Puppy to Dog interaction

[KobiD]

My dear puppy 10 months old now, has always been a social retard in the presence of others (both people and dogs).

 

She is overly enthusiastic. I've been busy working within her thresholds and rewarding for calm behaviour since 8 weeks old. I have her to the point where we can be close to other dogs, and she will remain calm and focussed, but the drive to rush to them remains. In some instances she's ok and she'll be very polite in how she greets, but in others she just doesn't settle. In writing this, I think I have answered my question, that I simply should not let her meet until she is calm.

 

A couple times I've let her off leash to approach in her own manner to ensure that it's not the leash/being restricted that is causing the added excitement. Generally this results in her rushing up on the other dogs who then correct her. The other owners are always aware before this happens, I wouldn't let her do it to just any dog. I have no problem with them giving her a correction either, however she doesn't really seem to learn from it.. Sometimes she'll bounce up and rush in to play again. During these episodes she displays clearly submissive behaviour, however I feel if she gave a few of these signs before she was in the other dogs face I'm sure all would be well.

 

After the initial tiff she does seem to settle more, and show some more caution in her approach.. until next time.

 

The times other dogs have come off leash (unplanned) to her, she is totally different and much more reserved.

 

I'd like to be able to have her greet nicely and remain calm. It may be that I need to continue with on leash and reward (which has improved drastically) and only allow closer greetings when she is calm. She's at 10 months now and is starting to settle down a bit overall.

[KobiD]

I've done a bit of reading regarding reactivity as well, where I've got a lot of ideas for how to work with her in a controlled manner.

 

It isn't really reactivity in the traditional sense that she wants to lunge/charge/put on an offence. She is not fearful of encounters. For instance, she will lay down willingly next to me, with a dog not far away.. however she is very driven to rush up to the other dog to play, say hello. She's very much the same with people. At a certain distance (varies depending on energy level and interest) she will decide she wants to go! Usually I hold my ground. No verbal correction. Just wait.. and then reward the moment she turns back and puts focus on me again.

 

She's worlds better than she was though, where she'd be on the opposite footpath and see a dog and want to pull over, to now she'll happily do it with a dog on the other side. She'll let dogs walk past on the same side. In some instances she's greeted on leash and she's usually a mix between confident and fearful. I guess you could call it cautious. Then with other dogs the excitement is just too much.. I'll keep working at it.

[KobiD]

No-one?

 

Yesterday afternoon we were out walking and another larger log off leash approached quite playfully. Our puppy thought she'd been had scampering around yelping and throwing all sorts of submissive signs. Eventually she calmed down a bit and we continued on. 

 

This morning we were approached by 2 smaller dogs on leash. They came together calmly, had a sniff, and then my dog wanted to play, excited barking etc (she does this to my parents dog when she wants to continue play, usually after they've both slowed down after a couple hours together). She was submissive in this greeting in that she had the tail partially tucked and stayed close to me as opposed to pulling forward. 

 

I feel like she's torn between being not sure of the other dogs and how they'll react and her own excitement and wanting to play. I continue to reward positive behaviour, ability to listen and when she puts focus on me. We pass many more dogs than we stop to greet as I don't want to form the habit where every time she see's another of her kind that she needs to go and say hello. 

[persephone]

have you read the blogs on the K9 PRO site ? 

This one may be of interest  
http://blog.k9pro.com.au/socialise-now-play-later/

 

[KobiD]

Thanks perse..

 

I have read that in the past, and again since too.

 

I don't have any real intention for her to actively play with other dogs. My view probably reflects Steve (k9pros) where I'd like my dog to be impartial.. and to a large degree she is.

 

We can easily walk past houses where dogs will bark and her through their fences and she won't even stumble. We can walk up to said fences and she'll focus on me ignoring the other dog on the other side. We can move past other dogs on the street with their owners without too much hassle. Sometimes she'll be a little too aroused, but that's expected as a puppy still. She's much better than she was several months ago.

 

I guess my goal is not particularly for her to be able to 'play' with other dogs. I would like her to understand social etiquette. To approach, read some body language herself, introduce and then we can explore possibilities of moving on or engaging in some play etc. At this stage (and it may be a developmental thing) she doesn't seem to have any grasp on this. She tends to go to all out.. either right up in their faces wanting to play (which most dogs don't like clearly) or right on the submissive.

 

I think it's just more time, and more practicing, more rewarding.  On the whole we have made progress, but every now and then it feels like you take a couple steps backwards before you go forward again.  

