Complaint about a dog breeder (Advice needed)

[nathansmith]

Hi all,

 

Who do you turn to if you would like to make a complaint about a dog breeder?.   We purchased a very expensive pedigree puppy (supposedly healthy) who we purchased with the intent to breed with.   We made it very clear to the breeder that we would like to breed with her.  At 12 months old, she experienced hereditary health issues including elbow dysplasia and double crucial ligament breakdown in both back legs.   We now cannot breed with this dog and have had to get her spayed, not to mention the very expensive surgery's that we have had to put her through.

 

We contacted the breeder who will remain anonymous and they basically told us "bad luck that's life" or return the dog to them to be put down and they would send us another puppy.  This obviously was not an option as she was already part of our family.   We are now out of pocket quite a large sum of money and feel that the breeder should refund the cost of the dog and at least some of the surgery costs.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Cheers

[Diva]

Depends what you want the outcome to be, and if you have a written contract what it says about health guarantees. Your State Department of Fair Trading or a small claims court are probably your best bet.  You could complain to the State Kennel Control but they have no power to get a better outcome for you. 

[Roova]

Did you check if the breeder had tested the parents of your puppy for avoidable health problems?  When you say supposedly healthy, what was this based on?  

 

Re breeding, hopefully if you go this track again you have an expert go over your dog before breeding to make sure it's a good example of the breed structurally.  

There are some dogs out there which are very poor examples of the breed and shouldn't be used for breeding, hopefully you really do your selecting carefully.  

Temperament and health are very important too of course.  Good luck getting your situation resolved.

[persephone]

This is a tricky one , as we don't know what processes you went thru before choosing this pup from this breeder ..
 we also don't know how experienced at dealing with pedigreed  dog breeding you are , or how deeply you delved into the breeder's history before you made your choice. 
We don't know how this puppy was reared at your home .. whether the breeder  specified food/exercise amounts etc -  

All I can do is suggest you notify the kennel Council in your state , and ask them .

[Kajtek]

Not a breeder, but here is another perspective for you to consider....

• Cruciate ligament problems are commonly the result of accidents during exercise. As far as I know this is not breeding/hereditary issue. Had those in my dogs and got them fixed without any problems. Expensive? Very. You can take pet insurance to help out.
• Elbow displasia can be hereditary but it can also be caused by inappropriate exercise. Difficult to prove one way or another unless you have access to parental tests. 

[Dogsfevr]

I guess this is a good exercise in what you would do as a breeder ?

First off no animal is guaranteed to be suitable for breeding .

I gather as you brought with the intention of breeding you did a lot of homework as to why this breeder had the dogs you wanted and you ensured all health testing was for the breed done.

As a future breeder you would now that even the best hip /elbow scores is a tool no guarantee that they won't produce it so without knowing the history of said parents it's hard to say .

Cruciate can be breed or created issue you would also know using the word hereditary is not true and generally a word a crappy vet say.

What to do ,your breeder has offered you an option that you have declined .

As a future breeder this is a con of breeding but again I'm sure you have educated yourself in what can go wrong in breeding and it's not always success even with the best efforts .

 

Hard to say without knowing the breed and even what registry it's with 

if from the state control as you would already be a member you would be aware of the process and what the state body deals with .

As to whether your breeder said that well I often find there is two sides to the story .

As to an expensive puppy money should mean nothing especially if you where planning to be an ethical breeder ,purchasing a pup is not about cheap or expensive,breeding is an expensive hobby .

As mentioned many factors to consider ,was the breeder given the option of a second opinion for the issues ?

Has the elbow issues been verified by one of the main readers ?

What grading where the cruciate wad ?

Generally breeders sell with a puppy sales contract outlining there process,as mentioned insurance should cover a lot if you took it out on your expensive puppy .

If you want money back then it will be small claims court 

 

[tdierikx]

As others have said, there is the possibility that environmental factors can play a part in both cruciate and elbow issues... so, unless the vet is willing to write a report stating beyond any doubt that these issues in your dog are 100% hereditory/genetic, the I'm afraid you may not have any case against the breeder...

 

Without knowing the breed (large or small), it's hard to pinpoint whether there may be a genetic predisposition to developing the issues you are reporting.

