Advice for avoiding puppy scammers ??

[Woody&Julia]

Does anyone have any help full advice to avoid being scammed when buying a puppy from interstate? 

Are breeders found on dogzonline.com.au 100% trustworthy?? 

How can you ensure you will be actually receiveing a puppy after you deposit the money?? 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance 

 

W&J 

[The Spotted Devil]

To be honest, no-one buys a puppy from me without meeting me and my dogs first. In the flesh. Not negotiable. That was the requirement of my Dally breeder 10 years ago and I have taken their advice. It's about building a life long relationship between breeder and puppy buyer. Flights are cheap and it is easy to make a visit part of a work trip or holiday. I have a prospective couple coming to visit me from WA in August. Because they like my philosophy and my dogs. 

Edited June 12, 2017 by The Spotted Devil

[Dogsfevr]

A good breeder no problems but it all comes down to your research,getting everything in writing .I gather the breed your after isn't available in WA ?

DOL lol me any advertising place is never 100% guaranteed and some breeds do come with a higher risk 

[Woody&Julia]

Thanks for your advice so far. 

My partner and I had been looking for a mini longhaired dachie but there is only two breeders here in WA and no litters planed any time soon . So after more research we were told about dogzonline.com.au .

We sbasically emailed every mini longhaired dachshund breeder that was registered on DOL and after many breeder getting back to us explaining no litters planed or extremely long waiting lists . When we finally did hear back from a breeder that had just had some puppies and they are available you can imagine our excitement. 

After a phone call and a few emails back and forth including sending an info pack detailing our selfs, our home/area and lifestyle to reassure the breeder we can provide a good home for our potential puppy we paid our deposit of half of the asked price of the puppy.

A week and a half had gone past and a few emails , messages/phone calls had not been answered so we began to fear the worst (reading puppy scam storeys online only made it worse).

i emailed the breeder our concerns today and they got in contact with us straight away and appoligized for the lack of response due to family issues. They agreed to Skype and sent more photos through.

But now I'm aware of how silly we were to hand our money over so quickly due to being excited about finally finding a available puppy.

I want to be sure we will actually be receiving a puppy before I hand over any more money. 

Thanks spotted devil for your advice a quick visit would definitely be the right thing to do.

The breeder has been a member of DOL since 2014 but is not listed on http://www.dachshundclub.org.au/

Should we be so suspicious and wary?? 

[persephone]

Yes- being wary is a very good thing>
Sleuthing is also good! 

have a read here CLICK  and this !  CLICK

Google their kennel  name   
Ask them ( or look at their AD on Dogzonline) for their  DOGS  (name of state)  number .
Talk to them about what they DO with their dogs  Do they show , train for obedience , or do any other dog sports? What litters have they had in the past , and what did the puppies end up doing ? Did they get shown, were they pets ? 
Ask ( and do your homework prior) if pups are sold on limited register , or what ?  this may help you CLICK

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by persephone

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

It is good to be wary - but DOL listed breeders are not like Gumtree listings.  Ie they actually get checked here - and if someone else spots a fake or scammer on DOL - they get removed - if they ever managed to get listed in the first place.   Breeders to get listed on their ANKC breed club website - usually have to pay a fee - and it can be harder to keep updated.  Here I think it's free for a standard ad and easy for a breeder to keep it up to date - tho as you have probably found already - some don't keep basics like their email and phone numbers up to date. 

 

Breeders are humans and puppies are fragile - so sometimes things go wrong and they can't give you a puppy like they promised.   So now I would recommend - be patient, and keep in touch with the breeders.  

 

If you want to know more about them - you could try asking the ANKC affiliate in the state they are in, or look for  state specific breed club and ask them. 

 

Unfortunately it is still possible for bulk puppy breeders ie people with many many bitches to be registered with ANKC.  I get worried that those breeders are not giving their puppies enough people contact or dog socialisation and some don't do health checks for preventable diseases.    So I recommend what TSD said - that you try to meet the breeder and their dogs ahead of time - ideally somewhere neutral like a breed social event or show and then visit their place - to see what sort of environment the puppies will be brought up in and whether that suits you. 

