Dog crying for no reason?

[enna]

I have a 16 year old dog that has been crying or howling in short bursts for almost a year. It mostly happens at night, and mostly starts soon after eating, though not every time. It doesn’t seem like she is in pain, but more confused/in distress. The noise is similar to the noise she would make if she discovered her favourite toy was behind a shut door. It can last anywhere from 30 seconds to 30 minutes or so, though there are small breaks of quiet in there. If she is lying down she will sometimes sit up, and if she has her toy with her she will sometimes repeatedly pick it up and then drop it again, whilst crying. It can happen a few times in one day, or not at all for a week.

 

We’ve been to the vet multiple times and they think she has ‘canine brain aging’ and so we have trialled her on a medication for that, Selegiline, which I thought was making some difference, but now I’m not sure. It’s hard to tell as the crying is somewhat random anyway - she tends to do it for a few days and then not do it for a few days, and there isn’t any real pattern to it. She does perhaps seem slightly more alert since starting the medication.

 

Mostly I’m asking if anyone has had a similar experience with their dog because whilst I trust my vet, I am not 100% sure that what my dog has is caused by canine brain aging. The crying is the only symptom. She doesn’t pace, doesn’t seem confused in any other circumstances, doesn’t go to the wrong side of doorways, doesn’t go stand in corners, hasn’t lost her toilet training etc. The fact that it seems related to eating is what makes me wonder. 

 

She has had stomach problems in the past that were related to diet. This stopped once we started her on Royal Canine’s Hypoallergenic diet. It’s not at all similar to what happens to her now, but I do wonder at the connection to food. She had a dental a few months (up to a year?) before she started crying like this, but the vet has checked her teeth multiple times since then, and I brush her teeth daily.

 

Her health otherwise is pretty good for her age. Her last blood test showed a slightly elevated liver enzyme, but the vet said it’s not high enough to worry about, and there are no symptoms of liver disease. She has some mammary cysts that I check regularly. Her vision is not what it once was, but the only time it seems to bother her is at night when the lights are off and she wants to go down stairs. 

 

If anyone has had a similar experience, or has any advice, I’d be really grateful. It seems to distress her, and does interrupt my sleep so it'd be great if it was something we could fix.

[Papillon Kisses]

The first thing I thought was Canine Cognitive Dysfuntion (doggy dementia) too. The thing is that it's a progressive disease that presents differently in each dog, so you may only see a symptom or two to start and not ever see the whole gamut of behaviours that you read about. So you're seeing crying, confusion/distress, some repetitive behaviours and nighttime anxiety. Other symptoms may or may not come in time.

 

The timing is interesting, but it is common for dementia patients to be anxious and have increased confusion at nighttime. If you think it's diet or GI related, perhaps you could try a different hypoallergenic prescription diet and/or see an internal medicine specialist. Does eating at different times produce the same effect? Perhaps that might give an indication. Ask your vet.

 

How long has she been on Seleginine? It's my understanding that it can take some time to see whether meds like these are working, as in weeks or months. Early on you can get an indication of benefit but not the full impact. There are other medications that you could try too if Seleginine doesn't seem to be helping enough, though the positive things you are seeing are great. The thing is that it's not a one-size-fits-all sort of a disease... an absence of the amount of progress you'd prefer doesn't mean the diagnosis is necessarily wrong (if that thought has crossed your mind).

 

I would highly recommend consulting a veterinary behaviourist. That's a vet with additional qualifications in behaviour, kind of like a psychiatrist. They also rule out illnesses that masquerade as behaviour issues.

 

Some calming things that may help at night:

- a crate that's dark and decked out with comfy blankets etc. Not to lock her in at all, just as a den.

- a thundershirt or other body wrap

- Through A Dog's Ear albums. I use them with my dog and they really do work! There are even specific ones for geriatric dogs dealing with brain issues.

- Adaptil diffuser or collar

 

Please don't give any calming/anxiety treats or supplements without consulting a vet. They can interact dangerously with prescription medications, negating their effects or causing worsening illness or other problems.

 

I'm so sorry that you're going through this. Seeing our pets in distress is awful.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Papillon Kisses

[Scottsmum]

Lots of good points fron PK above. We've recently been through this.  I think the big thing is that every medication works differently, but especially in dementia. We were using vivitonin & it wss really amazing - until it wasnt. You can get diets fror CCD (Aging). Im on my phone at the moment but will try to pop back much later today. 

[Taliecat]

On 2017-4-26 at 0:07 AM, Papillon Kisses said:

The first thing I thought was Canine Cognitive Dysfuntion (doggy dementia) too. The thing is that it's a progressive disease that presents differently in each dog, so you may only see a symptom or two to start and not ever see the whole gamut of behaviours that you read about. So you're seeing crying, confusion/distress, some repetitive behaviours and nighttime anxiety. Other symptoms may or may not come in time.

 

The timing is interesting, but it is common for dementia patients to be anxious and have increased confusion at nighttime. If you think it's diet or GI related, perhaps you could try a different hypoallergenic prescription diet and/or see an internal medicine specialist. Does eating at different times produce the same effect? Perhaps that might give an indication. Ask your vet.

 

How long has she been on Seleginine? It's my understanding that it can take some time to see whether meds like these are working, as in weeks or months. Early on you can get an indication of benefit but not the full impact. There are other medications that you could try too if Seleginine doesn't seem to be helping enough, though the positive things you are seeing are great. The thing is that it's not a one-size-fits-all sort of a disease... an absence of the amount of progress you'd prefer doesn't mean the diagnosis is necessarily wrong (if that thought has crossed your mind).