 

T.

[Airedaler]

Seems to me the breeder has offered a solution that you have refused. I do not believe you can expect a refund of the price plus some of the veterinary costs as compensation and still expect to keep the "faulty" product. 

 

[Rebanne]

What breed? What were the parents health tests like? What were the scores for the parents and now for your pup both elbow and hips? Any dog can suffer from cruciate problems, it can be enviromental, same for hips/elbows. Sometimes sh!t happens you know. I had two GSD's with HD, one from many generations of very good hip scores, it happens.

[Bushriver]

It is a very unfortunate situation, but I don't believe you can expect to get your money back and keep your dog. As I understand most breeders offer a replacement pup if you have an issue with yours. A year is quite awhile for you to have had your pup, and the breeder has had no control over how she was raised. I think your breeder has offered you a reasonable offer, yes a very tough decision, but if you are planning on becomeing a breeder, you will be faced with many tough decisions. You need to decide why you want to breed and what you are willing to sacrifice and what you expect in return. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Bushriver
Spelling

[Jed]

Quote

 return the dog to them to be put down and they would send us another puppy. 

The breeder has thus abided by the law.  You need to take up this offer if you want any sort of redress.

As far as complaining goes, you may complain to the small claims court in NSW - or whatever it is called, and you may also complain to dogsnsw.

DogsNSW address is on your pedigree papers, and I suggest the situation is less than ideal  if you are considering breeding a dog without knowing anything about DogsNSW or where to complain.

 

[~Anne~]

I'd put it down to experience and move on.

 

Genetics is actually a science, and dog breeders are just people. Some people have more knowledge and understanding than others. Most are doing what they think is best in their own way and some are just doing it for the money and simply don't care. 

 

Good on you for desexing her. Many people wouldn't give a shit and would breed from her regardless. 

[Collie92]

Here's another question for everyone.

Surely its not okay for breeders to lie to a customer by telling them they have 2nd pick of the litter in order to get said customer to put down a deposit, then continue the lie by telling the customer that the mother only had 2 pups. I mean we go through registered dog breeders in the hopes that we know what we are in for, so that we can have peace of mind that we are hopefully getting a healthy pup. So when a breeder miss leads a person like this it makes you wonder..... what else have they lied about. I have everything in writing and evidence that there where more pups to the litter. I also dont really expect anything to be done about this but it is something I strongly feel should at least be reported as its coming across as a dodgy business.

General Thoughts on who to report this to? 

[karen15]

Collie, I don't think you've given enough information. I know with my pup, there were four pups but only two were for sale to me (either one of the males). That would have been because they were a well bred litter with multiple ch, grand ch and supreme chs in their lineage and the breeder must have thought the females were breeding quality.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Quote

Surely its not okay for breeders to lie to a customer by telling them they have 2nd pick of the litter in order to get said customer to put down a deposit, then continue the lie by telling the customer that the mother only had 2 pups

In SA - the ANKC breeders have to list their litters with the SACA journal.  So there is a written record of how many puppies are in the litter.

 

I think it is possibly fraud to make misleading statements about how many puppies in the litter and what choice the would be buyer has.  But if you went to civil court - to claim - they like to award what the fraud has cost you - so how has this made you "out of pocket".  Punitive damages are mostly a USA thing.  So are damages for "emotional distress".

 

If they are ANKC registered - there is a code of ethics.  I couldn't find anything specific about misrepresenting how many puppies are in a litter.  There is something more general about not bringing the ANKC into disrepute - which this kind of behaviour - could be argued makes all ANKC breeders look bad.

But was it an ANKC registered breeder or just a breeder registered with their local council (also known as a "registered breeder").

 

Quote

Many people wouldn't give a shit and would breed from her regardless. 

This would be in direct breach of quite a few ANKC code of ethics and some states (NSW?) companion animal breeding laws.  Hopefully very few ANKC breeders do that and they all get reported.

I think Uni NSW is collecting data on hereditary diseases by breed and vets can report their findings to that - including a dog's genetic ancestry (pedigree).  This might be worth doing.  Summaries by breed and by disease used to be available online but they don't seem to be at the moment (LIDA database).
 

