Buying a puppy - follow on from Pollypops post

[Airedaler]

I've started this as a new topic as I didn't want to hijack Pollypops topic on buying a desexed puppy.

 

It can be an interesting experience buying a pure bred dog in this day and age, one I'm so glad that I am not doing.

I often think if breeders of today had faced the same attitude to selling pups and protecting "their" lines when they bought their first dog  (40+ years ago in my case) they would not have been  in the dog world today, nor would many other dedicated people. And yes there were BYB's back then. Maybe not the oodle x's but people bought purebred dogs and indiscriminately bred from them and profited from them which is some ways were worse. 

 

If I buy something surely it is my right to do with it as I please. Of course good standards for the care and welfare of the animal are paramount. If a breeder wants to put conditions on the sale then IMO they should not be charging the full price for the pup. When I bought my first purebred dog I remember saying to the breeder "Oh I would not want to show but it would be nice to have a litter or two". So, today I would be sent packing in no uncertain terms, hung, draw and quartered, put on a blacklist of people never to be sold a puppy or adult because I was one who only wanted to make some money and goodness knows what else. Instead I became involved with my breeder's encouragement and experience in what has been a lifelong interest. My breeder encouraged me and many others to do so. I accept that not everyone is prepared to do the right thing and that does make it harder today BUT IMO purebred breeders are a huge part of the state we find the purebred dog world in today and to fix that they need to look at the bigger picture if it is to survive. I've had my time and am pretty much finished in this hobby but I would still like my grandchildren to be able to buy a well bred sound purebred puppy if that is what they wish to do.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Airedaler

[Bushriver]

I somewhat agree. It can be very hard to get a start I. The dog world today. I've been lucky to find some very kind and encouraging people. I think those that are so against others wanting to breed are a bit insecure? In my opinion eventually the breeders that are passionate and doing the right thing will always come out on top on the end. Word of mouth will soon be the end of those that don't. Of course you want to find the best homes for your pups or dogs, but surely encouraging those that are keen to do the right thing can only end up being better for the breed. Fresh ideas, widening the gene pool, more friends with common goals?

[cannibalgoldfish]

The prices are going up considerably for pure bred dogs as well. When I bought my dog 15 years ago on Limited reg, he was $700. My second was on Mains for $1000. The breed was reasonably uncommon at the time. Now days there are a lot more breeders and the prices have basically doubled. 

[The Spotted Devil]

Agree. Without the trust my breeders put in me I would not have the amazing dogs I have now. Zig is 10 and has not been bred from - although there is a possibility this year. Em has produced one gorgeous litter and hopefully another one if the puppy dust settles properly. Both of my breeders have been incredible mentors for me. I encourage my puppy buyers to leave their dogs entire for 12-18 months. If I had someone wanting to breed I would ensure it happened with my support and guidance. I can't keep pups or breed as much as I would like and it's critical to maintain genetic diversity. 

 

As for prices I make no apology for mine. I've just done 3 prog tests @ $55 each (cheap!) plus 3 x trips to Geelong (pretty much 3 days work plus petrol) plus a fresh AI ($180) plus the stud fee. Oh and the eye test. And I won't even know if she's pregnant for 4 weeks...but that will be an ultrasound so more $$$  

Edited July 22, 2017 by The Spotted Devil

[Rebanne]

I'm in for over $3000 already and no idea if Phoebe is pregnant but as I have a breed that is unpopular to buy my price has remained the same for 9 years. Just a well I think being a breed guardian is important. 

[SmokeyR67]

I understand breeders who want their pups to go to a good home, and I respect them for doing everything they can to ensure that this happens. Sometimes it can seem a bit excessive,but I'd much rather see breeders screening owners than seeing unscrupulous people buying pups with no other motive than breeding for profit.

 

As far as the cost of pups these days - my last 2 GSD's cost me $800 each, 12 years later  I wouldn't blink if the same pups from the same breeder cost me 2k each. Why? Vets certainly don't get paid 150% of of what they used to, nor do their staff, and there's more than enough honest breeders (99.99%) to ensure that they aren't profiteering. My theory is that (a) councils are charging a hell of a lot more just for rates, let alone dog registration for your average desexed couch potato, so tha'ts  big hit for a breeder, and (b) the push for pet insurance has allowed the vet med companies to push up the cost of their products. An average visit to the Vet may only cost say 25% more for their services than it did 10 years ago, but any meds will cost 200% more (before anyone claims I'm exaggerating, I am pulling those numbers out of my jaxie). If my theory is correct, the costs to keep a bitch healthy during pregnancy, and then a litter of pups from birth to 8 + weeks have skyrocketed, so we can't expect the breeder to absorb those costs.

