Socialisation

[Rebanne]

I've sold litter mates and it all worked out fine. Depends on the breed and the effort put in. I have a fairly bonded pair right now and they are 6 and 3.

[Rascalmyshadow]

2 hours ago, Rebanne said:

I've sold litter mates and it all worked out fine. Depends on the breed and the effort put in. I have a fairly bonded pair right now and they are 6 and 3.

Has it worked out fine because that's was the owners say or have you stayed in very close contact and watched the dogs behaviour, subtle body language etc?

Are you talking about just one breed?

 

Sometimes it does work but from experience with numerous breeds, even when owners think everything is ok often that's not the case.

 

[Rebanne]

1 hour ago, Rascalmyshadow said:

 

Sometimes it does work but from experience with numerous breeds, even when owners think everything is ok often that's not the case.

 

well you would know wouldn't you

[DogsAndTheMob]

When I was a teenager, my mother and I twice raised puppies from the same litter in the same household. Of the four puppies, one became an obedience champion. The other three obtained their CDX (obedience) titles and had UD (obedience) qualifications when their trialling careers were curtailed. However, for the most part, they were managed, housed and trained separately. I trained my dogs and they slept in my bedroom. My mother trained her dogs and they slept in her room.

 

Would I raise two puppies from the same litter by myself? No. I see too many disadvantages.

* The bonding issue is real and I don't want to be the "third wheel" in the relationship between myself and my dogs.

* It's difficult to train two puppies at the same time. If one puppy jumps up on a visitor/ chases the cat/ pushes through the door but the other sits quietly, which do you respond to? You can never scold one puppy for fear of worrying the other. Even rewarding good behaviour can be problematic with a second puppy pushing in to share the praise and treat.

* If you take both puppies outside for a toilet break or training, chances are they'd rather play. If you leave one inside, he may be "caught short" or find mischief to explore while you're outside. 

 

 I would, however, get one puppy, keeping my options open for getting a second one a few months later depending on circumstances. There are few sights as delightful as two youngsters playing together.

 

In the 80s, I got a border collie puppy and then, four months later my husband got a German shepherd puppy, but I trained both dogs. The border collie was high energy, even for that breed, and I think he would have been miserable without another youngster to play with - although our backyard soon looked like a bomb site!

 

The BC had no problem bonding to me. He obtained his first CD qualification at 10 months and went on to gain his CD, CDX and UD titles (UDX did not exist at the time). The GSD obtained her CD title but was a "sullen" dog to train. I'm not sure how much of her "sullenness " was because she had bonded to the BC, not to me or my husband.

 

Vislas are very sensitive dogs in comparison to many German shepherds, labs and cattle dogs. (Of course, there are exceptions to this rule!)  Unless you are very comfortable training sensitive dogs, you might also be wise to get one visla, and wait until she's half-grown before deciding whether you want another visla or a different breed.

[SmokeyR67]

Seems like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

 

I'll make the decision when I decide if I'm going to bother working again - if I do, then 1 pup at a time might be the best plan, if not, then 14 pups in one hit might be good:)

 

 

[DogsAndTheMob]

You may have been very unlucky to have problems with dog fights. My parents were (registered) breeders of GSDs and border collies, so I grew up with dogs and I've owned between two and four dogs constantly for the last thirty years. Fighting dogs have been a rarity.

 

Based on my observations, I would anticipate more problems if the dogs were similar in age. Most of the households of dogs I've watched have been heirarchical, although there have been those dogs who couldn't care less. Even when the older dogs grew frail, the younger ones haven't challenged their position. I can only remember two exceptions to this: when my parents' two oldest and most senior dogs died within days of each other, the bitch two down the new heirarchy attacked the new "top dog" - a bitch a year or so older than her; also, a husky I owned walked into my house as an eight week old puppy expecting to be boss. She was the runt of her litter and I think she may have been hand-raised, away from her litter mates.

 

However, I act to prevent problems developing. Puppies are not allowed to harass older dogs, and older dogs are not allowed to bully puppies. I watch the dogs constantly when they are together, and separate them without fuss if either looks uncomfortable. I allow the older dog licence to rebuke a pesky puppy with a curl of the lip or a growl, but not more. If there is friction, the puppy goes into the crate, and the older dog is placed on a down stay.

 

If possible, older dogs have a retreat that they can reach but the puppy cannot - a piece of furniture that they're allowed to jump on, or an area behind a barrier that they can jump over but the puppy cannot.

 

Always remember, people who tell you to "let them sort it out for themselves" will not volunteer to pay your vet bills after a dog fight.

[KobiD]

I couldn't start to imagine the challenges of having two puppies developing together. It would be near 24/7 hands on action. Especially since you've described your own personality/attention to detail/tendency to over think. Ultimately it's your decision though.

 

In regards to socialisation, I personally wouldn't try and structure it too much. Involve the animal in the things you do (and the things you'd like to do together) and work within the puppy's comfort levels. The whole process isn't about exposing them to 'everything', but rather having them form 'positive experiences'.

 

The examples you shared earlier with animals not crossing bridges, stairs, steps, etc don't need to be formed in the first 12 weeks imo. It's more that you have a bond and trust, and the skill set to train and reward the behaviours you want. If the animal hesitates it doesn't mean you need to force it to overcome that fear, nor do you need to moddy coddle. 

