Hard decision, biting dog. *Updated*

[RuralPug]

Basically, yes, as others have said, a thorough vet check before you make any decisions.
It is good that you are seriously considering PTS as she is obviously a very unhappy little girl to be so upset  by sudden movement etc.
You just need to check that there isn't a treatment option before you take that final step. 
I would be considering a muzzle in the meantime, if you can find one small enough.

[Rascalmyshadow]

I can't lock her in her crate she has a heat mat in it, if she got too hot she would have no way of moving and cooling down, she would also have no access to water.

We also cant muzzle her, she is a 1.8kg apple head Chi with narrowed sinuses,  apart from not being able to fit a muzzle, it is too risky.

 

If her vet check comes back all clear we will assume it's behavioural and start with medication.

 

I have baby geese in my laundry at the moment but in a few weeks they will be outside so I am going to move her crate into there (we don't use the room for anything anyway) and get my husband to fit a baby gate. The room is tucked away so she won't be able to constantly see anyone but at least she'll have space and won't be able to toilet on my carpet. 

It will then be making sure she is put in there before letting anyone in the house.

 

Still going to be hard work and a bit stressful for me if people are here too long, but at least I will know she is comfortable and no one can be bitten.

Il get a DAP diffuser as well for the room and see if that helps.

 

[Tassie]

Such a hard position for you to be in.    Hope your discussion with your vet is helpful.   Quality of life is a key consideration IMHO, for your little dog and for your family.  In your situation, I think I would be trying the pain/anxiety management through medication for a little while, if your vet is supportive, and managing when needed with the crate/baby gate. or crate/xpen, if it is workable (just to keep everyone safe.)    The other thing you could do, which may ease the making of the hard decision, would be to make a list of things in the little dog's life and the family's life that are happy,  and another list of things that are problematic/make the dog and/or the people unhappy.   This could not only help you make the decision, but help the family come to terms with what is decided.

Wish you all the best.  You have done so much for this little girl.

 

ETA  Was typing when the last two posts went up.    The laundry option sounds feasible for a try.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Tassie

[Loving my Oldies]

@Rascalmyshadow I am sure you are much too experienced to do this, but many years ago my sister had a dog who only had to give a muted bark for her (my sister) to practically have hysterics about what would the neighbours think.  Naturally when anyone, invited or not, came to the door, the dog would bark and my sister would be running around hysterically yelling and waving her arms at anyone who was home to grab the dog and shut him in the bathroom.  Well, you can imagine what this did to the poor dog - he was a total wreck.   This is not an exaggeration.  

[Rascalmyshadow]

24 minutes ago, Dame Danny's Darling said:

@Rascalmyshadow I am sure you are much too experienced to do this, but many years ago my sister had a dog who only had to give a muted bark for her (my sister) to practically have hysterics about what would the neighbours think.  Naturally when anyone, invited or not, came to the door, the dog would bark and my sister would be running around hysterically yelling and waving her arms at anyone who was home to grab the dog and shut him in the bathroom.  Well, you can imagine what this did to the poor dog - he was a total wreck.   This is not an exaggeration.  

Wow no we are definitely not like that, we are all quite calm including my kids. 

 

Yelling and carrying on is completely banned in our house, Rascal has bad noise phobia and it freaks him out so generally no one behaves like that.

 

Normally when we go to answer the door Claudia will bark then either go to her crate or jump into her bed in the loungeroom, I usually just have to tell her to stay there and as long as I'm watching she does.

If it's someone she doesn't know well, one of us will just pick her up and put her in the bedroom.

 

The three bites were immediate family and our best mate, all of which have always come in without a worry so none of us bothered to watch her or tell her to go to her bed.

 

My mum was the most shocked because she has come over to visit every Sat for years and never had an incident with any of our dogs including Claudia.

[Rascalmyshadow]

I've spoke with the our vet clinic and she is booked in next week to have a complete check over and be assessed by a vet behaviourist they have there. 

First consult is normal price but if she needs proper behavioural consults they are $300 a visit!

Hopefully we will get answers without spending so much, there's no way my husband will agree to it.

 

[Rascalmyshadow]

Here are a couple of pics of our girl, just so everyone can put a face to her name and see why we so much don't want to PTS.

 

                          

[Loving my Oldies]

Darling little girl.  I do hope you find some answers which can be addressed reasonably easily.    

[corvus]

I'm a bit confused.

 

You said that the times she has bitten recently, it has all been people she knew. My response to this is to think maybe she is most expressive with those she already knows, because she trusts them more. It wouldn't be uncommon for a dog's fear to suppress aggressive responses. In other words, she is too scared of strangers to aggress towards them.

