Kodi: why is this forum quiet about it?

[RuralPug]

51 minutes ago, casowner said:

I'm stuck on why there are so few damnations on this purebred dog forum about this dog being back yard bred after the incident, the situation is tragic but profiteering isn't something that sits well for me

Frankly I think that the backyard breeding is an entirely separate issue. Certainly this forum could damn all breeding for a sole profit motive, but that should not be allowed to cloud the basic issue of whether pets should be condemned automatically for incidents directly arising from trespassers on the pet's property,.

[PossumCorner]

Also the Forum (sadly) has shrunk, I guess as people wander off to group hugs or whatever, and there just isn't the breadth of experience, opinion and discussion running through threads as once was. 

[Simply Grand]

On 14 August 2017 at 4:21 PM, casowner said:

I'm stuck on why there are so few damnations on this purebred dog forum about this dog being back yard bred after the incident, the situation is tragic but profiteering isn't something that sits well for me

Like RP says, it's a completely separate issue. Backyard breeding isn't illegal, whether we like it or not, and him being bred has nothing to do with the attack.

 

Does the Tas legislation require a declared dangerous dog to be desexed? If so, wouldn't he have had to have been bred before the attack happened, meaning it is even less relevant to the issue. If they are required to be desexed and the owner somehow bred him between when the attack happened and when he was declared that would be different.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Simply Grand

[~Anne~]

I don't understand why the dog was euthanised for 'depression'. 

 

How big was the pen it was contained to? Thousands of dogs, every day in Australia,  live some of their time confined to crates, kennels, yards and runs.  

 

I'm sure I'm missing something. 

[persephone]

On 14/08/2017 at 5:16 PM, RuralPug said:

I'm stuck on why there are so few damnations on this purebred dog forum about this dog being back yard bred

maybe because it is unimportant  in the scheme of things ? The alleged violence is the  subject  of interest/outrage  as I see it .. 

[RuralPug]

4 hours ago, ~Anne~ said:

I don't understand why the dog was euthanised for 'depression'. 

 

How big was the pen it was contained to? Thousands of dogs, every day in Australia,  live some of their time confined to crates, kennels, yards and runs.  

 

I'm sure I'm missing something. 

The owner has said (over several months) that the dog was being treated (I assume by a vet behaviourist) for PTSD after the trauma of the attack. Previous to the attack he was (as evidenced by neighbours and friends) a happy go-lucky type dog, after the attack he was terrified of strangers and also fretted deeply at the change from being able to roam his secure house yard when the owners was at work to being secured in the mandatory small run. 
It may have also been the case (conjecture on my part, OK?) that his owner was  so shattered by the attack and by it's aftermath that her dog picked up on those feelings and was even more miserable. 
One thing is certain and that is his quality of life was such that it became unfair to allow it to continue. His owner spent a lot of money on veterinary care etc. and was shattered anew herself when euthanasia became the only option.

[Rozzie]

On 8/16/2017 at 7:54 AM, ~Anne~ said:

I don't understand why the dog was euthanised for 'depression'. 

 

How big was the pen it was contained to? Thousands of dogs, every day in Australia,  live some of their time confined to crates, kennels, yards and runs.  

 

I'm sure I'm missing something. 

The pen was supplied by GSD rescue Tasmania, as far as I am aware. Presumably it was large enough for a Shepherd.

 

 

 

Oh, and actually both boys were named in the media.

[~Anne~]

Thanks RuralPug. 

 

I can understand the dog may have been affected by the episode and this would have lead to potential behavioural changes, but PTSD? Seriously? It's a dog, not a human. PTSD is a serious health issue for humans and it's not, to my knowledge, a condition recognised in veterinary science and attributed to canines. Just how do they measure it, in dogs? 

 

The fact that the dog didn't cope with the change in its freedom is understandable, and even changes in behaviour after anything traumatic for the dog are also understandable, but you don't think there's a serious case of anthropomorphism here? 

 

Its sad that a dog is now dead but I've got to wonder when words like PTSD are thrown around to describe the condition of the dog and the reason why it was euthanised. Either way, it seems an awful situation for the dog, it's owners and the boys and their families. 

[persephone]

Hmmm. Re the PTS

Many years ago, a youngish lab managed to escape a house fire by jumping thru a glass window. 

For a long time after, he used to wake at night screaming.This was put down as him having nightmares.  He had never done this prior to that night. PTS  was not mentioned back then ,in the early 80s

I believe dogs can and do suffer a form of PTS. 

They amazingly long memories,can make their own decisions,and can experience strong emotion. Why not ?

 

[RuralPug]

Yes it was an awful situation.
It was the vet team that diagnosed PTSD in the dog, it did surprise me I admit, as I was used to behavioural problems after trauma in dogs  being called "issues stemming from trauma" LOL.
Apparently PTSD is known in dogs and is diagnosed when a severe trauma creates neurological symptoms as well as behavioral ones.  This case was the first time I had heard of a PTSD diagnosis in a dog and it did send me to Google, where I found it was a real canine illness. We live and learn!

[~Anne~]

Thanks Peres and RuralPug. That does surprise me. PTSD in humans is used to describe a range of mental health associated problems experienced after trauma. I'll head off to do some research. All I can think is that it is describing a very different set of symptoms and causes, given a canine's brain does not function in the same way as a human's. 

[cannibalgoldfish]

Quote

I believe dogs can and do suffer a form of PTS. 

