the advice I would give to one of my families if in the same situation.   Bully's are amazing companions to have in your life and once you get their diet right the difference it makes to their overall vitality and enjoyment of life never ceases to amaze.

 

PS:  One final tip if you can do it, is take her for a good walk/run or similar exercise in the hour before you feed her.   

 

PPS:  Here is a link to a Webinar that Bruce Symes did a few years ago where he covered off in some detail the mechanics of feeding raw bones, and the importance of gastric acidity.  Understand he didn't reply to your email but he is truly an authority on this subject in my view.  The quality is a bit sketchy but if you overlook that there's a heap of fantastic info and myth busting in it.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by BullBreedBoy
Adding PS.

[juice]

Thank you for that . Barf is rather pricey , according to chart and her weight  2.8 patties a day and you only get 12 in a box , but if it’s just short term I guess I can do it . 

She swallows wings whole , but I can try the other bones you suggest . 

I have owned this breed since I was 19 , first back in the UK when I became smitten after looking after a friends girl when he went on tour . Zelda is the best I have had , complete clown and rock solid temp .