Opinions on new tinned raw food

[RuralPug]

I would wonder if the probably well-intentioned but not very well-researched product developers have made the basic mistake of mistaking a low protein diet for a low purine diet?

I am very sorry to say that the Pug Fernando is not the best advertisement if he has been on this product for very long as he very obviously has a massive yeast problem, which needs to be corrected by changing his diet ...  

[Diva]

I don't think the protein is low, the well known brand raw patties I feed sometimes are more like 13% protein.

 

But the fat % of this food seems very high. And the reference to it being salted for preserving purposes bothers me too. 

[Agota Jakutyte]

On 15/11/2017 at 9:03 PM, karen15 said:

To me it reads like they're taking the piss. Quotes from the Huffington Post and Daily Mail at the start probably put me in that frame of mind and what I read subsequently was read with that slant. The poor grammar did nothing to improve my thoughts.

 

Dear Karen,

 

Thank you for your message. We use quotes from media outlets because we want to show social trust we already got, that we're not a new/unreliable company. We worked with TOP media brands, who called us, asked for our long story, philosophy, ingredients, quality...

 

I apologize for our grammar mistakes on the webpage. We're not a native English speakers. I already gave our text to professionals.

 

As I said we learn from our mistakes and I can only say THANK YOU! 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Agota Jakutyte

[Agota Jakutyte]

On 15/11/2017 at 10:13 PM, Scrappi&Monty said:

And the two “countdowns” are on different numbers.

Also “ketogenic bible” just screams dodgy dieting fad to me... 

Dear Scrappi & Monty,

 

Could you explain to me what do you have in mind by saying "dieting fad"?

[Agota Jakutyte]

On 17/11/2017 at 9:49 AM, sandgrubber said:

35% fat, 17% protein?  Sounds great if you want weight gain and pancreatitis.  Given that fat has nearly twice the energy density as protein, this would result in the dog getting roughly 4 times as much energy from fat as from protein.

 

I don't get why people think carbs are so bad for dogs.

Dear Sandgrubber,

 

Ketogenic diet works pretty familiar for dogs as it works for people too. It’s pretty obvious the well-known advice to “eat less, move more” for losing weight is not working for most people — if any. In fact, at least ⅔ of dieters who lose weight not only gain it back but often do so with some extra weight.

 

Low-fat, low-calorie diets force us and our dogs to battle both an elevation in hunger and a slower, adapted metabolism—setting us up for the ultimate disaster of weight regain. For a diet to be effective and sustainable, it needs to prevent weight regain and place hunger control like ketogenic diet.

 

When you bring your dog in ketosis - metabolic process in which his body burns fat for energy instead of its primary fuel, carbohydrates. (When you drastically cut down on the amount of carbohydrates or calories your dog is eating, and there aren’t enough carbohydrates from food to burn for energy, his body switches to the state of ketosis).

 

Weight loss:

 

1. So when your dog eats low-carb and his body starts burning fat as its primary source of fuel, he's essentially in a fasting state where his body is using your fat stores directly for energy. 

2. Ketogenic diets are also helpful in reducing appetite by altering the concentrations of hormones and nutrients that affect hunger.

 

Pancreatitis:

 

If you visited our website you can notice that we're not talking only about ketogenic diet, but we encourage dog owners to improve their LIFESTYLE.

 

Pancreatitis occurs when sedentary animals are fed high-fat diets and DO NOT EXERCISE. In essence sled dogs/high-performance dogs that burn tons of calories are fed 80% fat diets with no incidence of pancreatitis. Dogs whose energy requirements are exceptionally high burn so many calories so quickly that pancreatitis doesn't occur. 

 

That's why we encourage the combination of metabolic conditioning (exercise), high-fat, low-carb (kibble), raw diet.

 

In conclusion:

Your dog might benefit a lot from the ketogenic diet but only with the following important caveats:

 

1. Exercise is key. Now, I am not expecting you to turn your dog into an Iditarod champion. But, remember, food is fuel and the fuel you feed your dog needs to be efficiently and effectively burnt off. The activity level of your dog will determine the amount of fuel you feed. Watching the Iditarod on the TV on the couch does not count ☺

 

2. No added Kibble. Do not mix a high fat, low net carb diet with kibble. That, my friends, is a recipe for disaster. A ketogenic diet is not to be used as a topper you sprinkle on kibble. As you transition your dog to raw, it is okay to mix, reducing the kibble over a period of a few days so that your dog gets used to a raw diet and it is not a shock to their system. 

 

IMPORTANT. WHY CARBS ARE BAD!