 

Anyhow, I just went on an off topic rant, so to get back to the point

23 hours ago, Airedaler said:

I remember saying to the breeder "Oh I would not want to show but it would be nice to have a litter or two". So, today I would be sent packing in no uncertain terms, hung, draw and quartered, put on a blacklist of people never to be sold a puppy or adult because I was one who only wanted to make some money and goodness knows what else

Not that long ago, most pups where "sold" for 1 cent in the trading post. Everyone with a bitch was a potential breeder, everyone with a dog stood a good chance of finding a cardboard box full of pups on their doorstep with a note about "your dog did this, you look after them". It wasn't unheard of for a litter of pups to be put in a sugar bag and thrown in a river

 

We've evolved, we don't want that sort of thing to happen, we want to prosecute puppy farmers, and we want to minimise genetic health problems -  responsible breeders recognise that they have a responsibility as the first link of that chain and they take it seriously, health screening their potential breeding stock and only allowing the best examples to mate. They screen prospective owners almost as rigorously as they do their breeding dogs, and rightfully so, after all, we don't want to get back to the situation of last century where every second lab had hip issues, and every second GSD was bred for temperament, not good temperament, just a bad attitude and big teeth.

 

I know that as someone looking for a pup the screening by a breeder seems like the third degree, but honestly, breeders are just nice people who love their dogs and want to see the best for their progeny.

 

I hope that made sense, I've done a few too many nightshifts to know if I'm coherant or not:)

 

Shane

[Maddy]

On 7/22/2017 at 9:33 AM, Airedaler said:

I've started this as a new topic as I didn't want to hijack Pollypops topic on buying a desexed puppy.

 

It can be an interesting experience buying a pure bred dog in this day and age, one I'm so glad that I am not doing.

I often think if breeders of today had faced the same attitude to selling pups and protecting "their" lines when they bought their first dog  (40+ years ago in my case) they would not have been  in the dog world today, nor would many other dedicated people. And yes there were BYB's back then. Maybe not the oodle x's but people bought purebred dogs and indiscriminately bred from them and profited from them which is some ways were worse. 

 

If I buy something surely it is my right to do with it as I please. Of course good standards for the care and welfare of the animal are paramount. If a breeder wants to put conditions on the sale then IMO they should not be charging the full price for the pup. When I bought my first purebred dog I remember saying to the breeder "Oh I would not want to show but it would be nice to have a litter or two". So, today I would be sent packing in no uncertain terms, hung, draw and quartered, put on a blacklist of people never to be sold a puppy or adult because I was one who only wanted to make some money and goodness knows what else. Instead I became involved with my breeder's encouragement and experience in what has been a lifelong interest. My breeder encouraged me and many others to do so. I accept that not everyone is prepared to do the right thing and that does make it harder today BUT IMO purebred breeders are a huge part of the state we find the purebred dog world in today and to fix that they need to look at the bigger picture if it is to survive. I've had my time and am pretty much finished in this hobby but I would still like my grandchildren to be able to buy a well bred sound purebred puppy if that is what they wish to do.

Oh, yes.

We paid $1500 for a mains registered dog (as a show prospect) who, as it turns out, is a bilateral cryptorchid (six months old now, can't even feel them in the inguinal canal, which means likely abdominal). We got no choice in puppy- in fact, we got the puppy I liked least of all- and so he has become a very expensive pet that I haven't really bonded with. It was a profoundly disappointing experience and one I plan to never go through again, if I can avoid it.

Compare this to the previous dog: she came from a registered breeder who sold pups unregistered if people just wanted them as pets (and I believe she has since been dobbed in and is no longer registered). Shitty Whippet cost us $600 and is such a perfect dog that it's sort of annoying at times. Shitty Whippet is incredibly clean, endlessly patient and sweet-natured and, to be honest, the entire reason the OH fell so completely in love with the breed.

If the second whippet had been our first whippet, he would have been our only whippet, because I'd never have gone near the breed again.