[Tassie]

Been away .. sorry.    What I'm doing with my social butterfly/over-enthusiastic greeter of both people and dogs, is just keeping her leashed (unless it's for a planned and organised play date in a confined space with pone other known and tolerant dog.)  If she's being right OTT, we just turn and go .. oh dear, so sad.   If she's only part way OTT, I'll use treats to help her make good decisions, then depending on the situation, she may be allowed to greet.   I'll usually remind her to be gentle, and polite, and verbally reward her and give her permission to continue  It's a long slow process .  But it does work.  

 

Pippa's almost 6 months now, and after being away travelling and attending agility trials and staying in dog friendly accommodation for a couple of weeks, she seems to have done some growing up.  Took her a walk this morning in a fairly busy shopping area and she was so much better than she was the last time we walked there 4 weeks ago.  She probably made her own decisions not to approach people about 50% of the time, and with only a little bit of encouragement most of the rest of the time.    She was also fpretty happy about waiting to the side a few times when the footpath was too narrow to pass.  Progress!

 

Of course, when she hits that teenage age, which your pup is now, it could all need doing over.

[KobiD]

Always a solid response Tassie; worth waiting for. 

 

I agree completely regarding the long slow process, however reflecting back on the behaviour as a whole surely does show gradual improvement. I've really tried to step up the training and use higher distractions and drive to proof her behaviours. Keeping at threshold (usually distance) allows her to build confidence and see less value in dogs. When she's overwhelmed she becomes a bit unsure. Wants to move forward but does so in a passive/submissive manner.. or simply put's on a bluff and barks a bit. I just keep trying to reward the behaviour I like and limit what I don't.

 

This morning we were moving past a garden bed. There was a dog poo in a black bag in there. The scent and/or visual spooked her. Hackles up, barking and fixated. To me an opportunity to build her and some behaviours. She would still listen to an extent so went into a sit stay. I dropped the leash and went to have a look myself, and then invited her over for a closer look. She had a sniff and then we continued on. Funny the little things that can set them off. 

[Tassie]

It is, isn't it.       My puppy spooked at a metal irrigation connection when we were walking in an old orchard while we were away ... same deal .. my grown dog and I went to investigate it and talk to it and touch it .. and she came over in her own time .... we passed it on the next walk, and she went straight over to check it out.

[corvus]

A lot of young dogs have a fierce need to interact with other dogs. It usually settles down when they hit social maturity, but I have met some dogs for whom it did not, and usually the reason why is unusual levels of frustration, either from deprivation (the dog has not had their social needs met as a youngster and has come to be crazy frustrated about always missing out) or from an expectation of crazy full-on fun (e.g. dog park regulars). For frustrated greeters, I usually concentrate on reducing the frustration of not getting to greet by having the handler provide plenty of engagement and reinforcers so the dog learns that missing out on greeting is not horrific. 

[KobiD]

Thanks corvus.

 

She's coming into 11 months old this month. She hasn't had a lot of exposure to greetings as she has always become so excited (either pulling, or barking).. and off leash she would simply rush in too fast and upset the other dogs.. as such I have simply worked to calm her and it does appear to be working but has been a long process.

 

We're now at a point where she can begin to work on greeting without the reactivity and she's showing that she isn't as confident as she'd like everyone to believe. She is however building confidence with each interaction that is positive. Short quick, on leash greetings and then move on before excitement levels peak. 

 

I've also been heavily reinforcing when we see dogs on our walks. Simply stopping and allowing her to watch. When she looks back at me I treat in succession. Stop and let it happen again. More often than not she's starting to see more value in sticking close vs going to other dogs. 

[corvus]

My theory is they are eager to interact because they have so much to learn. They know the basics from early life, but lots of dogs have all different kinds of preferred signals and interaction styles. They kind of have to do it to learn it, because interactions are dynamic and they need to have a good understanding of how their behaviour affects outcomes. Aiming for moderate arousal is a good idea, because it enables them to be more aware of the smaller signals dogs might be giving them. Lots of dogs that habitually have only high-arousal interactions with other dogs end up proactively defensive, because they trigger disciplinary action but don't know when or why because they were too excited to see the warning signs. If they can't predict when they will get in trouble, they become anxious and tend to strike out before the other dog can get offended. I see this A LOT, and the pattern looks like a dog that is interested in other dogs and may even be eager to greet, but about 3 seconds into the greeting, they tense up and snap at the other dog. Owners are bewildered. Why does the dog try to greet and then snap? Probably because they are anticipating trouble but don't understand how to avert it. I would stick to the 3-second greetings, but let her return to the dog if the opportunity is there. Chances are, she's not really done after 3-seconds. Leaving her in a state where she barely got started all the time may lead to frustration and feed the arousal issue. My youngster gets pretty conflicted about other dogs, but likes to greet. I let her greet if she is not barking and pulling, and if we have the luxury, I encourage her to come back to me, cuddles and treats, then let her return to the dog for another go, then call her back again, more cuddles, back to the dog... Until she is happy to move on and is not looking over her shoulder or trying to walk backwards. 