 

However, you seem to be suggesting this is part of a bigger problem. Like any time someone comes, her responses have become more extreme in recent times, and she is not coping with them being there. 

 

If I have understood correctly, my first guess would be that the visitors stress her out, and she is most likely to express this where she is least suppressed by fear - i.e. with familiar people. But, it doesn't entirely fit the pattern. I would expect the aggression to come out when the upsetting stimulus was present. So, that would suggest she is not okay with these familiar people being near her, either. Which would prompt me to consider she is in pain. If she's not, then it sounds like she is becoming sensitised, which is undoable, but you probably need to do some detective work to identify why it happened in the first place. I'm getting the feeling this is complicated. 

[PossumCorner]

I can only offer sympathy Rascalmyshadow, no advice.  We have a similar situation with Rheneas - he is about 14, has always been touch sensitive and reactive, and now that his sight and hearing are fading it is becoming harder for him (and us) to manage his nervy reactions.  Not at desperate point yet, and have a good vet to monitor him, so one day at a time finding the best management strategies and accepting when they have run out.

 

On another subject, what is this about baby geese in the bathtub?  And when will they appear in the ducks and geese section, with photos??  Did you see my little toots there, can't believe how fast they grow.  I have another four coming soon as our hatching was pretty poor - they are 8 weeks now, will be 12 wks when I pick them up, so have missed their baby days.  And talking about pet aggression, two of my older boys have so ramped it up, can't go in their little field without armour plate or a plastic rake to fend them off, savage-as in the breeding season.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

 

 

I would not rush to put this dog to sleep - tiny dogs and especially Chihuahuas are not suitable for busy households.  The environment has changed if you have a toddler.   Some dogs don't cope all that well with this situation.

 

I just connected a dog owner's family with a rescue group.  They had a Chi, I am not sure where he was purchased from.  Scenario was that the person had daily care visitors and the Chi was trying to bite them all.  I thought probably very stressed with all the activity and that he should be given a chance in a rescue group.  If he wasn't safe to rehome, this group would definitely not put him back out there.

 

The dog came into care literally a few days ago, he's now in an experienced foster carer's home and is thriving, after a slightly grumpy start.  He has calmed right down and has even started to play with the other dogs.  Totally different behaviour in a different environment.

 

Your little Chi is very tiny, the world is a threatening place for her and I'd say most likely the whole atmosphere - no matter how calm you may think it is, is simply too much for this particular dog. 

 

As a rescuer of now 15 years taking dogs fairly constantly in that time, with some dogs - although I've cared for them and loved them, I can see I'm the wrong home for them for a variety of reasons so my job is to place them in the right home, once I've assessed their needs carefully. 

 

I'm currently assisting an owner with a Chinese Crested - a breed known for strange quirks - this dog nipped me 3 times during my visit and that's what she is doing with most visitors to this busy household.  Great with other dogs and cats but cannot cope with the procession of teenagers/students/other visitors that this household offers.  Family members have also been putting the dog into very confronting situations since she arrived - other people's busy houses, dog parks and so on.  The other resident dog is fine with it all.  My idea is to foster the dog and assess and find a very quiet home - no children and an owner who will not expose her to multiple visitors and situations.  Some people would put this dog down perhaps but I am 100% sure she's in the wrong place but will thrive in a different situation.

 

A suggestion has been made to contact a Chi rescuer with many years of experience.  If the vet finds nothing physical wrong, I'd urge you to do that or even contact them now and discuss the behaviour with a very experienced person.  My breed of choice - Italian Greyhounds - are frequently misunderstood in a pound situation and put down because they look like they will bite - in their terror.  If anyone knows the breed, you'd know that this is absolutely the last thing they would do BUT they don't cope mentally in a pound environment so bark and back away from strangers, giving the impression of being aggro.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Her Majesty Dogmad

[Little Gifts]

On 01/11/2017 at 4:49 PM, Rascalmyshadow said:

Not harsh and I am trying to come to terms with that.

 

Whats stopping me is her being so good with myself, husband and older two kids any of us can do anything with her and she's not a problem, also every time she's bitten it's been when someone has either stood up to walk or just stepped in the door.

 

If everyone is sitting down she will be friendly but as soon as they stand up she will go for their legs. 

 

Her behaviour with my toddler only happens if she is on our laps otherwise she's fine with her as well.