 

Most commercial dry foods contain between 30% and 70% carbohydrates. However, mammals, including pets and people, have no ability to deal with constant, excess starch and sugar.  

As four billion years of evolution adapted all creatures to their surroundings, constant high levels of starch and sugar were never encountered. The average starch and sugar content of meat, fish, eggs, insects, plants, fruits, berries, and vegetables is about 4%. NOW contrast this 4% starch-sugar content with the average starch-sugar content of dry, expanded pet food, the type bought in the grocery store.  Most all kibble pet food is 40% carbohydrate. It should be obvious where this discussion is going; 4% versus 40% (sometimes even 60%).

 

Because of this commercial/ big manufacturers nonsense, we have this shocking statistic:

 

• 1 in 2 dogs get cancer during their lifetime and only 10% of it has genetic causes. Even 90% are the results of unhealthy lifestyle! (Source: Association for Pet Obesity Prevention)
• Diabetes in dogs has risen over 900% since 2011. (Animal Friends Pet Insurance)
• Up to 40% of all cancers can be prevented simply by implementing dietary changes. (Canine Nutrigenomics)
• In the ’70s, dogs lived to age 17; today the average lifespan is 11. (Long Living Pets Research)

 

I hope this information was useful to all of you.

 

 

 

 

[Agota Jakutyte]

20 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

I did a little searching on ketogenic diets for dogs.  To my surprise, there is some clinical evidence indicating that, in some cases, ketosis is helpful for control of epilepsy.  Could find no clinical evidence that it is helpful for  cancer or weight loss in dogs.

Dear Sandgrubber,

 

I would like you to present one of the oldest theories about cancer which is official now. It was found by Noble prize Winner Dr. Otto H Warburg who has devoted his life to study the causes of cancer. It's called THE ROOT CAUSE OF CANCER .

 

As you know all normal cells have an absolute requirement for oxygen, but cancer cells can live without oxygen - a rule without exception. "Deprive a cell 35% of its oxygen for 48 hours and it may become cancerous." Dr. Warburg has made it clear that the root cause of cancer is oxygen deficiency, which creates an acidic state in the human body. So instead oxygen, the cancer cells fueled their growth by swallowing up enormous amounts of glucose (blood sugar) and breaking it down without oxygen. 

 

Warburg’s discovery, later named the Warburg effect, is estimated to occur in up to 80 percent of cancers. It is so fundamental to most cancers that a positron emission tomography (PET) scan, which has emerged as an important tool in the staging and diagnosis of cancer, works simply by revealing the places in the body where cells are consuming extra glucose. In many cases, the more glucose a tumor consumes, the worse a patient’s prognosis.

 

You can probably tell where I’m leading you.  Look at the picture below what happens if we reduce the amount of glucose in the body.

The FDG-PET scan.

 

Another example.

You can see areas of the body where cells are using large amounts of glucose (areas that are metabolically active). 

 

You can also find more here: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0036197

https://www.nature.com/articles/icb197954?foxtrotcallback=true

 

HERE YOU CAN WATCH THE STUNNING RESULTS FROM OUR FRIENDS OF EPIDEMIX FOUNDATION ONLY ABOUT IMPACT FOR DOGS

 

 

 

With Love,

 

Agota

[Agota Jakutyte]

20 hours ago, JulesP said:

 

What is the science behind your food?

 

Dear JulesP,

 

I answer this question on my previews comment.

 

Agota

[Agota Jakutyte]

19 hours ago, Scrappi&Monty said:

How does the raw food work in a can? Would it still require refrigeration? 

 

Also, what are the ingredients in the product? Will that be released soon? 

 

 

Dear Scrappi & Monty,

 

I already answered the question about the technology we use to keep our raw food canned.

 

The second question is SUPER GOOD! Thank you so much! We prepared 5 different packagings according to your dog's weight. At the moment we are still developing our landing page, that's why you can't see this information. 

The important fact to mention: you need 2x less amount of ROCKETO food comparing to kibble and other wet foods. Because our food is concentrated with more nutrients than other foods. Most of  BIG brands/ manufacturers are selling air in form of kibble or water in wet food in order to make food bigger ( you automatically think that your dog is full after BIGGER portion, but the important part to measure is not THE AMOUNT OF DOOD BUT NUTRITION VALUE YOUR DOG GETS!)

 

[Agota Jakutyte]

6 hours ago, The Spotted Devil said:

17% protein is way too low. 

Dear The Spotted Devil,

 

I already explained why it's important to give more FATS than PROTEINS AND CARBS to your dog. Proteins are metabolized to glucose the same as carbs. 