[Dogsfevr]

There are shonky mini long breeders especially those who bred for double dapples.

First off have the parents been tested for PRA  and VWD ,what colours do they bred ,do they show,

Experience in the breed.Whats there dogs temperaments like 

As they are happy to sell East what is the agreement if the pup isn't what you expect on arrival ,refund/return policy .

 

Yep Mini Long breeders are far n few in WA (I prefer Std Longs so much more fun) .

 Not all breeders belong to there breed club and that isn't a concern .

I will send you a pm of someone to contact if your unsure 

[Rebanne]

There can be a lot of politics involved in breed clubs. That wouldn't concern me.

Really, in the end, there is no fool proof way to pay for something and guarantee you get it unless the transaction happens in person. I've sent 3 pups overseas both buyer and seller had to trust each other and we did and everything worked out fine.

[Maddy]

On 6/12/2017 at 11:30 PM, Mrs Rusty Bucket said:

It is good to be wary - but DOL listed breeders are not like Gumtree listings.  Ie they actually get checked here - and if someone else spots a fake or scammer on DOL - they get removed - if they ever managed to get listed in the first place.   Breeders to get listed on their ANKC breed club website - usually have to pay a fee - and it can be harder to keep updated.  Here I think it's free for a standard ad and easy for a breeder to keep it up to date - tho as you have probably found already - some don't keep basics like their email and phone numbers up to date. 

 

Breeders are humans and puppies are fragile - so sometimes things go wrong and they can't give you a puppy like they promised.   So now I would recommend - be patient, and keep in touch with the breeders.  

 

If you want to know more about them - you could try asking the ANKC affiliate in the state they are in, or look for  state specific breed club and ask them. 

 

Unfortunately it is still possible for bulk puppy breeders ie people with many many bitches to be registered with ANKC.  I get worried that those breeders are not giving their puppies enough people contact or dog socialisation and some don't do health checks for preventable diseases.    So I recommend what TSD said - that you try to meet the breeder and their dogs ahead of time - ideally somewhere neutral like a breed social event or show and then visit their place - to see what sort of environment the puppies will be brought up in and whether that suits you. 

Checked for what, exactly? Having an ad on Dol doesn't make someone ethical, it just means they've proven that they are a member of their state body.
I think people need to be aware that the bigger risk is not scammers but breeders who don't do the right thing. A scammer is easy to uncover (whether they're shipping the dog from a Nigerian prince's house or somewhere more local), but buy a puppy from a breeder who doesn't GAF and good luck figuring it all out by yourself, with the next 10+ years to regret not being more scrupulous in your research. 

OP, I think you're perhaps being a tad pushy. If someone nagged me via messages for a week and a half and then accused me of being a scammer, I'd politely tell them to go.. well, you know. That said, if the breeder is consistently difficult to contact, I'd look elsewhere because when you run into problems with the puppy, the last thing you'll want is a breeder who takes a month to reply to emails. 

 

[karen15]

IMO the best way to avoid puppy scammers is to plan your purchase. By that I mean research breeders, contact ones you like well in advance of getting a puppy, develop a relationship with them. What I would never do is email every breeder I could find and go with the one that has pups now. Why not? Firstly what do you know about the breeder and their dogs? What do you know about their dogs health, health of prior litters etc etc Secondly you're handing over a lot of money to a total stranger who may or may not have actual dogs. It's a very easy scam to wait for a desperate person to call wanting a pup now. Puppy pics are easily sourced and sent, the buyer can be reeled in by a pup suddenly becoming available and having to pay now to secure it or it goes to the next person on the list.

 

animals are a commitment and I believe in taking time to find the right one for me, not the first one that comes up.