 

For the second whippet, we researched breeders, we tried to do everything right and it ended up being a very bad experience compared to when we got SW. Usually, the advice given here (by me, included) is "do your research" but now, I honestly have doubts as to whether that is actually particularly useful advice. It's more like "Do your research and then cross your fingers." because really, you just can't know.

The entire experience has completely put me off the pedigree dog world and given me serious reason to doubt everything I'd believed about it. I still want to own purebred dogs but to be honest, I'm incredibly wary of dealing with registered breeders because I now know that I can't pick when someone is being dishonest with me :/

[SmokeyR67]

Maddy, sorry to hear about your lads issues.

 

It was a very long time ago, perhaps 25 years, but I bought a pup who developed hip dysplasia at a very young age, and as part of the contract ( I hate using this sort of terminology, it makes a pup seem like a commodity) the breeder was obliged to either take the dog back and replace him with another pup, or refund the purchase price. That was in the standard GSD club paperwork, is there anything like that in the paperwork you signed?

 

Shane

[Rebanne]

10 minutes ago, Maddy said:

The entire experience has completely put me off the pedigree dog world and given me serious reason to doubt everything I'd believed about it. I still want to own purebred dogs but to be honest, I'm incredibly wary of dealing with registered breeders because I now know that I can't pick when someone is being dishonest with me :/

As a registered breeder I've been done like a dinner twice by people buying my pups. One is another breeder, one a person who wanted to show. Good liars are very good at their craft It resulted in the death of one dog

I took a pup once, not my current breed, which I wasn't really happy with. I learnt my lesson and now have no problems in sticking to my guns

[The Spotted Devil]

A liar is a liar. Every profession and hobby has people of all descriptions and capabilities. Doctors, lawyers, teachers and of course breeders. I've had some crappy doctors in my time but have a simply awesome array of medical folk now (I've had a few serious injuries lately). I take people as I find them. 

[SmokeyR67]

1 minute ago, The Spotted Devil said:

A liar is a liar. lawyers, . 

Sorry for hacking your post, but I had to do it:)

[The Spotted Devil]

18 minutes ago, SmokeyR67 said:

Sorry for hacking your post, but I had to do it:)

 

 

Fortunately I'm not a lawyer lol

[SmokeyR67]

5 minutes ago, The Spotted Devil said:

 

 

Fortunately I'm not a lawyer lol

I could tell that you weren't, you called a liar a "liar", instead of a "solid member of the business community who was led into this unfortunate situation because of an addiction to prescription pain killers"

[Maddy]

2 hours ago, SmokeyR67 said:

Maddy, sorry to hear about your lads issues.

 

It was a very long time ago, perhaps 25 years, but I bought a pup who developed hip dysplasia at a very young age, and as part of the contract ( I hate using this sort of terminology, it makes a pup seem like a commodity) the breeder was obliged to either take the dog back and replace him with another pup, or refund the purchase price. That was in the standard GSD club paperwork, is there anything like that in the paperwork you signed?

 

Shane

Nope, we handed over money and that was it. At the time, we were put in a really awkward position (kids involved) and in hindsight, yeah, I definitely should've backed out and asked for a full refund of my deposit (which was $750, not money we could really walk away from). It was a case of feeling a bit.. cornered? We were led to believe one thing, organised a huge amount of stuff around it, such as long service leave for staying home with puppy, and we basically had no choice.

Not that we could just send him back now anyway. He isn't what we wanted but that's not his fault and he doesn't deserve to be dumped back at his breeders for a refund or exchanged like a t-shirt that doesn't fit. I know some people could do that but.. I couldn't. I spent many years rescuing and a few of those dogs were pet surrenders and they were always the hardest. The owners would walk away and the poor dogs would screech and cry as they realised what was happening. One plain just stopped eating and it was heartbreaking to see how it hurt her. So yeah, I could never do that to a dog. At least he is happy and that's what really matters.

But the experience was certainly an eye-opener. We had planned to get a borzoi later this year but now I'm not sure. The whippets are the OH's dogs (SW turned him into a crazy whippet man) and after losing my last greyhound to cancer, I wanted another big sighthound for myself. I want one but now I have so many doubts and so many concerns. 

 

Rebanne, I'm so sorry you lost a pup, I can't begin to imagine how painful that must have been  Without being too specific, did it come to a home down here?