I don't know if you would call it PTS but when Loki was 2 he escaped the yard and was hit by a car and fractured his hip in two places. After he healed it took months to get over his fear if he heard or saw a car driving past. He was never scared of cars before this, by the way. But for the next 2 or 3 years after that he would have random "moments" every now and then. He would be walking along fine and then just stop. He would refuse to move and stand there shaking. If there was a seat near by I would sit down and he would climb up onto my lap (he has never been a lap dog!) and lean into me, shove his face under my arm and start crying/whimpering. I'd sit there and cuddle him and then he would pull himself together and we would go on with our walk. If I couldn't sit down with him I'd just have to wait while he stood there and shook. (It wasn't a fit) He only did this if we were walking near a busy road and not every walk. I used to call it "His flashbacks to 'Nam" 

He eventually got over it but even now 13 years later he still shies away and drops his tail if a particularly loud car or truck drives past. I don't know if it was PTSD but the accident definitely messed with his mind long after his bones healed. 

[Little Gifts]

Dogs can definately have experiences that cause them to develop and carry fears. And if those fears can't be managed then I guess the level of anxiety when triggered will increase. I'm not sure I like the use of the term for animals but Isn't that relevant to PTSD in humans too? There are negative experiences and triggers that take them back to how they feel about those negative experiences?

 

I still remember a lady on a doco talking about a Michael Vicks bait dog she'd adopted. She said her pit bull didn't need to be rehabilitated, it just needed time to recover from its ordeal. I think that is very true of some dogs who have experienced loss and pain. It's like they need to put distance between them and the incident and they need stability, support and guidance to rely on when their own instincts fail them. All that makes them quite vulnerable in their world. And given the bond dogs have with humans I can imagine some are really affected when their trust in a human is broken in a savage way. Imagine you are a dog thinking you are doing your job by protecting your property and you are rewarded for that by being threatened and injured and isolated from the family you care about most, all by us humans. It must be very confusing for some dogs. But is it PTSD as we know it in humans or does it just mimick it?

[moosmum]

I.M.O if symptoms mimic the same in humans, from  similar sets of conditions, then to all intents and purposes its the same.

 

While I an happy to treat Dogs as Dogs, not as furry people, and agree thats mostly not in the best interests of either,  We are all just animals of different sorts, so a lot of the terms we use to explain or describe behavior is interchangeable.

Research into conciouness seems to indicate that there is less separation between humans and other animals than most assume.

 

The Cambridge Declaration of Conciousness is a 'recent' result that hasn't had the attention it deserves

[Akayla]

Dogs suffering from psychological trauma has been known about for ages.  You just need to look at dogs that suffered after 911 or dogs coming back from war zones.  Not all but it definitely exists.  If the military has been aware of it for such a long time I think we can safely assume that dogs suffer from it and not all recover either.  

 

Whether or not this dog suffered from such a thing I have no idea but when I worked in a shelter some dogs would deteriorate after time.  Their mental health just wouldn't cope even with regular walks and yard time.  Depending on the dog, being stuck in an enclosure outside could be crippling, especially after being hurt in such a way.    

[PossumCorner]

On ‎19‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 8:30 PM, cannibalgoldfish said:

 ....  I used to call it "His flashbacks to 'Nam" ....

....  I don't know if it was PTSD but the accident definitely messed with his mind.... 

Not replying to this post particularly, just in general.  I don't like calling a dog's follow up reaction PTSD.  It's not mental illness, it's pain or trauma memory, two different things.

 

I was in Viet Nam.  I still wake up in terror, I have flashbacks to things nobody should have to see.  But I don't have PTSD, people I know do have, and you wouldn't wish it on anyone or their dog.  I just don't think it is the same as recalling bad stuff waking or sleeping.

 

Memory is memory, no-one says that remembering good stuff is mental illness.  Equally remembering bad stuff is not PTSD, its just recalling something seen or experienced.

[cannibalgoldfish]

I'm sorry if I offended you PossumCorner   I did debate with myself about how offensive it would be if I posted that's what I called it. ( it was over a decade ago.) I really ummed and arhhed.. I don't think or refer to Loki's then stressed mental state as that any more for that reason. I only wrote it as that to try to describe how certain trauma and injury can possibly effect a dogs mental state. 

If you prefer I'm happy to delete my posts. 

[PossumCorner]

No not even a little bit, all good.  I wasn't having a shot, just think it's all quite interesting the way these issues are interpreted, whether dogs or people or horses.

 

 

[Akayla]

PC I hope this doesn't come across as offensive either (please let me know if you find it so) but thought the info below is relevant for anyone interested.  

 

Canine PTSD does only effect a small number of animals.  I think it was the US military that quoted 5-10% of their dogs being effected by it.  Personally Im glad they have come up with an official diagnosis for these dogs (think it was around 2010, its recent anyway) because the flip side is how many were previously euthanised and considered unmanageable.  Now they have a plan which can be followed starting almost immediately.  Although as a leading expert on it pointed out the dog never forgets, never fully recovers.  

 

Interestingly dogs with PTSD have been found to be a huge help to retired handlers (and others) with PTSD.  The handler feels a deep connection with the canine and understands (or feels they do) where the dog is coming from.  It can give them great insight into their own condition.  The dog in return finds a home with someone who excepts their sometimes odd behaviour.  

[Jed]

Friends owned a dog which was hurt during a burglary and he was never the same again. I think it was the stabbing and viciousness directed at him which could have damaged him, not that he bit someone.  I think.