[Agota Jakutyte]

4 hours ago, Diva said:

I don't think the protein is low, the well known brand raw patties I feed sometimes are more like 13% protein.

 

But the fat % of this food seems very high. And the reference to it being salted for preserving purposes bothers me too. 

Dear Diva,

 

Thank you for your message. I already answered the question why we put so many fats. Regarding your question about salt. We DO NOT USE ADDITIONAL SALT IN OUR PRODUCTS! We use old french "confit" method.

 

Agota 

[Agota Jakutyte]

4 hours ago, RuralPug said:

I would wonder if the probably well-intentioned but not very well-researched product developers have made the basic mistake of mistaking a low protein diet for a low purine diet?

I am very sorry to say that the Pug Fernando is not the best advertisement if he has been on this product for very long as he very obviously has a massive yeast problem, which needs to be corrected by changing his diet ...  

Dear RuralPug,

 

Thank you for your message. Could you please tell me why are you thinking that Ferdinando has a MASSIVE yeast problem? Because our doctor and I personally haven't noticed anything.

 

I would be super thankful for your answer. 

 

Agota

[sandgrubber]

23 hours ago, JulesP said:

 

My argument would be that a high protein diet would be normal for a dog therefore their bodies wouldn't go into ketosis the way a human does. Or rather ketosis doesn't apply to them. 

 

Silly marketing ploy using catch phrases to suck people in. 

Argument is low value compared to evidence based studies.  I have lots of theories about dogs...and other things.  I treat theories, my own, especially, with a grain of salt.  I find it sad that SO much in the dog world revolves around unsubstantiated claims. 

BTW, this product isn't high protein, it's high fat.  In evolutionary terms, I'd guess that most of nature runs lean except where fat is required for storage or insulation (hibernation, blubber, etc.) so would be suspicious of high fat.   I can't find much research on very high fat diets for dogs, apart from recommendation of low fat for pancreatitis.

[JRG]

6 hours ago, Agota Jakutyte said:

 

Dear Srappy, Monty & Persephone,

 

Let me shortly describe the technology we use to make long-lasting/raw/ketogenic food.

 

First of all, let us all agree what RAW really means. * RAW - Means that no food is heated above 104 degrees Fahrenheit (40 degrees Celsius). Foods are eaten fresh, dehydrated with low heat or fermented.

 

ROCKETO is manufactured using old French “confit” technique when food is cooked slowly in fat with low temperature (under 40°C / 104°F) over a long period of time. After salting and cooking in the fat with low temperature, sealed and stored in a cool, dark place, “confit” can last for several months or years and still retain all nutrient features as before preparation.

 

Just a minute - RAW is RAW ie not processed in  any way.  

Confit is a cooking method and there are additives eg salt therefore no longer in its raw state.

Dehydrated is also , by definition, NOT RAW ie the food is changed from it's original state

[Diva]

8 hours ago, Agota Jakutyte said:

 

After salting and cooking in the fat with low temperature, sealed and stored in a cool, dark place, “confit” can last for several months or years 

 

That is a cut and paste from Wikipedia, I would hope a manufacturer would know enough about their method that they would not have to rely on that. And as stated by Wikipedia, meat is salted in confit as part of the preservation process.

 

Trying to present a cooked and salted food that is high in cooked fats as somehow 'tinned raw' is extremely odd.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Diva

[The Spotted Devil]

4 hours ago, Agota Jakutyte said:

Dear The Spotted Devil,

 

I already explained why it's important to give more FATS than PROTEINS AND CARBS to your dog. Proteins are metabolized to glucose the same as carbs. 

High fat in the diet can cause pancreatitis. Not something that reflects a raw prey diet. Ever seen a fat wild rabbit?

 

Proteins are first broken down into amino acids. Then a-keto acids which can be either used to generate energy or create amino acids (for muscle repair, growth) or fat or glucose. You can explain all you like but the fact is that 17% protein is too low for many dogs. The first sign is a rough, dull coat. 22% is what I would recommend for the average dog. 

 

[Scrappi&Monty]

7 hours ago, Agota Jakutyte said:

Dear Scrappi & Monty,

 

Could you explain to me what do you have in mind by saying "dieting fad"?

Thanks for replying Agota  

I’m all for raw food & feed my dogs mostly a balanced raw diet that I prepare (approx 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ) and a premium low grain kibble (Black Hawk) and have certainly seen huge improvements when switching them from supermarket food. 