[Dogsfevr]

Collie Thoughts two sides to every story ,the breeder may have said only xxx number available & that second pick is what is available.

Have learnt over the years that some potential pet owners can be great story tellers too especially those that expect to get what they want .

We deal with that small group often & plenty will tell the next person a different story  to make out they have been hard done by .

 

Yes some breeders can also be there worse enemy with explaining things too.

 

Although im not sure what the second pick aspect has to do with putting a deposit down ,the pup is either something that you want or it isn't & one would presume what you where after pup wise was well discussed prior to selecting the breeder .If you don't like what has gone on then go find another breeder which i gather has been done

 

[Collie92]

My apologies for the lack of info 

Mrs rusty bucket thankyou for all of that information, the breeders website states that they are registed with 'dogs nsw'. 

Karen15 thankyou also. I completely understand that breeders would want too keep some of thier line, If the breeder had stated that, then id understand. basically the breeder stated before the litter was born that they was taking deposits from people interested, I did a bit of researching to try to make sure they where legit. I also asked how many other people had put deposits down so that I new where I stood (they basically had a first in best dressed deal) they stated that only one other person put a deposit down, they said they had 3 breeders interested but they didnt put deposits down. So I told them if i was second pick then I'd like to put down a deposit (so i did). 2 days after the litter was born I get this 

' ....has had her pups, only 2 girls unfortunately, one blue, one lilac' (I took out the dogs name). 

I thought it was a little odd but I understand very rare it can happen I suppose. So being second pick I got the choice on whether or not to take the remaining girl. So in a few days I get to go pick up my baby girl (hopefully she actually exists). And I have to be honest after recently seeing the entire litter posted on thier fb page (I say entire because there are actually 4 boys and 2 girl) out of that entire litter even if I had first pick of the lot id still choose my girl, theres just something about her. They had 2 of the males listed on thier as available too. So this isnt a rant on being unhappy about a 'product purchase' for lack of better word. Im mearly worried and upset that these breeders can play people like that. Intentionally with holding information is still lying in my eyes, im a very honest person and it upsets me that others are not the same. I understand that most of you on here are most likely breeders and its understanding that bredders will want to stick up for fellow breeders. And i know that not all breeders are unprofessional. But this type of thing does give breeders a bad name unfortunatly. Honesty! Thats all i wanted. And I'm a bit worried for other people, I mean do they do this often? I see it like a hazard in the work place, people see it but no one reports it, then all of a sudden an accident happens that could have been avoided. 

and for the record show dog, Ive worked in hospitality, believe me, I know better then most how absolutly, sorry for the language but, shitty some people can be, you wont believe some of the things people come up with when they are loosing on a gaming floor. So understand alot of people are full of it. Unfortunatly your just going to have to take my word on my honesty. Im the type of person that usually keeps my opinions to myself. So Im amazing that Im even posting here, asking for peoples thoughts. 

regardless though, I understand everyones comments and I thankyou for your time 

 

[karen15]

collie, it could be that the boys were to go to the breeders but some had second thoughts etc so they became available later.

 

I buy a dog once every 15 years, so do appreciate how hard it is to find a good breeder when you don't have the connections. I tend to be a planner and found the breeder of my pup four years before I was ready - my dog had been diagnosed with aggressive cancer and I was lucky to get three extra years with him after the first removal. He lived 2 months after the second removal. I contacted the breeder the week he died to let her know I'd be looking for a pup in about 9 months time. Turned out it fitted in perfectly with two litters she bred.

 

my understanding from DOL is that breeders try to match the pup with the new owner. I gave my breeder a number of traits and personality characteristics that I like in a dog and my pup (nearly 2yo! time flies) has been exactly what I wanted.

[Dogsfevr]

So Collie did you put your name down for a boy or girl or where you open minded

Edited April 10, 2017 by showdog

[Rebanne]

all I can say is that I'm not that type of breeder and I have some concerns with this 1st come 1st served business. I don't know, did you tell them you only wanted a girl? That might be why they said only 2 girls unfortunately. What breed has lilac as a colour anyway? Make sure the parents have had all relevant health tests and make sure you see the papers for them. Make sure the names match up on your pups litter rego to the names on the health certificates. Good luck.