Too challenging for beginner

[KobiD]

I've just been reading around certain breeds and temperaments, and many times people will suggest certain breeds as being beginner friendly, and others not so. 

 

For those who have experience, what is it specifically that makes a dog more or less challenging? What traits or behaviours do you see with an easy dog? 

[KobiD]

A lot of this tends to revolve around the dominance theory, however on the other hand that has been shown to be debunked and isn't promoted by the positive reinforcement crowd. 

 

Is it simply that some particular dogs require more patience and consistency than others? And if that is the case, is it specifically a breed quality/temperament or just a character trait of a particular animal? 

[RuralPug]

My thoughts on easy breeds for beginners are  those breeds whose usual temperament does not easily lead to dog aggression (often cited as the breeds developed for dog fighting and some terrier breeds) or guarding against strangers (which may lead to human aggression) and who do not need great quantities of exercise and mental stimulation to avoid developing problem behaviours (most of the herding breeds and many of the gundogs and sledding breeds) and who are not so stubborn and independent that training them becomes a huge battle (terriers again, most of the spitz breeds and many of the hounds.)

To me an easy dog is one that always reliably responds to the reward - these dogs appear to be trying very hard to please their owner, which of course they are because that is the way to earn the treat, or tug game or whatever!

As temperament is basically 50% genetic and 50% environmental, there is always a bell curve within the breed  and you are going to occasionally see individuals that are at one extreme or the other. It is when you see many of a breed that you see the usual temperament.

With regards to easy breeds in the training area, I think that it really does depends on the trainer's style. Some trainers are not going to succeed with a traditionally easy breed that is "soft" if their body language is constantly expressing disappointment when results are not as is liked but they may deal brilliantly with one of the more stubborn breeds that are not so wound up with needing approval. I'm sure that there are many other examples people can think of.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think most people want a dog that is

• easy to house train (out go most of the little dogs and puppy mill specials)
• easy to recall or train to come when called (out go beagles and most of the spitz and sight hounds)
• peaceful and tolerant - ie not likely to bite no matter what (oh dear - no terriers)
• will stay with you and not chase moving things like cars, bikes, joggers... (out go most of the herding breeds

At this point there's not many dogs left.  And I usually recommend a gold fish.  Sometimes a greyhound - because there's usually no expectation of recall with these.

Some dogs are easier to forgive when they fail some of these criteria... like small dogs can often get away with poor toilet training and biting and they're not fast enough to catch cars/joggers etc.

Other dogs - when it goes to hell - they end up in rescue or worse.

Personally - I find the smarter the dog - the more likely it is to be training you - with a similar mind set to a toddler ie wants what it wants right now and does not always make the best decisions in its own best interest.   You can see that with dogs that charge and rush other dogs and people, dogs that steal food, fat dogs, and dogs that pee where they like.

Some dogs are much easier to train than others, some of the easiest dogs to train are the worst if you leave them to their own devices...  eg a greyhound can be quite difficult to train, but usually won't destroy more than the bin when left to amuse itself, a border collie can be very easy to train but will cause the most destruction if left to amuse itself.
 

It's owner choice - if owner does not want to train dogs - I try to recommend goldfish.

[KobiD]

That's kind of how I looked at it too. The biddable types, while easy to train are also much more reliant on their human. A dog with a bit of independence will be more at ease with being left alone for a while, but in turn is probably more inclined to question your requests rather than listen and follow blindly.

 

So what we're both saying is that there isn't really any easy breed. All breeds you could get lucky and get a dog that gels easier, or one that takes more input and pushes your buttons a bit more, but regardless it's a matter of what you put in, is what you get out?

[BarbedWire]

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Edited August 17, 2017 by sarsplodicus

[KobiD]

 Could it be that the lazy dogs are easier in the sense that they'd rather sleep than actively engage their environment when they are bored, and actively engage their owner when they are not.. where a more challenging (independent) dog is more likely to find a means of entertaining itself, be it wandering, chewing, digging.. etc?