This part was really telling for me. She is fine when her world is predictable and as she can manage it. You have been doing everything you can to make life the way she enjoys it most but you can't control everything. Whether it is age, a health issue or just other subtle changes going on in her life, fear has crept back in. I'd get a medical assessment of course but your next step after that could be assessing what has caused her to move back into fear mode again and be so hyper vigilant for threats. I've got a similar scenario and made an eleventh hour decision to get in another behaviourist (this time it was Jane Harper) rather than pts and our girl is much calmer and happier now. Some of it is to do with age, some is to do with more mental stimulation and some of it is to do with her looking more to us for answers on whether something is a threat or not. We did similar to you not forcing her to deal with anything she didn't want but that didn't abate all her fears so others built and she was lacking healthy stimulation that a dog who leaves her property would be getting so things just kept building up for her and she became unpredictable with our other dog. Now we seem to have a better balance and it hasn't been hard, but we are always, ALWAYS vigilant for changes in her behaviour as I don't think there is a one size fits all response to these things, and how she feels will change over time and we need to change with it.

 

It is hard to let a good dog go without knowing if you did the right thing. Exhaust all your options (if you can) and make your decision. Big hugs to you - this kind of a decision is a crusher.

[Rascalmyshadow]

Ok just to clarify a couple of things, our girl is an angel if we don't have any visitors, she is also fine with my toddler unless she's on one of our laps. 

She is not nervous or stressed and is a happy playful dog.

 

 

When she first got sick was when she started this behaviour,

it only happened with people she didn't know when they came into the house or on the rare occasion she decided to come for a walk.

Before then we didn't have any issues with her.

 

In the last few weeks the behaviour has extended to people she does know, but her behaviour with us has not changed.

 

As soon as visitors sit down she is fine and will jump up for a cuddle and pat but as soon as they stand up she goes for their legs.

 

We don't have visitors often except for my mum and brother and parents in law (on the odd occasion our best mate), I generally don't let my kids bring their friends over so the house is normally just her people or those she knows well.

 

I don't think she is sore since she's happy to be handled all over without any reaction, I am concerned that maybe she is getting another bacterial or fungal sinus infection which is what I'm going to get checked along with everything else.

 

I put this post up just to get outsiders opinions, I am well experienced but sometimes when your in the middle of a situation you miss stuff or can't see the bigger picture.

 

 

[Rascalmyshadow]

7 hours ago, PossumCorner said:

I can only offer sympathy Rascalmyshadow, no advice.  We have a similar situation with Rheneas - he is about 14, has always been touch sensitive and reactive, and now that his sight and hearing are fading it is becoming harder for him (and us) to manage his nervy reactions.  Not at desperate point yet, and have a good vet to monitor him, so one day at a time finding the best management strategies and accepting when they have run out.

 

On another subject, what is this about baby geese in the bathtub?  And when will they appear in the ducks and geese section, with photos??  Did you see my little toots there, can't believe how fast they grow.  I have another four coming soon as our hatching was pretty poor - they are 8 weeks now, will be 12 wks when I pick them up, so have missed their baby days.  And talking about pet aggression, two of my older boys have so ramped it up, can't go in their little field without armour plate or a plastic rake to fend them off, savage-as in the breeding season.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh I haven't even thought about there being a duck and geese section lol not too good from a long timer.

Il get on there and post a few pics.

[_PL_]

On 01/11/2017 at 9:38 PM, Rascalmyshadow said:

Is she an approachable person and someone that would be happy to offer advice if we aren't looking at rehoming?

I honestly don't know, she may be very busy these days. 

 

Like corvus said, if you need to raise funds for a behaviourist I'll chip in too.  IMHO if you can ultimately keep her with some work that's ideal.

[Rascalmyshadow]

1 hour ago, Little Gifts said:

This part was really telling for me. She is fine when her world is predictable and as she can manage it. You have been doing everything you can to make life the way she enjoys it most but you can't control everything. Whether it is age, a health issue or just other subtle changes going on in her life, fear has crept back in. I'd get a medical assessment of course but your next step after that could be assessing what has caused her to move back into fear mode again and be so hyper vigilant for threats. I've got a similar scenario and made an eleventh hour decision to get in another behaviourist (this time it was Jane Harper) rather than pts and our girl is much calmer and happier now. Some of it is to do with age, some is to do with more mental stimulation and some of it is to do with her looking more to us for answers on whether something is a threat or not. We did similar to you not forcing her to deal with anything she didn't want but that didn't abate all her fears so others built and she was lacking healthy stimulation that a dog who leaves her property would be getting so things just kept building up for her and she became unpredictable with our other dog. Now we seem to have a better balance and it hasn't been hard, but we are always, ALWAYS vigilant for changes in her behaviour as I don't think there is a one size fits all response to these things, and how she feels will change over time and we need to change with it.

 

It is hard to let a good dog go without knowing if you did the right thing. Exhaust all your options (if you can) and make your decision. Big hugs to you - this kind of a decision is a crusher.

