channysworld Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Hi, I have an almost 7month old Japanese spitz puppy. He's really friendly with strangers and other dogs, however I noticed when he got to about 6 months of age he's become aggressive towards puppies younger than him. He loves to meet other dogs so he'll always run up to them and with older dogs we never have any problems with him. But when he gets close and they're younger pups he gets on top of them and pins them down and growls, snaps and thrashes. He's definitely not playing. He's never actually bit any of them but traumatizes the poor pups. It's happened to every pup we've met since he got to 6 months which is about 7 times now and it's been completely unprovoked from the other puppy. Since I noticed the trend I try and leash him before they got close and then slowly take him near to see how he responds but I don't always get to him in time and then usually the owners or pup get scared and don't want to come near him. This is the only kind of aggression I've seen him exhibit, other than that he's the sweetest pup. Does anyone have any ideas what's causing it or how I can address it? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 I have been running training classes - pups and adults for over 25 years. What you have is a teenager... he is basically behaving like a spoilt brat... he knows he can get away with it with younger pups but he is a bit more careful with the older dogs... for now anyway.... You need to BLOCK this behaviour... he needs boundaries.... There is nothing wrong with saying NO... and I don't care what the Politically Correct 100% positive reinforced trainers want to say or object to when I say this. We are starting to create a society that brings up children and now dogs without respect and boundaries. Creating boundaries is not about hitting the dog... it is being firm and determined. I have dealt with many situations of this nature and experience will always beat the book theory. If you don't create better manners now he is going to start to push the line with older dogs as well. You may also find that he can start to get snarky about kids being in his space.... Best of luck and any problems if need be scoot around and find a trainer who can help your dog learn good manners with all different dogs. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitz Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Since I'm sure you woudnt be ok with an older dog doing this to your puppy, I'm shocked you allowed this to happen 7times. You need to stop letting your dog run amok until his recall is good enough you don't have to "try" and get him on leash. He should never be off leash somewhere there might be a target until you have fixed the behaviour. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juice Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Why the hell is he offlead when he attacks other pups ! It's not fair on them and you know he does it , keep him on a lead till you have better control . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karen15 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I would be teaching a leave it command. I don't agree with No as it really doesn't mean anything. Leave it means leave whatever you are going towards and return to heel. Really handy to stop them eating something before you get to it, running off after something or in this case, leave little pups alone. You really need to control your dog so it doesn't traumatise other dogs. At this stage I would say it should be on lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I would disagree. Leave it and No are both verbal cues. They mean nothing unless you train it. You could say "bananas" and have the same effect. I would be absolutely keeping this dog on leash, putting buckets of value into recalls and engagement PLUS doing counter conditioning with other puppies/dogs. I would suggest that a decent trainer is necessary to help your timing, management and use of reinforcement. "Why" the dog is doing this now is a moot point. I can't read dogs minds even with years of study and practical experience. So I don't waste my time. I just ask "what have I got? What do I want?" 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roova Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) Regarding this sentence "I don't care what the Politically Correct 100% positive reinforced trainers want to say or object to when I say this. We are starting to create a society that brings up children and now dogs without respect and boundaries. Creating boundaries is not about hitting the dog... it is being firm and determined" I just wanted to say positive reinforcement based training does not mean permissive! There are of course boundries and behavioural expectations. As Karen15 said using no as a training tool is risky as it doesn't teach an alternative behaviour. Much like telling no to a growling dog..it is more likely to lead straight to a bite next time. Teaching the behaviours you want to see makes a lot more sense to future success. My second thought as others have said is why is he being allowed to meet and greet other dogs when his behaviour shows he can't always play appropriately? If he's allowed to rush every dog in the area its going to end badly at some point. Not just if he happens to approach a dog aggressive dog but also if he approaches one who has had previous bad experiences and the owner is protective. Dogs rushing my dog are my worst nightmare and all I see is an unruly untrained dog and dare I say ignorant owner. Please don't let him keep doing this and maybe have a read of this? "He just wants to say Hi" Definitely, definitely go with TSDs suggestion. Life is a lot easier and less stressful when you have control over your dog. Actually maybe check out some free training Susan Garrett is offering at the moment? Good opportunity to see the possibilities, good luck https://recallers.com/vip-guest-pass/ Edited September 13, 2017 by Roova 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 