Chicken Frames (Raw Food)

[Visum]

I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death a million times. 

But here Goes 

I would like know thoughts on Feeding Only Chicken Frames to dogs and Puppies. 

I would like to know the pros and cons of feeding ONLY Chicken Frames and nothing else. 

 

[Scrappi&Monty]

They'll get WAY too much calcium from my understanding, and it will make them constipated & have blockages... They need a balanced raw diet, have a Google and do some research for a more in depth answer.

Look up "Raw feeding dogs calcium phosphorus ratio" that's a handy page. Also pawfectlyrawsome and raw4dogs. 

Also growing puppies need a perfectly balanced diet or else they might develop issues and their bones may grow wrong.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Scrappi&Monty

[_PL_]

As above. 
As part of a balanced diet they are great but on their own they are lacking. 

A good, easy to follow raw food handbook is 'Real Food for Dogs and Cats' by Clare Middle. 

[mackiemad]

So much calcium very little protein.

 

Also, where are the amino acids etc coming from? Usually they come from offal and hard working muscle like heart. I know they (like us) can produce most of their amino acids but not all and not in quite enough quantity. 

 

So not balanced at all IMHO 

[sandgrubber]

Having fed a mostly frames diet, I'll make a few comments:

1. Evidence is poor.  No one has fed pure frames and monitored the outcome in a scientifically meaningful way

2. If you feed a lot of frames the dogs turds get whitish and hard...they seem to excrete  excess calcium.

3. The biggest problem I had was dogs getting fat.  My source of frames supplied a lot of fat and skin with the skeleton. Also lots of meat. I did a lot of trimming.  No fun... disgusting waste.  

4. Too much of anything tends to become a problem.  I found other cheap raw stuff to add..eg horse carrots at $5 for 10 kg.  I also fed some dry kibble for 'balance'... whatever that means.

4. Some sources warn that salmonella can kill pups and oldies.  I'd pay attention to freshness, and perhaps hold back on raw where there's doubt about immune system health.

Edited August 2, 2017 by sandgrubber

[Pjrt]

Add offal and muscle meat, eggs, oily fish, cottage cheese, yoghurt etc etc to the frames. 

 

I feed the bone ( in the case of my current small dog that's usually  a chicken neck or half a wing) and with each bone meal he gets one portion of those other things. So he might get a neck and some diced lamb heart, then half a wing and a tbls of cottage cheese, then a neck with some raw kidney or liver, then wing plus an egg, then a neck with a few chicken hearts, a neck and a few sardines etc etc. I'm not too worried if for four days he gets the same extra, I just keep rotating. Some days he gets nothing but a piece of larger bone with some meat on to really work his teeth and muscles as he grips and tears at it. I also like to feed whole pieces of raw fish as a meal, whole small fish or a head off a bigger fish. Raw feeding is so much fun and so much flexibility. 

Sometimes I 'plate up' as if he's in a restaurant !! 

[Pjrt]

Another trick I use is to add water to each meal. So I drop a chicken neck and his extra into his bowl, and add for my small dog, about 1/4 cup of water, warm in winter, cold in summer. Sometimes I mash his extra depending on what he's got, to make a mash or soup of it! It slows down his eating and ensures he drinks enough. 

[twodoggies2001]

Chicken frames is not a balanced diet.  As some have mentioned, they need more and varied proteins and the offal is also essential.  There are many raw feeding sites on the net and some in Australia.  Puppies are weaned on raw so if the raw offered to them is kept refrigerated, and kept under hygiene conditions,  salmonella  should not pose a problem.  Don't forget, dogs digestive are very different to our and sometimes they eat poo amongst other things and I'm more than sure none of us do.

[Visum]

2 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

Having fed a mostly frames diet, I'll make a few comments:

1. Evidence is poor.  No one has fed pure frames and monitored the outcome in a scientifically meaningful way

2. If you feed a lot of frames the dogs turds get whitish and hard...they seem to excrete  excess calcium.

3. The biggest problem I had was dogs getting fat.  My source of frames supplied a lot of fat and skin with the skeleton. Also lots of meat. I did a lot of trimming.  No fun... disgusting waste.  

4. Too much of anything tends to become a problem.  I found other cheap raw stuff to add..eg horse carrots at $5 for 10 kg.  I also fed some dry kibble for 'balance'... whatever that means.

4. Some sources warn that salmonella can kill pups and oldies.  I'd pay attention to freshness, and perhaps hold back on raw where there's doubt about immune system health.

This is the exact information I'm looking for, thank you. 

At the moment I am feeding a complete balanced Raw Diet. 

But 

I wanted to know from someone who fed Only Frames about the results. 

My opinion is calcium overdose through natural sources is not possible,  as someone rightly mentioned above, excess calcium is expelled in the stools. 

 

My post is really because, in the initial days of the "Raw Feeding" movement there were a lot of pages on the internet which advocated feeding Raw Meaty Bones exclusively. They said that was enough. 

[Scrappi&Monty]

Ohh I see, that's good you're feeding a balanced raw diet. 

I'm not sure of the health consequences of feeding only chook frames, but I don't think it would be ideal at all for the reasons sandgrubber said. 

 

On the occasion that we've run out of meat/organ meals, I have fed my dogs raw chicken bones for dinner a few days in a row (with kibble for breakfast), even that makes them constipated with small hard white feces. (Which, TMI,  but if their poops are too hard it can cut/rip the skin on their anus causing it to bleed) 

I've heard of pups with bone development issues due to excess calcium or not enough calcium or the incorrect ratios. I wouldn't risk it with pups under the age of 2 I don't think... 

In my opinion, it's always best, for humans, dogs and any animal, to switch up what they consume. (Like they say; Too much of a good thing.) 

IMO, dogs shouldn't be fed solely on one type of food day in day out. Variety is key and it doesn't hurt to switch things up. Ours get a high quality kibble for breakfast most days and raw for dinner (chook bones, lamb meat, beef mince, rabbit BARF patties, hearts, livers, kidney, fish BARF patties, Roo BARF patties, pork meat etc.) and they get little extras sometimes too (tinned fish, suitable scraps from our meat/veg/fruit, eggs, a tiny bit of yoghurt/cottage cheese sometimes, coconut oil, treats etc.)