 

My experience is quite limited, however all my research around socialisation indicates that the main goal is to ensure negative experiences are limited, and that in many cases, while through good intent, people inadvertently cause quite a few unwanted behaviours through over socialisation.  

[DogsAndTheMob]

I imagine someone has already pointed you to This thread.. it is a wonderful resource for puppy owners.

[SmokeyR67]

On 8/21/2017 at 4:21 PM, KobiD said:

I couldn't start to imagine the challenges of having two puppies developing together. It would be near 24/7 hands on action. Especially since you've described your own personality/attention to detail/tendency to over think. Ultimately it's your decision though.

I can see 2 pups bouncing off each other, rather than chewing the dining table legs, and me having to go through that twice:)

 

There are advantages in all options, older dog with pup, 2 pups from the same litter, 2 pups of a similar age, I think it all comes down to personal circumstances - if you can spend 18 hours a day with your pups or only 1 hour., I'm an 14 hour per day type of guy.

 

Smokey

[Roova]

... or... you have two bored pups chewing table legs, barking at the neighbours, jumping on visitors, running the fence line, digging up the garden, crying when separated from you or each other, weeing inside  etc

 

There's a reason experts say it's a tough job but you seem pretty determined so good luck to you. Just please remember, it's not how many hours you're home which counts, it's the effort you put in to training, socialising and their environment which will make the difference.

 

[Starkehre]

I ran on two puppies from the one litter 18 months ago.

When I decided to do so I full well knew what I was getting myself in for. I was familiar with litter sibling syndrome and how much extra work I would have to do. Although I am not a qualified dog trainer, I have been training dogs for almost 30 years and I consider myself fairly dog savvy. I have raised many puppies. I work from home and don't go out unless it is to dog training, trialling or showing. So if anyone could pull this off successfully it would be me in my then current situation right?

 

Well, yes I did pull it off and I did a pretty good job too. But and there are plenty of huge BUTS...there's puppies were never allowed to run together, they still aren't. It is constant separation and juggling of puppies. My hips are shot now from all the constant bending over when I had to pull them apart if I accidentally let one slip through or I was trying some quiet "place" time in the living room.

They get along great, always have. The issue is that they will launch into rough play too quickly and that is not a good thing. This is how dogs hurt and injured. Vizslas are a lighter breed, so less risk of injury but they play bloody hard.

 

So 18 months on, we can have both of them free in the living room with us whilst watching tele. I can ask for "place" and it is pretty reliable that they will stay. However, as soon as I am distracted they will start playing. I allow land sharks in the drop position sometimes but it is on my cue.

It is really bloody hard. I definitely ticked the box of them not becoming co dependant...except if I leave the house with them both in the car, reach a destination and take one out. totally my fault because I did this when socializing everyday, which you have to do for at least the first 12-16 weeks but I try to do it at least every other day also until 6 months. So, now back to basics working on that one. I should have been leaving one at home, but thought I would save time doing it this way.

 

Literally everything must be separate for them for soooo long, allowing together time as a very small part whilst they are adolescents, otherwise you will run the risk of always having co dependent issues.

 

I find the average pet person is getting two dogs because mostly because they want to see them playing and running together and enjoying one another's company, especially for when the owners can't be there. So this is why I would never sell litter siblings or recommend puppies of similar age to the one pet home. Separating puppies and extremely full on raising is not what they envisage as wonderful puppy ownership and they'd be right. it is bloody hard work, extremely hard. It comes down to the over familiarity that happens when dogs who were born together, then live together forever. They play too rough and what starts in laughter usually ends in tears. Rough play can end in fights.

 

Again, I'M 95% pleased with the job I have done. Nothing surprised me, I knew exactly what to expect and I got it. Would I do it again? Not in a pink fit!!! It near killed me, I had to have 6 months off work and still have kept business slow deliberately. I actually don't feel like I have ever quite recovered.

[SmokeyR67]

On 9/4/2017 at 5:54 AM, Roova said:

... or... you have two bored pups chewing table legs, barking at the neighbours, jumping on visitors, running the fence line, digging up the garden, crying when separated from you or each other, weeing inside  etc

 

There's a reason experts say it's a tough job but you seem pretty determined so good luck to you. Just please remember, it's not how many hours you're home which counts, it's the effort you put in to training, socialising and their environment which will make the difference.

 

At least the pups will only destroy the table once:)

 

I think, just by my opening posts that I show I'm very committed to socialisation, as far as I'm concerned it's the most important part of training for a young mammal, be they dog, cat , human or other! No matter what approach I take ( 1 pup at a time, 2 pups together etc), my pups will have a wide variety of experiences in their first year of life, from listening to my storm sounds CD when they're napping, to chasing yowies in the local park. They won't be perfect, but they'll be mine, and I'll be theirs.

[PANDI-GIRL]

Good on you  @SmokeyR67  i think that sounds wonderful,  you will have so much fun with  2 pups  watching them play .

Have you a breeder  in mind  at the moment, when will you bring the pups home.

I wish you lots of fun times ahead , keep us posted  when the pups come.