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Good for her :) A decision to use an e-collar .


persephone
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Not posted for any argument - an interesting little blog  , and an insight . :) 

http://bad-dogs-gone-good.com/2017/07/when-a-positive-trainer-goes-to-the-dark-side/

excerpt :

 

 

Quote

 

I later discussed the training with a colleague of mine, and she asked me how I felt ethically about my decision and training – I had caused my dog pain, on purpose. I said I felt fine because I had potentially saved my dog’s life, and it was unethical for me to not use my knowledge and skills. The pain of a permanent injury or death far outweighed the pain of a shock, and he was still being rewarded for the desired behavior – it only took 3 shocks for Mulder to understand that not coming when called carried a consequence. We did his training out in the pasture – he is not afraid of the pasture, nor myself, nor putting on the collar.

I am going to be judged on this blog post – I might as well be tied to the stake and burnt because I use an e-collar on my dog, following the least intrusive, minimally aversive protocol and the science and application of learning theory.

 

 

Edited by persephone
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judicious use of an e collar  I have no problem with at all. sadly many people  use them because they are LAZY and not willing to put in thed time for training. I confess that I have used an e collar. I had a young female maremma who would not be quiet, ever  she even barked between mouthfulls of food.  After months of no success I eventually placed her + e collar  in the  pen beside the yard, where i could see her,  one day  with the e collar was all it took to  remind her that she had an off button.  she still barked - a lot- but would quieten for long periods and was  like a different girl..much more relaxed ( no not shut down) and a great guardian.  confession over.

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Personally - I'm happy to go with what Bob Bailey says - the only time he will use aversives (eg an ecollar) is when safety is involved either for  the critter or the handler.   But he'd much rather set up the environment for success and use rewards because in his experience, it's faster, and more reliable.  He wouldn't even recommend it for training a dog to stay away from snakes.
 

And if you're crap with mechanics and using rewards - it's more forgiving that getting your timing wrong with aversives.
 

I have seen professional trainers achieve good success with "escape training" using e-collars or prong collars but I don't think I could do what they do with such great timing.  

I'm much more a fan of Leslie Nelson's "Really reliable recall" ie pavlov (aka classical) conditioning.

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I have no issue with E collars used correctly and have good success with them.

I have used and still use E collars on Jonah and Jesse with a program from Steve Courtney, as for the subject of pain, the level that works on them is barely perceptible to me on my neck I also tested a few on myself before I settled on the model I bought which feels like a Tens machine.

 

 

Jonah

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I don't think she can say it has worked any better than his previous recall training until she tests it in the same situation again. She says he had great recall before, and I'm sure he did, but in the near miss with the car incident she refers to a new stimulus over-rode that training. It still seems entirely possible that the situation could arise again where a new stimulus could over-ride the effect of the e-collar. That's not a criticism of the e-collar, it's a reality of any training but I don't find what is said in that blog enough to indicate that the e-collar has been any more effective than the previous training she had done.

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I have two problems with e-collars (1) idiots mis-use them. In the hands of a properly trained professional, that is not a problem - but a lot of people think they are  trained professionals who aren't and may use them more often than a last resort. (2) this may be due to over-use by idiots but some dogs learn to obey when the e-collar is worn and please themselves when it is not.

SG your point is right on target.
Maybe the e-collar refresher would give the trainer more confidence so that she might be calmer in the face of a similar distraction, but whether it really strongly reinforced the dog's trainer better than a positive reinforcement refresher is a moot point. (I suspect her panic might have been read as excitement by the dog, reinforcing the road kill joy. I could well be wrong there though.)

Edited by RuralPug
fat finger typos sigh
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If you feel like you need to punish a behaviour, an e-collar is a powerful tool that can be used with a finesse that is beyond really any other form of punishment. I wouldn't judge a trainer for deciding they need one, but it's extremely unprofessional to sell them to clients in a state (e.g. NSW) where they are actually illegal to use. Whether they ought to be illegal to use is another issue entirely. 

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Illegal in SA as well - just placing an e-collar on an animal [whether off or on] is a $10k fine or up to a year imprisonment.  Sad really as there is snake deterrent training using e-collars, but can't do it here.

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15 hours ago, Tempus Fugit said:

So how are SA police dogs and the military dogs that guard the raaf base trained to release from a bite?

Not with an e collar but giving them something better to do. 

Steve White (police dog trainer in the USA) has a whole system that involves first bite sleeve man being boring and the dog being re-directed to a different bite sleeve man over there.    And gradually learning to respond to the cue and recall because he learns - he gets what he really wants when he does.

http://www.proactivek9.com/an-obstinate-k9/#more-217

“I can’t believe it! I’ve never seen him stop like that, even when we nuked him with an electronic collar.”  
(e-collars don't work for call offs or outs).

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