Yes this seems to be our situation, she also rarely leaves the house. She is very scared of the collar and lead so we learnt instead of getting it out before leaving the house we would let the dogs into the front yard then get all there gear out, this seemed to get her excited enough to gently coax her to have it on, if she ran back inside before putting it on we would leave her at home.

Over time she improved so instead of running away she would crawl to us with her tail between her legs so obviously still scared but actually wanting to come, once we were out walking she was fine as long as we didn't take to a particular park (we there one day and it was full of prickles she never forgot).

Then she had the infections and palate surgery which meant using a harness and no collar as it would irritate her throat, so we went back to square one to teach her to accept the harness.

 

Since moving house I have to drive into town before going for a walk, I physically cant push the pram up and down the hill we live on and its too hard for Rascal now he's getting older, but both Claudia and Rascal hate the car (the reason Rascal's original family gave him up) so generally neither of them will come, I usually end up taking Hugo by himself and then walking around the property playing games with Rascal, Claudia doesn't like the cold or wet weather so unless its hot she will only play inside.

[Rascalmyshadow]

44 minutes ago, Powerlegs said:

I honestly don't know, she may be very busy these days. 

 

Like corvus said, if you need to raise funds for a behaviourist I'll chip in too.  IMHO if you can ultimately keep her with some work that's ideal.

I don't know much about this crowd funding idea, we are not people that usually ask for money or that type of help, advice yes.

I guess it"s something we may need to seriously consider if medical issues are ruled out and we don't want to lose her. This is the first time I haven't worked and had plenty of money put away for these situations, its also the first time I have been completely out of the dog industry so I have lost all of the connections (vets, trainers etc) that I once had.

 

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

3 hours ago, Rascalmyshadow said:

Ok just to clarify a couple of things, our girl is an angel if we don't have any visitors, she is also fine with my toddler unless she's on one of our laps. 

She is not nervous or stressed and is a happy playful dog.

 

 

When she first got sick was when she started this behaviour,

it only happened with people she didn't know when they came into the house or on the rare occasion she decided to come for a walk.

Before then we didn't have any issues with her.

 

In the last few weeks the behaviour has extended to people she does know, but her behaviour with us has not changed.

 

As soon as visitors sit down she is fine and will jump up for a cuddle and pat but as soon as they stand up she goes for their legs.

 

We don't have visitors often except for my mum and brother and parents in law (on the odd occasion our best mate), I generally don't let my kids bring their friends over so the house is normally just her people or those she knows well.

 

I don't think she is sore since she's happy to be handled all over without any reaction, I am concerned that maybe she is getting another bacterial or fungal sinus infection which is what I'm going to get checked along with everything else.

 

I put this post up just to get outsiders opinions, I am well experienced but sometimes when your in the middle of a situation you miss stuff or can't see the bigger picture.

 

 

 

That describes the same issue that the owner is having with the Chinese Crested i mentioned.  That dog was a show dog for 3 years so she could not have been poorly behaved.  I don't believe the CC is sick at all, i believe she is just not coping with the environment but some people would put her to sleep for her behaviour.  The owner does not want to pay for a behaviouralist just wants the dog gone.

 

 

[_PL_]

3 hours ago, Rascalmyshadow said:

I don't know much about this crowd funding idea, we are not people that usually ask for money or that type of help, advice yes.

I guess it"s something we may need to seriously consider if medical issues are ruled out and we don't want to lose her. This is the first time I haven't worked and had plenty of money put away for these situations, its also the first time I have been completely out of the dog industry so I have lost all of the connections (vets, trainers etc) that I once had.

 

Completely understood. 

 

 

[Rascalmyshadow]

44 minutes ago, Her Majesty Dogmad said:

 

That describes the same issue that the owner is having with the Chinese Crested i mentioned.  That dog was a show dog for 3 years so she could not have been poorly behaved.  I don't believe the CC is sick at all, i believe she is just not coping with the environment but some people would put her to sleep for her behaviour.  The owner does not want to pay for a behaviouralist just wants the dog gone.

 

 

Ok I think I might have misunderstood your post, Claudia was initially in the breeders home and was being shown by her son, due to a couple of minor faults (at least that's what I was told) they stopped showing her and she was moved out of their home and into their kennels with other dogs, I have no idea what she went through before getting her but the way she is so afraid of both collar/lead and the car leads me to believe she was majorly stressed and forced into being shown when she shouldn't have.

 

I don't want to put our girl to sleep but I would like to hopefully get her to a stage where we can have visitors without her getting so wound up by it.  We have worked so hard to build her confidence from how she was, I am in no hurry to give up but I can only afford so much, not because I don't want to.

We have already spent thousands on her between desexing, dentals, scopes, palate surgery, biopsies, medications, chiro, etc and that doesn't even include all the basics so it's not like we wont spend money on them if we have it.