[SmokeyR67]

Maddy,

 

I totally understand your situation, while there's nothing more heartbreaking than bringing a pup into your life and finding out they have health issues, theres no way you could just return them to the breeder - a responsible owner takes care of their pup no matter what

 

I've just written a small novel about my experience, but deleted it as it was way too long, so long story short, the GSD club contract at the time said that if the dog had a congenital issue, you could return the dog for a full refund (just like you'd do with a faulty toaster ) I was lucky, there was obviously no question of giving up my boy, the breeder was actually a trainer at the club, and I let them know what was going on as a courtesy - the next week they refunded the money, and helped out (non financially, i.e. dog sitting) while my boy recovered from a hip replacement.

 

In your case, I think the breeder should give you your money back to help with the vet costs you have or will incur. I know that some will argue that you still have the pup and he's a great pet, and that's true, but you wanted a dog with his boy bits in the correct position for conformation, the breeder selected the dog knowing that, and even though it's no-ones fault, surely the kennel should just refund your money not because they "provided a faulty product" but because it's the right thing to do.

 

I hope you and your boy develop a strong bond, I can understand being disappointed, but it's not his fault, not your fault and to be honest not having dangly bits might actually be a good thing in the long term:)

 

Shane

 

 

[Rebanne]

1 hour ago, Maddy said:

 

Rebanne, I'm so sorry you lost a pup, I can't begin to imagine how painful that must have been  Without being too specific, did it come to a home down here?

No. I asked to have him back several times but.....

[Maddy]

22 minutes ago, SmokeyR67 said:

Maddy,

 

I totally understand your situation, while there's nothing more heartbreaking than bringing a pup into your life and finding out they have health issues, theres no way you could just return them to the breeder - a responsible owner takes care of their pup no matter what

 

I've just written a small novel about my experience, but deleted it as it was way too long, so long story short, the GSD club contract at the time said that if the dog had a congenital issue, you could return the dog for a full refund (just like you'd do with a faulty toaster ) I was lucky, there was obviously no question of giving up my boy, the breeder was actually a trainer at the club, and I let them know what was going on as a courtesy - the next week they refunded the money, and helped out (non financially, i.e. dog sitting) while my boy recovered from a hip replacement.

 

In your case, I think the breeder should give you your money back to help with the vet costs you have or will incur. I know that some will argue that you still have the pup and he's a great pet, and that's true, but you wanted a dog with his boy bits in the correct position for conformation, the breeder selected the dog knowing that, and even though it's no-ones fault, surely the kennel should just refund your money not because they "provided a faulty product" but because it's the right thing to do.

 

I hope you and your boy develop a strong bond, I can understand being disappointed, but it's not his fault, not your fault and to be honest not having dangly bits might actually be a good thing in the long term:)

 

Shane

 

 

To be honest, the dangly bits that don't dangle are not all that important to me. I've decided to give them another few weeks and if they don't magically appear in that time, he'll be going in to have them removed. I can't leave them and risk them becoming cancerous, not after going through cancer twice in the last few years. I could still show him as a neuter but I feel that retained testicles of that sort are a major health issue and it wouldn't be.. honest? to show him.

The stuff that really causes us trouble is the fact he wasn't a good fit for us and I feel that it was obvious, even when we met him (he had no interest in us at all, which was not a great portent for things to come). SW is a quiet, sedate little lady who enjoys naps under blankets and loves to be with us. Puppy is.. like if you crossed a feral goat with a feral cat. He has no real interest in people, he just wants to climb furniture, eat poo- his coprophagia is an ongoing hassle- and generally be left alone. We've put in extra work because he's going to have to improve, as some aspects of his behaviour have potential to be dangerous, but it feels like a huge, miserable slog for the bare minimum of results we get. Still, we made a commitment to him and that's on us. I don't dislike him for it, I just wish we could go back and do things very differently.
With regards to money.. meh. When I brought up his coprophagia (which is a huge, unpleasant hassle, he was obviously very practiced already, by 8 weeks of age), his breeder just said that she'd never seen him do it and.. that was that? So retained testicles, yeah, I don't think the response will be much different. I feel it would be fair if she paid for the desexing but I don't have the time or energy to chase it up. Once we've booked in a desexing date and got a full cost estimate, I'll email her and just let her know. If she chooses to offer to pay for it, good. If not.. well, whatever. Lesson learned.

