Socialisation

[SmokeyR67]

Hi again,

 

Well, I've decided on getting a couple of Vizsla pups, and even though it's a long way off (I haven;t even contacted a breeder) I want to plan their early puppyhood experiences.

 

I'll enroll them in 2 puppy pre schools, crating one while training the other (and let the caged one loose to play at the end of the lesson:) ) and I 'm thinking of a few other experiences for them.

 

Firstly, I'll take them to the vet for a play, no shots, no bath, just fun and liver bits.

 

Within a 10 minute drive of home, there's both a fire and ambulance station, so I'll contact them and see if they mind me bringing a couple of leashed pups to watch them work. I figure I can do that fairly early on, before they get fully vaccinated as it will be low risk.

 

There's a park nearby that has your standard open spaces, kids playground and best of all a bridge, I'd like to take them over that bridge as soon as possible, but I'm not sure if I can take them to a park before they're fully vaccinated?

 

My Sister is 5 minutes away, she has chickens and a son, so initially I'll let the boy and the pups loose to do what boys and pups do, and after all their shots they can check out the chooks under supervision. I also have a mate who's a dogless dog addict (obedience trainer, had the craziest schnauzer and trained him to a tiltle), he'll love them and he's an hours drive away, so good car training and some fun at the end of the trip.

 

At this age (fully vacced) I'll start them at the obedience club, again, one crated one training, and we also have a pony riding for the disabled school very nearby, so I'd like to take them down to meet the kids and learn to be around the horses. I'm only a 15 minute walk from the local shops, so I'll take them with me while I buy a loaf of bread in the morning.

 

A couple of my neighbours have dogs, one is the sweetest labrawotsit bitch, the other a nice beagle bitch, both are well cared for, healthy and I'd like to introduce them to my pups as soon as possible, but like any expectant pup adopter, I'm nervous about any illness that they may catch.

 

I'd really appreciate your input, if I'm planning something stupid, please tell me, I won't take offence, it's been 10 years since I've had pups, and things change (and I forget stuff)

 

Shane

 

 

[Dogsfevr]

I would not get 2 Vizsla puppies at the same time and doubt a good breeder would recommend it ,whilst I believe it can work in many breeds in this case you have a breed known as a Velcro breed and a very smart functioning multi purpose dog .

As far as training classes go I think your underestimating the time each pup will need and not all will sit happily in a crate whilst the other is out that will be a whole training lesson again .If pup is screaming in crate to be with other it will be an issue 

I would get one ,invest the time to train and get good sound fundamentals,learn its personality and then get a mate that suits that dogs nature ,some are challenging and need lots of brain games some very chilled ,if you end up with two high drive thinkers you will be in for more work than you ever dreamed .

 

As for socialising each to there own but I have never over done it .

 

i would suggest you phone a good breeder and ask them there thoughts on this 

Edited July 16, 2017 by Dogsfevr

[SmokeyR67]

Thanks Dogsfevr for the advice, I'll definately take it on board.

 

I am convinced that the pain of having 2 puppies the same age is offset by the bond that they share, so I'm still happy to go that route.

 

As far as the puppy pre school thing, I'm not talking about doing 2 sessions back to back, I was thinking, say, tuesday night dog a is in the class and dog b has to learn to sit out, and thursday night dog b trains and dog a is in the crate.

 

It's been a long time since I've had puppies, and I can see your point about the one in the crate being a huge distraction, but I do want them crate trained and to reduce separation anxiety.... I might have to find a willing neighbour to puppy sit twice a week..

 

Thanks again,

 

Shane

[Dogsfevr]

so If the breeder won't sell you 2 pups what is the plan then ,

As a Gundog owner 2 pups in a needy breed is more work than most appreciate 

Crate training will not reduce separation anxiety ,teaching 2 puppies to be independent of each other and confident on there own and sharing you will .That means leaving one home ,walking one at a time .There bond should be with you not each other 

 

If you still thinking of doing tracking then I suggest get 1 first train early set pup up as a good role model for pup 2 and it will work far better .

But if your convinced you can do it you need to have a realistic plan of all the things that may go wrong and how to deal with that .

 

And yes I have owned litter mate gundogs of a needy breed and it's trying,time consuming and has its pitfalls when they compete for your attention .

 

Talk to a good breeder there advice should give you the answers to whether your plan is doable 

[SmokeyR67]

Mate, they're going to spend 99% of their time within arms reach of me, so separation anxiety will always be an issue, whether I start with one or two.

