gillybob Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 I am now mowing nearly every week to keep my lawn down and I divided my yard into two parts, one that is wild and one that is tidy. When I take the dogs down to the other wilder yard they are always on lead. They have to be anyway Cedro will climb my nearly 7 foot fence! I usually walk them down there in the hottest part of the day when all the snakes are under cover. Ive only seen a few in the 8 years Ive been here, there are so many better places for snakes to go, I have a creek one door down and paddocks on two sides. But, I do have a yard full of lizards with no tails, Cedro is hard on lizards. I wish he wasn't but he is a hound and has to follow his nose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Best Dogs! Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) There is snake avoidance training being held in Melbourne. I'd enquiring about it for Thistle being she is inclined to approach wildlife with murderous intent: December 10th and 17th. Facebook link The trainers are approved and licensed by the by the Department of Environment, Land, Water and Planning for anyone concerned about legalities. Live snakes are used. Edited October 31, 2017 by Thistle the dog December not November Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Kisses Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 How are they doing the training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossumCorner Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 PK there was a reference to it in one of the alpaca or poultry groups, with photos, and apparently they 'just' use a shock collar, zap the dog when it gets close and said in general it only takes one go, dog will not approach snake again. It's probably a good idea for some dogs, I know it wouldn't work with young Rheneas, nor would I have considered it with either Piper or Frodo (rest in peace you two, look after the bits of my heart you took with you). But that's just a nerve thing with these doggies, I know it would be great for some, but I'd have to pass on it. Relying on being around if a snake is close, and a good 'leave it' response is not as good as it once was now that Rheneas is 14 and losing sight and hearing. I do worry about the big brown snake that cruises by the chook pen now and then with a nose out for mice, but touch wood he/she has never seemed aggressive, just wants to hide if accidentally 'sprung'. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Kisses Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/18_5/features/Snake-Aversion-Without-Shock_21208-1.html https://www.facebook.com/4pawsuniversity/photos/a.137573622069.109578.49741042069/10154509155157070/?type=3 Edited October 31, 2017 by Papillon Kisses 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Snake avoidance is an interesting topic. I would like to tackle it practically in the future, but seem to be forever planning to launch projects and I only have time to launch about a fifth of them. This one is high on my list, though! Particularly because I am trail running all year 'round with a small, highly alert dog that chases critters. Recalls have served us well with dogs and snakes in the past, but we live in fear of the day we don't see the snake in time. I don't really trust any of the current methods used by most trainers, whether they are aversive or positive reinforcement-based. I question if you can learn to avoid something without the appropriate negative emotional state associated with a noxious stimulus. Having said that, I would not go down the route of snake = shock, either. It is crude and risky IMO. I have one dog at least who I suspect I could transform from curious about snakes to actively attacking snakes with that approach. He's a cattle driving dog. His solution to things he doesn't like is to drive them away. Often with his teeth. I think for avoidance training to be humane, the animal should be first set up with the skills to turn an aversive stimulus off. That way, we hopefully retain a thinking animal once the snakes are brought out. That should minimise incorrect associations, avoid panicked responses, and give us plenty to positively reinforce and a dog that knows what they are doing and why. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Best Dogs! Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) I am expecting it is with a collar, although they have not replied to my query yet to confirm if it is, their methods or if i can attend the training i am thinking deeply and would not make any decisions lightly Edited October 31, 2017 by Thistle the dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossumCorner Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Thistle I guess it would not be acceptable, but I'd like to attend a session without a dog (as an observer). Before committing to booking a session, paying my $300-ish, and then feeling pressure on the day as to whether to 'continue or withdraw' and making the wrong decision either way. A few comments from the fellow who put his dog through the training are on the Kyneton Buy,Swap and Sell fb group. Looks like they are going to have a repeat training day there for others interested. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Best Dogs! Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 That'd be good to read, could you link me? being so close to a water bird reserve, snakes are on my mind more often than not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossumCorner Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Here's the fb link - you might need to join the group, but if so they are quick to respond - and it's quick to 'un-join'. https://www.facebook.com/groups/123414681051780/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Hmm..in the past , I have used a bucket of water , a dead snake .... and the surprise factor . It ended with dogs doing a wide detour , wherever snake was placed .... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossumCorner Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Sounds good, did you think it had an on-going effect with live snakes? Maybe a power shot water pistol might work as well? I don't think I'd be very accurate with a water bucket (more of it would be on me than the dog). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 I think it did do good .. they tended to be a lot more wary around lizards ..... snakes do have a scent ... I suppose dogs can smell "snake" on a body , too ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Best Dogs! Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 19 hours ago, PossumCorner said: Here's the fb link - you might need to join the group, but if so they are quick to respond - and it's quick to 'un-join'. https://www.facebook.com/groups/123414681051780/ Neat thanks PC. Looks like a different company? I'm talking with the other snake avoidance person about potential scenarios such as keeping any strange people really out of the picture to reduce it backfiring, explaining thistle is a non hesitating successful murderer and i'd feel really bad if she killed one of the snakes so what kind of snake safety.... The training itself will be done in a park, but the dogs have time beforehand to warm up and get used to the collar. i have asked to come along and watch a session to see the set ups and timing. they're amendable to it but now we have to find a time i am not working! one of the ppl at training last night had done the avoidance training before, not with the person i am discussing. they had one dog who was really surprised by the shock and another who blinked and shooked himself. she zapped herself on the setting the dogs would get too, i think that's a good idea i might get that done. she said it was comparable to old farm electric fencing. have to go to work now. oh there are 8 snakes and some lizards to see if they generalise. hoping we are the "only need one zap and dog avoids the rest" situation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnsinger Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Do you have a snake problem? Worried about your dogs? So were we! Here is our experts - How to build a "SNAKE FENCE " advice! After losing a beloved dog that was bitten by a tiger snake on our property, which has a water course running through it, ( she killed it and it killed her,) we decided that we needed a 'snake proof - fenced area' around the house for our other pets ( and us!) We consulted a qualified, SNAKE EXPERT, who looked at our property and advised on the type of snakes we have in our area ( tigers' and red bellied blacks - both highly poisonous) , and the problems ( ie: Snakes can climb trees and drop off extended branches/ snakes can climb brick walls/ snakes can climb roughened concrete walls / snakes can climb wooden fences, and 6 ft high palling fences, they can certainly get through chicken wire and dog wire fences, and certainly lattice and post and rail fences, and will climb through anything they can fit through!. But he took all that into account and came up with a good design!! This was what he advised, and what we built.: The snake fence MUST be a MINIMUM of 1.25 metres high from the ground. (Preferably 1.5 metres high) It MUST be set into the ground by at least 12 centimetres. The snake expert prescribed a hard wood ( as this lasts almost forever) frame with rows of planks (16 cms wide and 2 cms thick, ) along the TOP, AND the same row of planks along the BOTTOM, and set 12 cms into the ground at the bottom, ( so 4 cms of the bottom row of planks showing above ground) and both of these rows are joining hardwood upright posts 8 x 8 cms square, set deep in concrete into the ground, every 1.5 to 2 metres or so. Then purpose specific "SNAKE AND MOUSE WIRE" (very fine, and very STRONG, smooth mesh, and readily available from hardware and fencing suppliers,- DO NOT substitute it with ANYTHING else!) MUST be cut to overlap the edges of the frame by about half the width of the fame ( 8 cms) and well tacked at ONE CM intervals, onto the hardwood frame, top AND bottom, and around thinner (4 x 4 cms) uprights that are joined - flush to the the upright posts, on both sides of each post, with absolutely no gaps anywhere! We also had two gates specially made, of the same height - also with "snake and mouse wire" - each, set onto a metal frame for each of the gates, and a a strip of concrete as wide as the gate,set into ground, along the width of the gates on the ground, and a rubber strip that closes the gate at the bottom, and is hard, flush up against the concrete strip or floor at ground level. The fence MUST also have a cleared area of 1-2 metres of cleared short grass, with no trees overhanging this area, on both sides of the fence! First we cut a swath through the trees, to create the cleared area, and planted grass to maintain this. Then we had a professional fence builder build the fence to the above specifications. High, brick window ledges ( you could construct one of any material) that comes out from the house, over a foot wide, and acts as a barrier- preventing a snake from climbing the brick house wall to get over the fence, on each side where the fence meets the house, completes the snake proof fence. ( ie: A snake could climb the side of the brick house, but when it meets the window ledge, it cannot hang on to the wall AND get over the ledge- so it drops off.) So far we think it is working very well, as we have seen snakes try to climb it and give up. This all cost us about $7,000- ( AUS) to cover an area about 30 metres square, on three sides with the house on the third side, and the fence joins the house on both sides. ( Not cheap! - but it is worth it for the peace of mind! The alternative options for us were moving house or not having pets. The first option - even more expensive and the second- unthinkable. If we had not had pets, the snakes would not have worried us too much, as generally snakes will avoid people and are not aggressive, and if you are very careful and aware of where you walk and put your feet, and do not leave piles of stuff and potential housing or food sources for them, around, you are most likely to be safe, - but dogs tend to take a different view- either being far too curious, or feeling they must defend you - as their beloved owner, - and your territory - from all comers- including snakes. ) Hope this advice helps you! Oh - and btw- at first, we also asked the snake expert about vibrating electric snake repeller's ( put into the ground at intervals) - that are supposed to keep snakes away. He said he had seen snakes SITTING on them! ( Probably getting a nice massage!) So don't be fooled into that idea either! If you have a snake problem - Good luck !! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I've taken the ultimate snake cure: I've moved to New Zealand. I still have that residual gut fear reaction every time I see a snakie-looking branch or bit of hose in the grass. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talking dog Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) On 31/10/2017 at 2:24 PM, Papillon Kisses said: https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/18_5/features/Snake-Aversion-Without-Shock_21208-1.html I ask myself why do they show a dog on leash in the picture when promoting positive reinforcement only training? can't be to apply force and pull the dog away from the snake, or even jerk the leash a little bit if the dog approaches the snake? By all means, they state that it works, so why don't they train their dogs off-leash? Fact is that 99.9% of the dog owners use aversives and force all the time, but we are so brainwashed (classical conditioning works not only for dogs) that we ignore it (today aversives and dogs equals BIG NO NO). All the four quadrants are used effectively by mother nature for thousands of years, and your dog encounters them anyway: first bee sting (o.k., let's take this humming creatures from the fun list), patches of bindis (better avoid this spot the next time), getting shaken in the crate in a car (bloody hell, next time I want to walk) and so on. However, because it is too "painful" for us putting us into a position where we are responsible for inflicted pain in our beloved creatures, we just don't want to know about it. IMO, responsible dog owners will use aversive and positive and negative punishments, and negative reinforcement, for the sake of the animal if this is the shortest and most efficient way. Those scenarios are rare, and 99% of the active training can be done with focus on positive reinforcement, but the other scenarios still exist. Wrt e-collar: e-collars are actually a really good tool in the box for snake avoidance training as they not only inflict pain (doesn't have to be big) like jerking or pulling a leash, but also renders the muscles uncontrollable for the dog. If you pull, or jerk or let the dog pull: here is actually a far bigger risk that this kind of training gets pear-shaped (and we see it all the time!) as the dog can still use the muscles and all he learns is that if he pulls harder fighting the aversive he wins. If you zap a dog while he is approaching a snake, for a fraction of the second he feels a) the inflicted pain, and b) loss of muscle control - even if he wants to redirect his aggression caused by the pain towards the snake, he just can't do it. Hence it is very effective, short and if done properly the dog will never link it to the owner, but only to the scenario with the snake. All other aversives, shouting, tension in leash, jerking, are linked to the owner. So if you really want to do snake avoidance training just by positive reinforcement without any aversives, please do it off leash, otherwise you are just another hypocrite. Edited January 22, 2018 by talking dog added text 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talking dog Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 https://clickertraining.com/node/988 It is good to see that more and more trainers / schools with a "purely positive" reputation are trying to get the jinn back into the bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottsmum Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 8 hours ago, sandgrubber said: I've taken the ultimate snake cure: I've moved to New Zealand. I still have that residual gut fear reaction every time I see a snakie-looking branch or bit of hose in the grass. Yes! I still get jeebies when I walk through snake areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Best Dogs! Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) Talking dog - perhaps could make own thread to discuss your concerns about training methods? The topic for this thread is about snakes and assorted snake avoidance training. Personally I am tracking this thread so generally I hope it is information relating to snakes, snake spotting, snake prevention or snake avoidance training. 15 hours ago, Dawnsinger said: Then purpose specific "SNAKE AND MOUSE WIRE" (very fine, and very STRONG, smooth mesh, and readily available from hardware and fencing suppliers,- DO NOT substitute it with ANYTHING else!) MUST be cut to overlap the edges of the frame by about half the width of the fame ( 8 cms) and well tacked at ONE CM intervals, onto the hardwood frame, top AND bottom, and around thinner (4 x 4 cms) uprights that are joined - flush to the the upright posts, on both sides of each post, with absolutely no gaps anywhere! We also had two gates specially made, of the same height - also with "snake and mouse wire" - each, set onto a metal frame for each of the gates, and a a strip of concrete as wide as the gate,set into ground, along the width of the gates on the ground, and a rubber strip that closes the gate at the bottom, and is hard, flush up against the concrete strip or floor at ground level. The fence MUST also have a cleared area of 1-2 metres of cleared short grass, with no trees overhanging this area, on both sides of the fence! This is very helpful, thank you! Most my fences meet your height descriptions there, all bordered with cement but gaps in some locations and while I cannot force my neighbours to clear their side of the fence, the name of the wire to look out is helpful to know! Previously only seen wires recommended that trap the snake - killing the snake and providing risk to us while it is trapped. Not desired! So just the name of the wire to keep them out that I can set around our boundaries would hopefully reduce the amount of snakes (and bluetongues) making their way into our yard and hopefully go somewhere else... Edited January 22, 2018 by Thistle the dog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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