[westiemum]

I'm not a breeder but agree that given the long-term commitment that a new puppy entails, its absolutely worth the airfare (s) to eyeball the interstate breeder and their dogs.  Well worth the effort to reassure yourself before you handover any more money.  And if the breeder suddenly gets all cagey and won't commit to a personal visit, run a mile and consider 'lesson learned'.   

 

While you are probably fairly safe on DOL due to the increased vetting of advertisers its not infallible - but certainly much better than Gumtree.  You'll be very pleased you made the trip - and you could bring your new puppy home at the same time accompanied 'baggage'  by air.  Good luck and don't forget to post pics!   

Edited June 16, 2017 by westiemum

[RuralPug]

7 hours ago, westiemum said:

I'm not a breeder but agree that given the long-term commitment that a new puppy entails, its absolutely worth the airfare (s) to eyeball the interstate breeder and their dogs.  Well worth the effort to reassure yourself before you handover any more money.  And if the breeder suddenly gets all cagey and won't commit to a personal visit, run a mile and consider 'lesson learned'.   

 

While you are probably fairly safe on DOL due to the increased vetting of advertisers its not infallible - but certainly much better than Gumtree.  You'll be very pleased you made the trip - and you could bring your new puppy home at the same time accompanied 'baggage'  by air.  Good luck and don't forget to post pics!   

I have recently bought a puppy, sight unseen, except for photos, from interstate. I was not prepared to fly to Darwin and back and travel from there to the breeder's home. What I did do: I asked so many questions that LOL the breeder actually thought that I was an ANKC spy and not a genuine inquirer! The breeder shows dogs and that made it easy for me because I was able to ask around my show friends who had show friends in NT who had met the breeder and seen his home and were able to give him a glowing report re welfare/ethics. 
It works both ways - the breeder asked me for references from people in the dog world - so I gave him a few. He checked with one that he knew and one that was a stranger to him and apparently I ticked all the boxes there.

Obviously the dog world connections will not work for the average joe public pet buyer - I just mention all this to help people understand why dog world people are happy to buy interstate sight unseen but always warn pet buyers against it.

So what can you do if you want to buy a puppy from interstate but don't have dog world connections and are not prepared/logistics don't allow you to travel there? Ask the breeder if it is alright if a friend of yours (can even be imaginary if you don't have friends or relatives in that state) can visit to look at the puppies. If the breeder says no way and can't give you a good reason, do not proceed with the purchase and look elsewhere for your puppy,

I have heard a rumour of one person who actually phoned the breeder's shire spoke to the ranger who actually went and visited the breeder (oops the dogs were not registered but were healthy and clean).I'm not sure that many rangers would actually do this so that person was lucky!
 

[karen15]

Just thinking about this and remembered a scam the guy I got the cocker from told me about. Apparently a group of people were advertising pure bred dogs. When people wanted to come and meet the parents, a ring in would be used. I think he got caught thinking he was getting a golden retriever but it turned out to be crossed with a lab and not pure as he was led to believe when he viewed the parents. Not sure how he found out it was a cross. But honest people really don't think like that, so it's so easy to get caught out unless you've done your research.

[Airedaler]

I know of breeders listed on DOL that, while not scammers, are less than ethical. Many of these are puppy farmers without the welfare issues but they have no idea about the breed in terms of the Breed Standard and have no involvement in the breed. They still sell as suitable for show from quality stock but have no basis for this as their dogs have never been evaluated by anyone other than them self. Some of them provide no back up for the puppy buyers in terms of grooming requirements etc, basically because they don't know what to do. I might add some of these so called breeders are also listed on the Dogs Victoria Breeders List so obviously there is no accountability there either.

 

I know there are excellent breeders who are not members of their breed club but IMO it is still worth contacting the Breed Club which usually has a finger on the pulse about decent breeders and those less so.

[asal]

its not that simple, I know a breeder that had not shown any of their dogs since the 1980's . just wasnt interested in the show scene, fast farward to 2016

 

Let a youngster keen to show have pick of a litter and it has won some 7 best in shows for its thrilled owner. so just because someone is not interested in the show scene is no true indicator of the quality of what they have.