If we do decide to go ahead with getting a borzoi, I suspect it's going to be incredibly difficult to find someone willing to work with us to ensure that there's trust on both sides. Dogs are such a huge commitment and I'm not willing to go through this experience again. I'd rather not have a dog at all, than one I felt "meh" about, to be honest  

 

49 minutes ago, Rebanne said:

No. I asked to have him back several times but.....

I had a somewhat similar experience (the dog just.. disappeared, you might know who it was) and that was bad enough. I think people like that are the minority but also, people who do things like that tend to have track records. In my case, other people were like "Oh yeah, we could have told you that would happen" and it's frustrating to think that if there was some way of finding out, that dog would still be alive. Dol could probably be helpful there but then again, you can never know, can you?

[Rebanne]

8 minutes ago, Maddy said:

 

I had a somewhat similar experience (the dog just.. disappeared, you might know who it was) and that was bad enough. I think people like that are the minority but also, people who do things like that tend to have track records. In my case, other people were like "Oh yeah, we could have told you that would happen" and it's frustrating to think that if there was some way of finding out, that dog would still be alive. Dol could probably be helpful there but then again, you can never know, can you?

Yes I have a good idea who you are talking about.  At least I know what happened to mine. And no track record, they were a newbie.

As for your no nuts whippet boy, the breeder should have known they weren't down by time of sale. And certainly shouldn't have sold him as a show prospect until both testicles were down.

[Rascalmyshadow]

We have been burnt multiple times by registered breeders even after doing plenty of homework.

 

First time we bought an Airedale, at 5 months old he was PTS, his ureter (I think that's the correct name) wasn't connected to his bladder, he had abnormal kidneys and was in the early stages of renal failure.

 

Second one we bought a 10month old afghan, she had been shown but hated it so the breeder decided she would be better in a pet home, we noticed very early on she slept a lot more than we thought was normal, breeder told us all his afghans were like that. At 18 months old she got worse, we lost her to what the vets thought was meningitis but quite likely it was a brain tumour.

 

Third time we bought a 10 month old Samoyed from interstate, within hours of the dog arriving I knew something was seriously wrong with its back legs, took him into work with me the vets knocked him out and did X-rays, he had such severe hip displasia the vets advised me not to wake him up, he was pts on the spot.

Turned out the breeder had lied wasn't even one of her dogs, she was just helping someone out rehoming him.

 

The two purebreds we have now were from what seemed to be good breeders but unfortunately the chihuahua had to have surgery to fix her elongated palate and the poodle has to be kept to a strict diet or else he vomits, has been like that since we got him at 8 weeks old.

I'm actually starting to wonder just how to find a healthy non problematic purebred when we ever decide to get another dog.

[Maddy]

On 7/23/2017 at 5:17 PM, Rebanne said:

Yes I have a good idea who you are talking about.  At least I know what happened to mine. And no track record, they were a newbie.

As for your no nuts whippet boy, the breeder should have known they weren't down by time of sale. And certainly shouldn't have sold him as a show prospect until both testicles were down.

I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt but.. when we went to pick him up, she told me that both were down and quickly picked him up, flipped him onto his back, gave the area a prod to demonstrate (I saw nothing that looked like a testicle but it was too fast to see, really) and then put him back down again. So maybe she missed it because she checks that fast. Or maybe she was deliberately misleading me. There was certainly nothing in his scrotum at 8 weeks and I could tell that, so I have to assume she could, too. Maybe she was hoping they were just late to come down and that it'd happen before we tried to show him, who knows. 

This is sort of the problem, isn't it. You can't know what the other persons' intentions were; whether or not they had intended, from the beginning, to deceive, or that something had happened and they lied only because they didn't know what else to do. Honesty does seem a lot harder for some people, especially if it involves admitting a mistake. I had a couple adopt a dog from me (one that I didn't think was right for them), they insisted they could handle him and so foolishly, I let them take him. When it turned out they couldn't handle him, instead of just ringing me up and admitting this, they told me that he'd killed another dog and they had to return him. They were willing to see this dog die, rather than admit a mistake. And because I only found out about the lie several months down the track, the dog was indeed put to sleep. What I learned from that horrible experience was to never under-estimate the stupid sh*t people will lie about to avoid looking foolish/wrong. The extents that people will go to, can be quite incredible.