On 10/09/2017 at 8:40 AM, channysworld said: He loves to meet other dogs so he'll always run up to them and with older dogs we never have any problems with him. You may not have had any problems with him doing this, but you would have a major problem with me if you let your puppy run up to my fear reactive (but highly trained and managed) adult dog. Last thing he needs is rude dogs "just wanting to say Hi". And I spend a lot of time trying to teach my highly social now 6 months old BC pup that not every person and dog needs to meet her .. so she stays on leash unless we're having a carefully planned off lead play date one on one with a known dog and owner in an enclosed area ..or has some on leash play one on one with a known willing participant .. owner and dog. 6 hours ago, Roova said: I just wanted to say positive reinforcement based training does not mean permissive! There are of course boundries and behavioural expectations Yes!!! 6 hours ago, Roova said: Definitely, definitely go with TSDs suggestion. Life is a lot easier and less stressful when you have control over your dog. Actually maybe check out some free training Susan Garrett is offering at the moment? Good opportunity to see the possibilities, good luck https://recallers.com/vip-guest-pass Yes, yes, yes!!!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 I think you should get some savvy eyes on this dog. Sometimes dogs pick on easy targets because they can. It doesn't mean that they are being brats or that they're mean or lacking respect or any other of the labels we tend to put on them through our own lens of human values. Most of the time they are uncomfortable around many dogs, and they only show it overtly where it is "safe" for them to. It's not an uncommon pattern in my experience. Usually it's smaller and/or younger dogs that are targeted, but the dog often shows subtle signs of anxiety and conflict around bigger or older dogs as well. Dog owners miss them because they are very small signals. My first suspicion would be that this dog possibly doesn't love other dogs except for puppies. Another possibility is that he does at the moment, but what puppies do that trigger some dogs, older dogs sometimes do as well. If a puppy is triggering it at this age, it is probably going to spread to other dogs, even if you keep him away from puppies. So, get someone to check it out and figure out why he is doing this. There's a good chance you will be able to manage him safely and minimise the expression of this behaviour in future if you know what the function of it is. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karen15 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 the problem with No TSD (IMO) is that people use it for everything. Dog jumping NO, dog barking NO, dog chasing something NO, dog chewing shoe NO, dog pulling on lead NO, dog on couch NO, dog digging NO. In addition, by giving a command the human has to consider what behaviour they actually want in the current situation. It allows them to reward the dog for doing as requested. After No, what is the dog meant to do? It hasn't been given any guidance as to what is expected behaviour and what it picks is likely to be met with another No. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 I see your point but I guess I live in a whole other training world. My dogs are always given guidance and so are those owners and dogs who train with me. "No" or "leave it" simply become associated with the undesirable event and actually become a cue! Mr TSD left his dinner plate on the floor (go figure!) and I turned around to see my dogs making a CHOICE to not lick the plate. No worried faces, no commands, just dogs who have self control. It's not how I've always trained but it's how I will train forever more. It's more fun, more reliable and way less stressful for all of us! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
channysworld Posted September 25, 2017 Author Share Posted September 25, 2017 On 10/09/2017 at 11:28 PM, alpha bet said: I have been running training classes - pups and adults for over 25 years. What you have is a teenager... he is basically behaving like a spoilt brat... he knows he can get away with it with younger pups but he is a bit more careful with the older dogs... for now anyway.... You need to BLOCK this behaviour... he needs boundaries.... There is nothing wrong with saying NO... and I don't care what the Politically Correct 100% positive reinforced trainers want to say or object to when I say this. We are starting to create a society that brings up children and now dogs without respect and boundaries. Creating boundaries is not about hitting the dog... it is being firm and determined. I have dealt with many situations of this nature and experience will always beat the book theory. If you don't create better manners now he is going to start to push the line with older dogs as well. You may also find that he can start to get snarky about kids being in his space.... Best of luck and any problems if need be scoot around and find a trainer who can help your dog learn good manners with all different dogs. What would you recommend as the best way to deal with it? I leash him straight away and then depending on the owner/dog we either leave or i try to introduce him slowly and more controlled and scold him if he growls. Sometimes he is ok after and they play nicely but othertimes he wont stop growling so we leave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
channysworld Posted September 25, 2017 Author Share Posted September 25, 2017 It took a while before i figured out what the trend was for the behavioir. I only off leash him in designated areas and i always check out whos there before i let him off now. If i see someone coming with a pup i ask them to wait for me to leash him but they often don't listen and sometimes i don't get him in time. Do you guys expect dogs to not run up to each other in the dog park?? Whenever a dog enters they all come to investigate the newcomer.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