 

I am about to retire, 12 days and counting. I'll have all the time in the world to train them,  whether I start with 2 litter mates, or they're 12 months apart. As for the breeder not selling me 2 pups, thats cool, I really hope they do their best to assess me and my situation before they even consider letting me near their dogs, and if they have an issue with my plans (and I will provide them with a plan for the pups first 12 months, health, socialisation and training) then we'll discuss the concerns, resolve the issue, or part ways with a hand shake.

 

I can understand what your saying, and I appreciate that your contributing your experience, and I'm taking your advice on board, but I also have some experience, and I've found that bringing in a new pup into a young adult working dogs home  (and to be honest, when I have dogs, it's their house, they guard it and I mow the lawns ;) )- there can be lots of problems, not from aggression, but from boisterous play. A 35 kg teenager won't mean to hurt the 10kg toddler, but it happens, and it can cause friction throughout their adult life.

 

Anyhow, back to socialisation,  be it one pup or 100, do you see anything in my plan that I shouldn't do, and is there anything else that you'd suggest would be a good experience for a young dog?

 

Thanks

 

Shane

 

[Rascalmyshadow]

Sounds like your being quite prepared, even if you decide you have to get two pups at the same time I would not recommend getting littermates, there's a good reason most good breeders won't sell two pups together from the same litter.

I have seen my customers over the years have so many disasters after buying littermates, a couple have ended up having to rehome one, seems to be worse with same sex combos but I have noticed even in male/female there is more than a normal amount of competition.

[SmokeyR67]

Thx Rascal,

 

I've never had litter mates, I've always had an older bitch and a younger dog, and to be honest it's never been perfect, there's always been that little bit of play that go's too far, the bitch becomes a little too assertive and the young fella ends up resenting the older girl.

 

It's obviously something I do wrong, now I've identified that, its time to work out what why and how to fix it.

[Tassie]

1 hour ago, SmokeyR67 said:

Thx Rascal,

 

I've never had litter mates, I've always had an older bitch and a younger dog, and to be honest it's never been perfect, there's always been that little bit of play that go's too far, the bitch becomes a little too assertive and the young fella ends up resenting the older girl.

 

It's obviously something I do wrong, now I've identified that, its time to work out what why and how to fix it.

To address this point first ... I don't think it's anything you've done wrong.   When this sort of thing happens, it's usually the older dog teaching the puppy that   a) it's gone too far with whatever it was doing and needs some impulse control    and/or b)  that its puppy licence has run out!.  Either way, not a bad thing as long as it is appropriate and measured.

 

I would be another who would seriously counsel you against getting 2 Vizsla pups together, whether litter mates or not.    Believe me, when you're retired, you're not going to have that unlimited time you think you'll have, and also, if you're thinking in terms of performance sports down the track, that time is much better spent working on building a great relationship with one pup, learning who that pup is, and adjusting expectations accordingly.   Then probably look at getting another pup when the initial one is about 2 or 3, and well settled into your routines.   That will seriously help the next pup, as they do a lot of learning by mimicry.

 

I probably wouldn't be planning in so much detail, but in general, most of what you plan for helping the pup to get used to the world is fine .. although depending on the age of your nephew, I would be a bit cautious about just letting boy and pup loose together.   The same thing applies to play dates with older dogs... they need to be carefully supervised to protect a youngster from over exerting, or damaging a growing body.    You need to protect the pup from getting over the top excited (good luck with that from the Vizslas I've known), and from doing too much physical stuff too soon.   I haven't done puppy pre-school with any puppy I've had .. partly a timing thing, and partly because some of them are not very useful or good for the puppy.

 

I probably wouldn't be letting your pup be on the ground in a park where a lot of dogs have been until 2nd vac (C5), but by all means drive the pup to lots of places where you can sit and let pup observe all sorts of people and things.   And you can be observing pup's reactions to strange people, objects, noises etc.

 

[Dogsfevr]

I would say any advice given you actually don't want to hear ,goodluck i hope it works out but being retired doesn't make it any easier

 

[SmokeyR67]

You might say that Dogsfevr, but what your saying is baseless, and slightly insulting. (Don't worry, I have a very thick skin)

 

Yes, I question what I read, and respond with questions and statements, it's part of the way that I learn, I don't dismiss anything, but I question everything, it's how I've gotten through life with a modicum of success.