 

I would highly recommend consulting a veterinary behaviourist. That's a vet with additional qualifications in behaviour, kind of like a psychiatrist. They also rule out illnesses that masquerade as behaviour issues.

 

Some calming things that may help at night:

- a crate that's dark and decked out with comfy blankets etc. Not to lock her in at all, just as a den.

- a thundershirt or other body wrap

- Through A Dog's Ear albums. I use them with my dog and they really do work! There are even specific ones for geriatric dogs dealing with brain issues.

- Adaptil diffuser or collar

 

Please don't give any calming/anxiety treats or supplements without consulting a vet. They can interact dangerously with prescription medications, negating their effects or causing worsening illness or other problems.

 

I'm so sorry that you're going through this. Seeing our pets in distress is awful.

Fabulous post PK. Exactly the information I wanted to convey, but you put it so much more eloquently.

[enna]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Papillon Kisses - she's been on the Selegiline since late December. Our original plan was to try a small dose and increase it if there was no improvement, and if there was still no improvement to try another medication altogether (I forget what that medication is, but have it written down somewhere). Since we've seen some improvement we've decided with our vet to stay on the dosage for now as an increase will also increase the likelihood of stomach upset etc. which she is prone to. 

 

Even though her crying happens near eating, my hunch is that it's not diet/GI related. It does seem to be confusion, not pain. When she had stomach problems her symptoms were worse, and more varied, and she had diarrhoea frequently, often with blood or mucous. I read something in passing about hepatic encephalopathy which supposedly causes similar symptoms (confusion, crying, but also a lot of others) that are exacerbated by eating, and considering she had some off tests with her liver I asked our vet about it, but was told that the symptoms would probably be much worse  if that was the problem.

Changing her main meal to the morning does make the crying happen slightly less often - I think - but it doesn't stop it. I have asked the vet about it and she seemed to not take the connection too seriously, she said that perhaps she just doesn't handle hunger well now that she's older. This was part of the reason I have trouble telling how well the Selegiline works, as we changed the meal time to fit in with the dosage time, and I think both may have had some effect.

 

I will look into a veterinary behaviourist and all of the other suggestions, thank you. It's hard when she gets in a state, particularly because she shows very few other signs of ageing - she still runs around like a puppy most of the time. At the moment though it is manageable, and she's still a very happy dog most of the time, so I'm thankful for that. 

 

I wasn't doubting our vet's diagnosis so much as just trying to double-check anything else it could be, because I would hate to be missing something treatable. The food connection gave me pause for thought. But from these replies it does sound like we have the right diagnosis, so we'll keep working with our vet to slow any deterioration. Thanks again.

[Scottsmum]

Enna - I can suggest a facebook group if you like - please PM me if you'd like its name. 

However, it comes with a warning - they're quite a devoted group of owners and I suffered a big of carers fatigue and guilt while I was there. They go over and beyond and (in my view) too far. 

 

As I said above, in my (limited, but current) experience, there are a number of factors, what works once might not work again, drugs may need to continue to be upped or changed. There are a number of natural or alternate treatments which can help- but as PK says - "please don't give any calming/anxiety treats or supplements without consulting a vet. They can interact dangerously with prescription medications, negating their effects or causing worsening illness or other problems.:"

My suggestion is to start researching & get to a point where you can ask your vet what they think of X or Y...  

 

[enna]

Thanks Scottsmum. I think I will do that, do some research and head into our next vet visit with some questions and hopefully some knowledge behind it. I always make sure to check with our vet before trying new supplements etc. so no worries there. I may PM you for the Facebook group down the track depending on how it all goes.

 

I do have a question for those with older dogs: as I mentioned above Dude (I know, odd name for a girl) does have some loss of vision and clouding of the eyes. Our old vet mostly dismissed it when we asked and didn't seem too concerned, but the one we are seeing now seems to think that seeing a veterinary ophthalmologist would be a good idea because cataract surgery could be an option, and helping her vision may reduce her confusion. She's had the clouding for around 6 years I think. I would like to try anything to help her, but am slightly wary of the idea of surgery at her age. I wonder if it might be more disruptive than helpful, considering she seems to see OK unless it's completely dark. Has anyone here had cataract surgery on quite an old dog? Perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself though and should see the ophthalmologist first as it may not even be an option.

[Scottsmum]

Might be worth a separate post - you might grab a few others who have "eyeball experience"

 

I think an ophthalmologist  could be a good choice, but I honestly don't know if I would go down the surgery path with a dog that age. 

[Papillon Kisses]

We had a Papillon who lived to 18 (I accidentally wrote 'loved' but that too is true!). He had poor night time sight as he aged. He didn't have eye surgery but it was never on the table due to a bad heart condition. We left night lights on for him and he had eye drops of some description. He did not have Canine Cognitive Dysfuntion that we knew of.

 

We saw an ophthalmologist recently with my current dog, an 11-12 year old Chi who has anxiety disorders (no dementia). He has some sight issues but nothing bad at this stage unless his lens luxates but that's a different issue. Anyway, the ophthalmologist we saw said that my dog's sight issues would not be worsening his anxiety and that vision changes usually happen so slowly that dogs tend to adjust pretty well. That said, he's an eye specialist not a behaviour one, and he was talking about my dog's specific situation.

 

I think a veterinary behaviourist would be a good person to ask whether surgery would help with Dude's CCD symptoms and if so whether such benefits would outweigh the risks depending on her general state of health.