 

 

[KobiD]

The reason I ask, is that my limited experience has shown some things our puppy has picked up and learnt easily, while others have taken a lot of hours of patience and practice and even then are still a work in progress. IE over excitement and impulse control with other dogs and the environment.

[BarbedWire]

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Edited August 17, 2017 by sarsplodicus

[The Spotted Devil]

For a novice owner I'd be recommending against breeds and, in particular, genetic LINES that have a strong genetic drive e.g. working Gundog, herding breeds, terriers, hounds.

 

I hear novice people saying all the time that they want a "smart dog". Um. No. You don't  

 

It does come down to the individual owner and, if they want a high energy, high drive, smart dog then they better know what to expect! And be prepared to put the work in.

[KobiD]

So you would say that it is intelligent dogs are the more challenging breeds?

 

Energy level and drive is quite variable too. In certain situations our puppy has endless drive and motivation. In others she is very casual.. I find it very difficult to shift her into and out of her drives. IE if she is very worked up it takes her a while to calm down again. That doesn't mean she doesn't follow cue. She does, but at a higher energy and rate. If she's chillin she's very much plod along and her following of cues is the same slow pace.

 

Just trying to get my head around it. It almost sounds as if all dogs are challenging and not for beginners, in one way or another.

[Dogsfevr]

I don't believe there is a such thing as an easy dog ,all require time & effort .The difference is the dedication the new owners are prepared to put in & i believe any first time owner can be suitable if they are getting a DOG  for the right reasons.

As someone who works in the animal industry i see people & dogs every day .Far to many lazy owners,far to many people buying a dog that will never ever fit there lifestyle or simply owners who think they know it all & don't care for advice .

 

Many people believe its there right to have a home with a dog in the yard ,for many owning a dog should never happen

 

 

[corvus]

Some traits and combinations thereof are certainly more challenging than others. And yes, smart dogs... you had better know what you are doing! They will get ahead of you and suddenly they are running the show if you don't take careful control of their learning. Super smart dogs will learn things dogs are not meant to learn. I have two of them. They make connections that other dogs do not, particularly to get attention, and it ends up being a problem I have to train around. They are crazy fun and addictive, though, and I don't know how I could ever live without a super smart dog, now.

 

Impulsivity can also be very hard to deal with if you are not sure of yourself. Some dogs do need to be actively taught impulse control, and you can expect to fight their nature to be grabby and demanding unless you know how to manage it. Or maybe you will fight it even if you do know how to manage it...

 

Proactive coping styles are also very difficult to overcome and can produce some real challenging behaviour. I have two of those as well. When something bothers them, they tend to rush towards it and try to actively engage it. OMG, it can be so problematic and takes a lot of consistency and being able to pre-empt them to get on top of it. My youngest is proactive as hell, extremely alert, AND independent. Cue charging off into the distance. It has taken so much work and management to put a lid on this natural urge and get some thinking happening. 

 

Persistence is the other one that can be tough if you're not prepared. Great if you like to do lots of training, but persistent dogs can and will outlast you and just keep at it trying to get what they want until you give in. You have to learn to pick your battles and manage the environment to work in your favour. And recognise when you're going to lose and act fast. The absolute most challenging dogs I have worked with have been outrageously smart, impulsive, optimistic, persistent, and crazy switched on to everything going on around them. They find ways to get what they want. They work out all the times you are not very attentive to them and exploit it. I once had a client whose dog had worked out if he chewed on the wall, he would get attention. What do you do? He's wrecking the house. You have to stop him. I have been in a similar situation with one of my dogs, who found out if he chased kids, I would call him. He likes being called. Ergo, he started chasing kids. Likewise, he learned if he scrapes his paw across a power board, someone will instantly react to him. Takes some creative management sometimes to sort it out.