 

From what you and others have said, I'll be reconsidering my approach, and trying to work out the best way to introduce a couple of pups into my home. The crux of this topic, socialisation, will remain the same, I dare say I'll go through the process twice, but I'll learn from the first time, re jig my plan and end up with a couple of fantastically adjusted dogs who love their morning stroll, their afternoon run, and will be the best furry hot water bottles on a cool winters night:)

 

Shane.

 

P.S. I'm confused about retirement not being easier - I won't be working 12 hour shifts, 2 night, 2 days, 3 off if I'm lucky to being a 7 day a week man of leisure, how can that not be easier - please tell me that I haven't spent 33 years chasing a non existent dream!!!!

[Scrappi&Monty]

6 hours ago, SmokeyR67 said:

I am convinced that the pain of having 2 puppies the same age is offset by the bond that they share, so I'm still happy to go that route.

 

We adopted Monty (who was a 6mth old) when Scrappi was 6 years old, and they are the best of friends. They are actually a little bit too bonded as they sometimes get distressed when the other is away. 

So even though there is a big age gap they are still like peas in a pod!  

[SmokeyR67]

1 hour ago, Tassie said:

To address this point first ... I don't think it's anything you've done wrong.   When this sort of thing happens, it's usually the older dog teaching the puppy that   a) it's gone too far with whatever it was doing and needs some impulse control    and/or b)  that its puppy licence has run out!.  Either way, not a bad thing as long as it is appropriate and measured.

 

I would be another who would seriously counsel you against getting 2 Vizsla pups together, whether litter mates or not.    Believe me, when you're retired, you're not going to have that unlimited time you think you'll have, and also, if you're thinking in terms of performance sports down the track, that time is much better spent working on building a great relationship with one pup, learning who that pup is, and adjusting expectations accordingly.   Then probably look at getting another pup when the initial one is about 2 or 3, and well settled into your routines.   That will seriously help the next pup, as they do a lot of learning by mimicry.

 

I probably wouldn't be planning in so much detail, but in general, most of what you plan for helping the pup to get used to the world is fine .. although depending on the age of your nephew, I would be a bit cautious about just letting boy and pup loose together.   The same thing applies to play dates with older dogs... they need to be carefully supervised to protect a youngster from over exerting, or damaging a growing body.    You need to protect the pup from getting over the top excited (good luck with that from the Vizslas I've known), and from doing too much physical stuff too soon.   I haven't done puppy pre-school with any puppy I've had .. partly a timing thing, and partly because some of them are not very useful or good for the puppy.

 

I probably wouldn't be letting your pup be on the ground in a park where a lot of dogs have been until 2nd vac (C5), but by all means drive the pup to lots of places where you can sit and let pup observe all sorts of people and things.   And you can be observing pup's reactions to strange people, objects, noises etc.

 

Thanks Tassie,

 

I do have a tendency to over think things, I take medication for it but I still have a bit of OCD:)  - I will build a new set of steps so the pup can learn to climb them, I have a standard 1 story brick veneer home, so the dogs may never even see a staircase, but you never know

 

I think playing with the local dogs (the labrawotsy and beagle bitches) will be fine once the pup is fully vacced, They're both sweethearts, and neither are large or boisterous.(well, the doodle dog sort of is, but she's so fluffy and runs in circles, so any impact is shock absorbed)

I would love to take pups over a small foot bridge fairly early on, I've had a big strong fearless GSD pull up and refuse to cross a tiny bridge once, the poor bugger was absolutely quivering with fear, and this was a dog that chased lightning and told thunder to shut the hell up:) I might build a little bridge from pvc pipe in the backyard - not an ideal solution, but at least it a start.

 

My nephew is 12 or 13, he's a good lad, loves animals, so I trust him to look after a pup, and when I let he and his mates go crazy, it'll be well supervised, with the pup at my feet until I'm confident that the lads are tired and the pup is confident.

 

I need to balance my desire to have the pup well socialised and my over protective instinct. (my last bitch was over socialised if thats possible:) )

 

Now, getting back to the retirement thing, I'm worried that you all think I'll be too busy to devote half my life to raising dogs! If that's the case, why did I spend the best years of my life scrimping and saving for retirement:(

[SmokeyR67]

24 minutes ago, Scrappi&Monty said:

We adopted Monty (who was a 6mth old) when Scrappi was 6 years old, and they are the best of friends. They are actually a little bit too bonded as they sometimes get distressed when the other is away. 

So even though there is a big age gap they are still like peas in a pod!  