channysworld Posted September 25, 2017 Author Share Posted September 25, 2017 On 13/09/2017 at 8:28 PM, The Spotted Devil said: I would disagree. Leave it and No are both verbal cues. They mean nothing unless you train it. You could say "bananas" and have the same effect. I would be absolutely keeping this dog on leash, putting buckets of value into recalls and engagement PLUS doing counter conditioning with other puppies/dogs. I would suggest that a decent trainer is necessary to help your timing, management and use of reinforcement. "Why" the dog is doing this now is a moot point. I can't read dogs minds even with years of study and practical experience. So I don't waste my time. I just ask "what have I got? What do I want?" How would you counter condition ithis? I figured understanding why would help with trying to stop the behavior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
channysworld Posted September 25, 2017 Author Share Posted September 25, 2017 On 14/09/2017 at 3:44 PM, corvus said: I think you should get some savvy eyes on this dog. Sometimes dogs pick on easy targets because they can. It doesn't mean that they are being brats or that they're mean or lacking respect or any other of the labels we tend to put on them through our own lens of human values. Most of the time they are uncomfortable around many dogs, and they only show it overtly where it is "safe" for them to. It's not an uncommon pattern in my experience. Usually it's smaller and/or younger dogs that are targeted, but the dog often shows subtle signs of anxiety and conflict around bigger or older dogs as well. Dog owners miss them because they are very small signals. My first suspicion would be that this dog possibly doesn't love other dogs except for puppies. Another possibility is that he does at the moment, but what puppies do that trigger some dogs, older dogs sometimes do as well. If a puppy is triggering it at this age, it is probably going to spread to other dogs, even if you keep him away from puppies. So, get someone to check it out and figure out why he is doing this. There's a good chance you will be able to manage him safely and minimise the expression of this behaviour in future if you know what the function of it is. He doesn't go after smaller dogs just younger (big or small). Small older dogs he's well behaved. I'll research on the signals. He does love other dogs and loves to play with them, a few occasions we've bumped into the same dogs and when he was once aggressive he wasnt this time and they played together nicely. This was closely monitored and the owner was also aware. Yea im worried as he gets older there will be more and more dogs that trigger this for him. Any recommendations on someone? That is what im hoping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuralPug Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 I'm just curious @channysworld How old was your spitz puppy when you first brought him home? Have you discussed this problem with his breeder and, if so, what advice did they give you? Did I miss it or have you mentioned what area of NSW that you live in, so that people can recommend a behaviourist for you? Good on you for trying to get on top of the problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogsAndTheMob Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, channysworld said: Do you guys expect dogs to not run up to each other in the dog park?? Whenever a dog enters they all come to investigate the newcomer.. I wouldn't exercise a Japanese Spitz in a dog park. A large dog could kill him in seconds. Edited September 25, 2017 by DogsAndTheMob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 (edited) On 14/09/2017 at 3:44 PM, corvus said: If a puppy is triggering it at this age, it is probably going to spread to other dogs, even if you keep him away from puppies. So, get someone to check it out and figure out why he is doing this. There's a good chance you will be able to manage him safely and minimise the expression of this behaviour in future if you know what the function of it is. YES. Why is he allowed the opportunity ? Dogs don't need to go to dog parks . really . he can have plenty of exercise and fun with you .... and learn all sorts of things He can socialise with known dogs , and enjoy company that way I do hope you can be recommended a good professional to help you both. Edited September 25, 2017 by persephone 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
channysworld Posted September 26, 2017 Author Share Posted September 26, 2017 17 hours ago, RuralPug said: I'm just curious @channysworld How old was your spitz puppy when you first brought him home? Have you discussed this problem with his breeder and, if so, what advice did they give you? Did I miss it or have you mentioned what area of NSW that you live in, so that people can recommend a behaviourist for you? Good on you for trying to get on top of the problem! We actually got him from a friend of a friend. I live in Sydney area and don't mind travelling a bit for a good behaviourist. Thanks, i really want to try and nip it in the bud, before it gets any worse. Actually, the more i was thinking about it and where it could be stemming from... My parents have a small dog and she's really scared of him because he's so big and playful. She used to just snap at him when she had enough to put him in his place, but I noticed she's started going out of her way to snap at him even when he's doing his own thing away from her. Do you think he could have picked up this behaviour from her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Kisses Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 32 minutes ago, channysworld said: I live in Sydney area and don't mind travelling a bit for a good behaviourist. Excellent! CREATURE TEACHER Dr. Melissa Starling aka @corvus http://www.creatureteacher.com.au 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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