Tempus Fugit Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 Apparently there is now a book about it titled "How to tame a fox and build a dog" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossumCorner Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 I don't know if I could read it given the warnings in the review. I worked for a couple of years in Poland and had friends who knew more than I could talk about concerning the cage-fox fur industry. The life (and death) of the foxes is haunting. I get that this is not the main topic of the book, and yes the general interest of the research is amazing stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 Belayev also ran a shorter opposite selection criteria experiment with foxes to show that the original premise was not an anomaly... and was successful in that endevour too. The results of that experiment were all destroyed once the premise was proven - fair cop, as they were all quite aggressively dangerous... errr! Since Belayev died, and Trut took over the reins, there have been expansions of the project to breeding pet foxes from the "stock" she had - and there are quite a few now living in family environments across Europe as pets. Personally, while I think the experiment was groundbreaking, the end result is not a "fox" as we all know them from history - they are not just more domesticated, but there are many physiological changes that I believe could possibly now categorise the experiment subjects/descendants as a new subspecies/breed of the fox family... kind of how we differentiate between the Pitbull and the AmStaff (if that makes sense). "True" (read from wild stock) foxes can make interesting pets, but as with any exotic animal, they are not to everyone's taste, and should never be regarded as anything like a truly domestic pet... and I speak from experience... T. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillybob Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Sounds like a even more "thinking" fox, which to me is not a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 I went through a phase of being fascinated with Belayev's experiments. The memory and question that lingers relates to degrees of domestication. As I remember, Belayev started out with levels of domestication: A,B,C...etc. and ended up having to add AA and(?) AAA because his foxes kept getting tamer and tamer. The question is whether some breeds of dogs are more domesticated than others...due to more intense selection for ability to live in close contact with humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbesotted Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 43 minutes ago, sandgrubber said: The question is whether some breeds of dogs are more domesticated than others...due to more intense selection for ability to live in close contact with humans. I would say that almost goes without saying. It is interesting to note that for example that within the working breeds some such as the border collie..look to the owner for directions whereas the guardian breed raised to make independent decisions regarding the safety of the flock and shepherd while the shepherd was asleep is frequently viewed as more ignorant. In the early days those unsuitable for the job were either abandoned or killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillybob Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Id be interested to know how long it takes a domesticated dog to become a wild dog. We have lots of wild dogs up here, not too many are part dingo most come from escaped or dumped domesticated dogs way back in their history. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 4 hours ago, gillybob said: Id be interested to know how long it takes a domesticated dog to become a wild dog. We have lots of wild dogs up here, not too many are part dingo most come from escaped or dumped domesticated dogs way back in their history. AFAIK , GB, 'WILD' means never domestic to start with ... lions, lynx,elephants, snakes are all wild, as are foxes ... Cats & dogs living/breeding apart from humans are FERAL . it takes a surprisingly short time for dogs to become feral, sadly ..depending on the bonds it had with owners - possibly less than a year? if it then bred - offspring would be truly feral 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossumCorner Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 On 1/12/2017 at 7:53 AM, gillybob said: Sounds like a even more "thinking" fox, which to me is not a good thing. Agree, although I don't see how foxes can think more than they do already - clever to the core (or is that bad to the bone). Yes Perseph, the poultry pages are full of references to wild foxes. It's sometimes easier there to say nothing because a/ nobody cares and b/ the topic quickly disappears forever (til the next reference). Driving home late last night I saw a very pale cream fox cross the road, really striking, off-white tail and all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillybob Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 Thanks Pers. I think of the size of the feral cats I used to see in queensland and was wondering if dogs settle into their environment like cats do. The dairy I lived and worked on had major problem with dogs, big dogs, they did so much damage to calving cows. That place was many ks from town its where I first learnt about ferals, animals and people the people came for milk! When I travelled to Nambour every wendesday for study, on the way home I used to see many dingos, I really admired them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 I've never seen feral dogs who have been somewhere for generations - would imagine they'd scale down in size & become homogenous . yes, Feral cats can become ginormous ! 90% of the ones here are grey/black tabby .rarely there is a longhair . Some gingers are very occasionally seen . In years gone by when we had our pet cats free ranging .. we only ever had gingers . Anything grey could then be shot safely .I love cats ...and each feral I send back to its ancestors gets an apology & a tear or two - despite what ferals do to the wildlife . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillybob Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 When I was out of town here the main gate was at the end of a dirt road about 10ks from town, people used to dump kittens all the time at the gate. What they thought would happen to them I don't know. But I always knew by the amount of dead things I saw, the body count would at least double. I had a chook farm next door and every evening at sunset the foxes would go past my place off to get a chook or two. The paddock next to the chook place always had dead chooks and eggs in it! They got a pair of Guardians but they went bush, didn't stop the foxes thou. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 Foxes are indeed masters of using all their senses. Think I've mentioned on here that 20 or so yrs ago ..foxes were almost as thick as blowflies here ! I once saw one stealing the dogs' food ...while another acted as a distraction .. Once I took a dog & torch away from the house a bit to try & see one off - the dog would hunt foxes. What happened? saw foxes'eyes .. told dog to do her thing ..and could hear running pads on teh clay track ... galloop ,galloop .... No other noise, so I recalled dog ... pad, pad, pad .... back to me saw her eyes, and loose-tongued smile in the light ....and fox eyes not far behind her ! Fox plopped on its haunches, tongue hanging to one side - so Dog was sent off again ...The playing chasey went on for a few minutes ..and I was enthralled . That fox got a reprieve ...... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Fugit Posted December 3, 2017 Author Share Posted December 3, 2017 On 02/12/2017 at 2:17 PM, persephone said: AFAIK , GB, 'WILD' means never domestic to start with ... lions, lynx,elephants, snakes are all wild, as are foxes ... Cats & dogs living/breeding apart from humans are FERAL . it takes a surprisingly short time for dogs to become feral, sadly ..depending on the bonds it had with owners - possibly less than a year? if it then bred - offspring would be truly feral As far as I aware, the above is a slang definition. According to my Oxford Dictionary, the etymology of the word wild is of Germanic origin, from the word wilde meaning not domesticated or cultivated, whereas feral is from the Latin fera, referring specifically to wild animals. So it would be correct to refer to a wild animal as a feral animal but a wildflower would not generally be referred to as a feral flower. So lawyers and aficionados of Latin would talk about feral foxes whilst peasants and lower classes would refer to them as wild foxes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 A really dumb fox would still make the smartest Border Collie look like a dunce... they are super smart... and have memories like elephants to boot! For all the things we don't really like about foxes here in Australia, you still have to admire their adaptability and tenacity to survive and thrive - no matter what we stupid humans do to try to stop them... *grin* Saw my first evidence of fox activity at my work farm in ages yesterday... a bit of bunny fluff scattered near a fence. Good thing too, as the bloody bunnies have been getting so thick on the ground that they have been wandering up to the cattle/goat/sheep feed troughs and feeding happily alongside our animals for weeks now... Even the ravens have been poaching small bunnies at the farm lately... but I wish they'd stop dropping bits of bunny from the sky... I nearly ended up with a bunny leg hat the other day! Seriously, the portion landed less than 6 inches from me! Still hasn't stopped them going into the duck pen and stealing the eggs though... T. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Just as long as the ravens don't drop bits of 1080 -laced wing-tips etc .. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossumCorner Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 2 hours ago, tdierikx said: ....the bloody bunnies have been getting so thick on the ground that they have been wandering up to the cattle/goat/sheep feed troughs and feeding happily alongside our animals for weeks now... Myxie or Calici will get them sooner or later: short term though, they bounce back. We have myxie through at the moment, it is awful to see but good to see the numbers reduce. A few around the house yards I don't really mind, the sheep have wrecked the garden anyway. And they do keep Ben company, he had one pet rabbit that just hung out with him, it was really cute. It disappeared (hawk, myxie, whatever) a month or so back. Now he has three little buds, not as chummy as the first one, but they help him eat his hay and he pretends to attack them, the dog keeps me sane. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 10 hours ago, persephone said: Just as long as the ravens don't drop bits of 1080 -laced wing-tips etc .. We don't tend to have the DPI dropping 1080 around the farm thank dog! Regular Calici drops though... *sigh* I haven't been taking my foster pups to work of late, as it's either been too hot or too wet for them there... The ravens have been increasing in numbers due to the large number of bunnies too... and the buggers are getting so cocky that I've even caught them nosing under the ducks and chickens to steal their eggs! More fun stuff for the buggers to drop on our heads... grrr! T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 45 minutes ago, tdierikx said: The ravens have been increasing in numbers due to the large number of bunnies too... and the buggers are getting so cocky that I've even caught them nosing under the ducks and chickens to steal their eggs! wow!!! that is being very familiar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillybob Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Two doors up from me a man used to have show chooks, this was at least 10-12 years ago, the foxes still come to visit! They come through my yard sometimes and make the dogs crazy. Speaking of hunting birds, I was out the front of my place just sitting on the steps and there was a blackbird digging in my garden. Then there was a squark and a woosh and a Harrier grabbed that bird and was away. It was about 10 feet away from where I was sitting. I don't mind because I don't like introduced bloody blackbirds that take over the nesting areas in my garden. I have rabbits in my yard they come from the paddocks and the trees hide them from the Wedgeis and Hawkes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now