 

Easy dogs are the not super bright ones that tend to be low arousal, and a little bit risk averse, and not at all emotionally reactive. They are socially very tolerant, tend to have a soft mouth, and don't need a lot of exercise or mental stimulation to be happy. I keep saying that the next time I pick a dog, it WILL be the slightly timid, left-pawed, pessimistic, kind of boring dog in the litter that hardly seems to notice life going on around them. I seem to get sucked in by spunky little tigers with huge opinions every time.  

[The Spotted Devil]

I've been thinking about this....my Dally and my Springers are not the easiest. They will run fast in the opposite direction and not give a shit. But if they are close by and you are REMOTELY upset (not even with them) they will quickly shut down. I think that's part of what makes them challenging. Oh and the Spaniels have THE softest mouth and dog-dog interactions. They are the sweetest house dogs. So soft doesn't equal easy either. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by The Spotted Devil

[corvus]

I don't think any one trait equals easy on its own. I am finding the podengo pretty challenging. She is reasonably biddable, but that doesn't equal easy, either. It's the combination of traits that is the killer. Any one on its own is manageable, but all together and I have my hands well and truly full. I don't have dogs that react poorly to my emotional state, thankfully. That is by design! I do have dogs that notice EVERYTHING and have an opinion about it. That is hard work. The podengo reacts very strongly to stuff. It has taken a good while for her to settle down and mature enough to work without spinning off into frenetic activity. You can't fault her enthusiasm, but wow, trying to harness it is not easy.

[KobiD]

Great hearing opinions from those who in particular have had multiple animals and experiences to compare to. It appears that challenging can be any range of things... but on the whole a more challenging dog will ensure you're always dealing with something and need to stay one step ahead, where a less challenging temperament will still require strong leadership but perhaps not as much forethought into how particular situations may unfold.

 

Seems it falls more along the lines of temperament than breed as well.

 

Some of the challenges you mentioned corvus, reminded me of our little humans... always trying to work out how to get whatever they want! And on that note, it seems quite a few people also seem to lack a bit of skill or leadership/consistency in that regard too.. another can of worms.  

[sparkycat]

This is a very interesting topic. I have a high prey drive large sighthound who is the easiest, softest most loveable dog I have ever had. I got her as a 3year and she is now 5. However I haven't been able to "train" her to do anything like drop, sit etc but she knows and understands all the household routines and rules and picks up on all my little signals such as which shoes I put on indicate what I am going to do. I have never had to tell her "no" because she doesn't do anything she's not meant to do. She loves meeting strangers, is fine with strange dogs and her recall is amazing except if she sights a rabbit (and only rabbits) she's gone at full speed !!!!

 

So does this mean she is intelligent, independent, biddable ??????

 

My boy on the other hand is very easy to train and loves learning new tricks - I am constantly trying to think of new things to teach him. But he is the one who counter surfs, steals the cats food, refuses to get in the car, whines for food, won't go outside when told etc - he is just as loveable and sooky with lower preydrive but more intelligent than my girl ???

 

[Scottsmum]

41 minutes ago, sparkycat said:

This is a very interesting topic.

Yep.  I've been mulling it over for days.  I know what I think but I don't know how to express myself. ...

 

 

[Papillon Kisses]

Well, my dog might be challenging and it can be exhausting some times, but he's taught me so many new things.

 

Want an easy dog? Don't get one with anxiety disorders. 

 

I don't know how he'd fit into those metrics except he's probably a pessimist.

 

[KobiD]

The more I think about it, the more I come to realise that it is largely subjective as well. The relationship between dog and handler must also influence the challenge, given that the definition of challenging is: testing one's abilities; demanding, then just about any dog can and will be challenging in at least some regard... and depending on the owner/handler, their ability and their patience then the overall experience could be defined as challenging, frustrating, or quite easy.

 

I could sit here and name a list of things that I've had to actively pursue and work on with our puppy. The challenges faced, and also how I could envision them running amuck if not addressed. On the other hand, there have been some things that have been quite easily addressed, or not even presented as an issue and could probably form an equally impressive list.