[KobiD]

As always it's one step forwards, two backwards. and three sideways.

 

Yesterday was a rather frustrating day in general. She was just being a bit silly and acting out. I was off night shift, tired, and a less tolerant than normal. The whole family was home, visitors came by, etc which all added to everything being a bit more busy than normal too.

 

Morning walk she did OK, but wasn't particularly listening and a little challenging.

 

After dinner I tried to get some fresh air for me and finish the day on a positive, so we went off for a walk. Hit the park near by and there were a heap of young fellas having a bit of a party, kickin a few footies around and being roudy. No issues but it was a noticable distraction. Keeping distance from them then put us inline with a small group of people with 2 x smaller dogs. Ours saw them and in her aroused stated threw her hackles up and started barking. Mind you she wasn't listening well before that, and wasn't likely to listen any further at that stage so I picked her up and moved into some open area. We started again with some behaviours and making some progress until the lady and her 2 dogs felt the need to come and 'socialise' our dog. Managed to cut us off across the field, bail us up, and then proceed to say poor dog, did you get her from a shelter, must have been abused, you should medicate her..  given the day I'd had it took some real will power not to say what I was thinking...

 

After they left she settled again (thanks for nothing lady) and we moved on. Frustrated towards the dog still I just wanted to get home. I wasn't feeling like positively reinforcing anything anymore and tbh would have been happy enough to drag her home. Few not so kind words to the dog and we moved on though. Another local approached on the other side of the road. Put my dog into a sit and rewarded for good behaviour. She happily say as the other young pup passed by and us owners had a quick how do ya do. 

 

It's very touch and go. I think she warms to other dogs she recognises and knows 'the game''. New dogs she gets apprehensive and unsure and needs space to acclimate to their presence. It would be great if others respected this. 

 

This morning I was still a bit frustrated, but we went out. Passed another on the street with no issues (one we pass most mornings). Passed another she has greeted last week; but kept distance. Not a perfect example of calmness, but she didn't lose it. Passed several people no problems. Another little old friend of hers she stayed very calm with, and was rewarded with a quick play while still on leash. Lots of play bows and no pulling, which then rewarded with off leash work. Left with them both off leash and both doing there own thing. She sat in a sit stay while I went and said hello to another couple local dogs through a fence. She then came over to say hello. High energy but positive, and moved away on cue. Rewarded by walking the rest of the way home off leash with loads of treats for checking in. 

 

Thinking back on last night, we got her at 8 weeks from a shelter. She hasn't been abused or mistreated. She was socialised from the moment I got her, out in the neighbourhood seeing things. She started with the reactive barking by 12 weeks,, most noticable when she went in to the vets for her shots. Carried on like a pork chop. It makes me wonder at what age she was separated from her mother.. could explain a few of the issues we've faced with her. Smart, but challenging little dog. She's very much a bonded. She likes to stay near by, loves to cuddle on the lap, but isn't very physically driven for pats. Sights, smells, and most of all edibles are her drives.   

[corvus]

I think it's totally normal for an alert working dog of that age. If it's any reassurance, my podengo only really started to move away from this same unpredictable business at about 14 months old. From about 7-14 months, it was just train the dog you have in front of you now. She was inconsistent and extremely emotionally reactive sometimes, and I was never really sure what dog I was going to be walking when I left the house. We have been doing flyball for most of that time, and when I was asked how she was doing and where she was at, most of the time I was like "Eh, who knows what she's doing and where she's at. Let's find out and go from there." It's wearing at times, but you've got to get your zen on and wait for them to grow a grown-up brain. She is nearly 2, now, and we still have bumpy ones, just fewer of them. She still fires up at dogs if they surprise her sometimes, but other times she handles it. She's just learning. She is a super alert, proactive little girl, and she has a lot to learn about what is okay and what is truly worrying and what she can do about it. The big switch at about 14 months was a relief. Suddenly she could do a bunch of stuff I'd been trying for months to get her doing. There was a very noticeable change in her ability to think through arousal. One day she just couldn't and seemingly the next day she could. 

[KobiD]

That's very reassuring! Great point about working with the dog you have in front of you too. Have to remember that although the last months have seen some major growth that mentally she's still got a fair bit of learning to do...

[Tassie]

And you know what, she'll still be learning when she's well and truly an adult.   says the voice of experience.