 

But your style of marketing this whole “ketogenic” thing portrays it in a suspicious way. Firstly, ketosis is when the body’s metabolism changes to take energy from ketone bodies in the blood rather than blood glucose. I have read about this occurring in humans, cows & sheep, and only being proven beneficial in epileptic humans. I haven’t seen anything about it being proven healthy in dogs, or being able to occur in dogs. 

Dogs on a regular raw diet already eat mostly meat (protein & fat) depending on the diet... and a fully raw diet doesn’t have any carbs anyway. 

So I don’t understand why you say “ketogenic” apart from marketing.

 

Especially with references from the Daily Mail & 

These media outlets in the picture, which are all somewhat unreliable. Perhaps see if you can get reference from a more trusted & reliable source. Find a few vets who would be willing to endorse your company, especially if they have a speciality in nutrition. That would increase reliability dramatically.

 

It just seems a little gimmicky, like in strange and unbalanced human diets like “juice cleanses” and “pH balancing diets that cure cancer” (but really don’t) and some dodgy forms of veganism. 

Or vegan dog food etc, some people think that’s great, but really it’s only purpose is to appeal to the human, take their money & don’t care that their product killed the dog. 

 

The reference to “The Ketogenic Bible” really emphasises this & makes it seem a lot like a gimmicky, unresearched diet fad. 

 

Also it would be great if an ingredients list was available. That is the first thing I look at when buying a dog food, and would be the make or break for many dog owners. If the ingredients are appropriate and in a suitable proportion and the nutritional analysis is good then I’d be much more likely to purchase. Personally I never read all the other junk on a dog food ad/flyer (like “our food is so good because it is made with wholesome ingredients from the loving hands of farmers” blah blah it’s all advertising to condition you to like their brand and trust them.) 

[Scrappi&Monty]

2 hours ago, JRG said:

Just a minute - RAW is RAW ie not processed in  any way.  

Confit is a cooking method and there are additives eg salt therefore no longer in its raw state.

Dehydrated is also , by definition, NOT RAW ie the food is changed from it's original state

I agree, I’m not sure if it’s appropriate to market it as raw... confit duck is not the same as raw duck by any standards. 

That is just false advertising... 

As JRG said,

raw meat = an animal that has been slaughtered and butchered and possibly minced.

Anything further than that is not really raw. Adding salt or acid doesn’t count as raw (like gravalax salmon isn’t raw salmon). Confit isn’t quite raw, it could be classified as “rare” like rare steak perhaps. 

Dehydration is not raw, yes it retains the nutritional value but it has been altered. You don’t see butchers selling dehydrated meat... 

 

I would be still happy to buy your product if it were ADVERTISED that confit is how you sterilise & preserve the food, which I think is fine. Better than blasting it in a furnace. But it is false advertising to label something as something it’s not. 

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Scrappi&Monty

[persephone]

been searching ..and this definition, from HERE  is simple , confirming that food is cooked , not raw . 

 

Quote

Generally, cold or room temperature fat is poured over the item-to-be-confit'ed, then it's placed in a relatively low temperature oven, say, 250 to 275°F. During the course of cooking, the fat temperature will not rise much above 190 to 200°F—hot enough to break down tough connective tissue, but not hot enough to boil water or cause much evaporation. Meats cook and tenderize with virtually no moisture loss or flavor loss. Cooking times are measured in hours, rather than minutes.

around 60 yrs ago , our working dogs were fed very differently ..when a bitch had a litter .. very often she was given a large container  to feed from ad lib.
This container  was filled with mutton fat ..rendered, and containing a small percentage of a basic cereal rich dry dog food  mixed in. 
part carcasses of whatever were fed when available .
... the only illnesses back then, and these rare - were distemper and cancer .
 

[RuralPug]

7 hours ago, Agota Jakutyte said:

Dear RuralPug,

 

Thank you for your message. Could you please tell me why are you thinking that Ferdinando has a MASSIVE yeast problem? Because our doctor and I personally haven't noticed anything.

 

I would be super thankful for your answer. 

 

Agota

The red staining clearly visible on his face and feet is a classic symptom of yeast over bloom. In the short term, anti-fungal topicals may help, but in the long term only diet and correctly balancing the immune system will help.

[Agota Jakutyte]

Dear ALL,

 

Thank you for your messages, it really makes me super happy that all of you are conscious dog owners!   But I want all of us to agree that IF I VALIDATE MY ANSWERS WITH LONG TERM SCIENTIFIC RESEARCHES, I want YOU TO BASE YOUR OPINION WITH SCIENCE TOO.  Because now most of you just telling your opinion which is fine for discussion, but then do not appeal that we are FAKES/DO EVERYTHING FOR MARKETING....