[Rebanne]

I've helped 2 people avoid scammers in the last week. If they offer to send you a pup and you only have to pay for the transport up front and pay for the pup once you have it, it's a scam. I think they think people will be less likely to do something if they "only" lose the transport cost. Luckily both lots of potential puppy buyers asked questions. Oh and if the sale price is too good to be true, then it's usually a scam.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Quote

If they offer to send you a pup and you only have to pay for the transport up front

they might be a scammer if ... you ask to see the puppy that is supposedly in the same town as you and they say it  is now in some town on the other side of the country, and when you offer to send someone you know in that town to check on the puppy - suddenly it's not in the country - erm.  And then you might as well give up because if you're going to import a puppy,  you definitely want lots of word of mouth recommendations from people you know face to face - like local breeders of that kind of dog. 

There was some Australian scammer in a NSW country town fairly recently that was advertising puppies, taking money and then failing to deliver.  She got in trouble for fraud...   But there's lots of overseas scammers.

 

DOL can be a great help to put pressure on the teleport puppies...  cos there is at least one Doler pretty much everywhere in Oz and a few other places too.

[asal]

21 hours ago, Airedaler said:

I know of breeders listed on DOL that, while not scammers, are less than ethical. Many of these are puppy farmers without the welfare issues but they have no idea about the breed in terms of the Breed Standard and have no involvement in the breed. They still sell as suitable for show from quality stock but have no basis for this as their dogs have never been evaluated by anyone other than them self. Some of them provide no back up for the puppy buyers in terms of grooming requirements etc, basically because they don't know what to do. I might add some of these so called breeders are also listed on the Dogs Victoria Breeders List so obviously there is no accountability there either.

 

I know there are excellent breeders who are not members of their breed club but IMO it is still worth contacting the Breed Club which usually has a finger on the pulse about decent breeders and those less so.

That is another problem, fellow members of the ankc tend to brand those who are not interested in  showing as you just said, puppy farmers.

 

Watching that movie last night about the man who broke the enigma code during the war and how he was bullied at school, think we tend to think but bullying ceases after you leave school, when in fact it still manifests  in for example among ANKC members, a percentage of members  who show tend to not only look down on those who choose not to show, but a percentage feel the need to make complaints to the rspca in hopes the resulting harrassment will get them to give up and leave.

 

I was pretty aghast some years after the incident when my dog stringy was seized to discover the person who made the call to the rspca was none other than someone who I had considered a friend and fellow member of the chihuahua club and who used to play with him at meetings.  She decided because I didn't show my dogs it was her duty to make the call that almost had him die from the injuries he received whilst they tried to find something they could charge me with. I only found out because she told a circle of what she thought was trusted friends that she had done so not realising two were also friends of mine. It was hard to forgive but no sense in carrying a grudge.

 

interestingly some years later someone did the same to her although many of her dogs were champions, NO i was not me, no way I could bring myself to put another through what happened to me. Bullying is still alive and well unfortunately.

 

I like pollyanna's thinking, we all need to work together for the good of the breeds, instead of sniping at those who hear a different drum and choose not to march to the tune you prefer

 

Need to take a leaf from the Peta types and work together like they are.

 

 

[Airedaler]

4 hours ago, asal said:

That is another problem, fellow members of the ankc tend to brand those who are not interested in  showing as you just said, puppy farmers.

The ones I am branding as "puppy farmers" are the ones that have over a quarter of all pups bred in the breed over a year on a regular basis. One breeder (of about 10 breeding the breed) breeding that many pups without offering or knowing how to give any significant back up to those who buy their puppies is IMO a puppy farmer.

 

It has nothing to do with showing or not showing and my original comment probably should have read participation rather than showing. I would expect any breeder breeding a significant number of pups to be able to give back up on health, grooming, training and breed history etc. to their buyers.

 

And yes, asal your are very correct in saying we need to take a leaf from peta type organisations and learn to work together because if we don't we, the purebred dog world, are doomed.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Airedaler