 

Great reminder @corvus about training the dog in front of you, and adjust your plan according to that ... but also to the physical and emotional state of the handler on the day, as that will be felt by the dog.    So that may mean abandoning any pre-set plan, or usual things, and just going with what you feel you can cope with on the day.  So there'll be days when I'll deliberately avoid parks or places where there will be major distractions or concerns, if I'm not in a mood to deal with it.

 

@KobiD   .. I commend you for being able to contain yourself in dealing with the idiot woman.  I doubt I would have been as restrained in the circumstance.

 

[KobiD]

Swung past the same park again the next day, with the family and dog in toe. Same lady was there with her dog, albeit offering no advice or offers of socialisation this time. Things ran like clockwork. Released our dog to say hello to her usual friends through the fence. Let her have a play off leash chasing me around. Back on leash and closed the distance back close to the dog she was reactive towards and she wasn't even interested. Released her again to let her play. Didn't even approach the other dog. Got within about 2m to the other dog and ours was more interested in trying to dig cat turds out of the playground sand (another long standing challenge.. scavenger dog). 

 

More morning (and sometimes afternoon) walks. More positive experiences are building her confidence. One neighbours dog approached off leash this morning and she handled it well. Submissive but not overly fearful and no reactive behaviour following the greeting, just a nice big handfull of treats scattered. Next dog which she was unsure of a couple days ago she was happy to approach, and exchange some gentle sniffing. 

 

 

[Tassie]

What a great update!   Don't you love it when they take what seem to be quantum leaps in their understanding.    A tribute to the foundations you've been patiently laying..

[KobiD]

Still making good progress in public with both people and dogs. There is still the occasional interaction that she will be unsure of and get a bit reactive, mostly with unfamiliar dogs. On the whole she's moving forward though and learning to control her excitement much better. This morning after a nice controlled submissive greeting she was allowed to roam off leash with a neighbourhood dog. The other dog wasn't overly keen to play, despite mine verbally encouraging the other, the little collie just wanted her ball or people pats. It was good as mine had time to learn to calm and I'd reward her when she'd stop the barking to play. After both roaming around both owners independently it wasn't until we put them both back on leash that the play bow occurred so we made them settle again and released to play. They had a good scoot around without playing too rough.

 

More often than not though I'm simply working on teaching her to close the distance and remain calm. I think these positive encounters are doing wonders for her confidence though and she's starting to learn some of the rules.

 

Interestly, on the other hand I have noticed her starting to get a bit more protective in nature around the house. Very alert to any noises or neighbours dogs up against the fence line. She's very quick to throw the hackles up and get after it. At nearly 11 months I'd say it's her maturing some more. I just keep on with the same old same old. Call her back, ask for a few cues and then reward when she's settled.  

[KobiD]

Last night, we closed the distance down with a dog that she usually passes without issue. She was a bit fearful, and then hid behind my legs barking, while still being curious. I didn't make more distance, but just let her ride it out with rewards for the moments she'd settle or focus back on me. Will have to see what the net effect has been next time we pass this particular dog.

 

Today we went a different route for our morning walk. Realised I hadn't shown her horses in her socialisation period. She froze, to the point she wouldn't look away or take food. Made some distance and then rewarded again, but she still wasn't sure. I ended up powering past them on the opposite side of the road. She was still fearful but managed to keep moving. Rewarded heavily once past, and continued to work just at threshold. I think she'll be OK with some more practice. The sight, smells, and sounds were all new to her so understandable that she was taken back.

 

Couple more small dogs came up off leash later on. She offered a nice submissive greeting at their level, made some good choices and even had a little play on leash before moving on. We rewarded with some more smelling where they had been and the surrounding area. Waited out a while and they came back past a second time, this time without any greeting and some nice calm behaviour.

[Tassie]

All sounds good @KobiD..  I do the same sort of thing with my youngster, though I don't try to close the distance .. I'm usually doing the reverse.  cause she's a bit over-enthusiastic!    And if it's something she's worried about, I just let her find her safe distance and have a think, if it's safe.    She saw her first horse (in a neighbouring paddock) while we were on the mainland last month.   We were in a neighbouring paddock, so I just let her choose her own distance to watch from as she was behaving thoughtfully.   Over a couple of days, she ended up a few metres from the fence - young horse, so I wasn't going to push it.   Her urban/narrow footpath street walks are getting better each week .. she's able to be more attentive and keep a respectful distance if I ask her.   I did release her on a shortish lead, to a polite greeting with a leashed dog we met this morning .. checked with ownder first .. quick polite greeting, then they were both done .. thanked him, and walked on.   Good puppy.  Oh and she had a little startle about a noisy truck coming towards us in the left lane .. she watched it suspiciously after backing off from the road edge which she'd been nearer to, then relaxed as it went on by, and ignored the big bus in the next lane.