Maybe thats the issue, I've only ever had a young bitch (less than 2) and a new 8 week old pup...maybe I need to let my girls mature before I get a second dog?

[Roova]

This is a great article on the work involved with two puppies. If you're up for the task kudos to you! 

 

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_1/features/Problems-Adopting-Two-Puppies-At-Once_16190-1.html

Edited July 16, 2017 by Roova

[Rascalmyshadow]

13 minutes ago, SmokeyR67 said:

Maybe thats the issue, I've only ever had a young bitch (less than 2) and a new 8 week old pup...maybe I need to let my girls mature before I get a second dog?

In my experience living in a multi dog house for so many years getting a male and letting him mature, then introducing a female works best, not the other way around.

Ive found the boys to be more easy going and more tolerant of pups.

If we were down to no dogs that would be my plan.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Rascalmyshadow

[SmokeyR67]

Thx Roova, your artical has reinforced popular opinion, mad me have a couple of rebelious seconds, and then settle down and think, ok, first one at 8 weeks, second at 8 +26

 

Back to the topic, socialisation aka giving your furry bundle of joy the best possible chance of being a valued member of society (or just a cuddly mate who doesnt want to kill the neighbours)

 

1. A trip to the vet just for a cuddle.

2. A play in a baby bath.

3. Foot rubs, with a file or clippers (no cutting)

4. Meet the public - a trip to the local firies or ambos (I suggest firies all they do is play volleyball and brag about their hoses)

5. Puppy playgroup - Ladies, you can say how cute, Men, I'll have 5 bucks on the foxie to try and shag...any and or all of em!

 

Post vaccs

1. the park

2. the local shops (single girls, this is where you look the hottest, single guys...ditto)

3.If you still have the key you should have handed in when you retired - an office block elevator (lots of cuddles needed)

4. a walk around the block (I like to ring everyones door bell when I have a new pup, but thats optional)

5. Visit the local Stables (let the pup meet the nicest mare)

 

Optional, but desirable

 

1. Put a harness on the dog, sunglasses on your face and do your shopping at Coles or Woolies

2. On a Sunday, take a walk through the city centre (can be combined with #1)

3. Go to your local Army barracks, and with a bit of luck your dog will be adored by a Battalion while clanky old vehicles rock and roll in the background - this might take a call to the local PR Officer, if you want to do it, let me know, I'll give you his number:)

4. Sit outside your local church after Mass - the challenge is to make sure your pup doesn't jump.

5. Take your dog to the local produce/pet shop, Keep a loose leash and let them explore the wonderful scents

 

Now, back to that retirement thing...I wont have time to do what????

[SmokeyR67]

Thanks Rascal,

 

Ive only once had an older dog and introduced a younger bitch, He was a very protective GSD, she was a rescue. It took a few months of heartache, but we found the rescue girl a new home on a farm, where she was scared of sheep, but she ended up being a house dog

[Rascalmyshadow]

What was the age difference? And how old was your rescue girl when you brought her home?

Remember sometimes personalities just clash much like people age and gender don't always matter.

 

Although it's worked very well for us only once it didn't and it was the worst situation ever, we had a hand raised, very protective older mini poodle boy and his best mate a mini poodle girl two years his junior, we introduced a female American bulldog pup, he hated her from day one, as she matured we had a few altercations, the last one she didn't back down (for the first time) and would have killed him, we sent her to a friends immediately, spent a lot in vet bills for my boy and she ended up being rehomed with a bigger male dog and they became best mates.

 

Glad your taking everything on board.

Good luck with it all, we've only once had two dogs under 12 months old and I will admit I would never do it again and I have had anything between 2 and 7 dogs in my house over the last 20 years.

[SmokeyR67]

Rascal my GSD was middle aged, maybe 6 or 7, and he'd been through a lot, 2 hip replacements (my bank account to a hit on that too!) and she was young, 12 or 18 months old. She was a cattle dog, not by breed but by design, and whilst she was a lovely dog, she was very very annoying, She did have a decent life, trying to herd pigs

[Papillon Kisses]

Relieved to hear you have rethought getting two puppies at the same time.

 

In terms of socialisation, one mistake commonly made is to confuse it with exposure. You need the experiences to be positive or if not positive then neutral. So watch your puppy's body language closely.

 

Here's a few resources that may help with your planning:

Sophia Yin's Socialisation Checklist and an article

Sound Proof Puppy Training App

Puppy Culture

Dogstar Daily

AVSAB Position Statement