Sit Happens!

[Guest Tess32]

Well, Ebony can't sit.

In fact, she never sits - ever!

I have tried luring her into it, against walls, against me, food over head...nothing!

Anyone have any ideas on how to get a dog to sit that never sits!

Nat

[ninaandted]

if she can drop, maybe have her in a down there and lure her up while gently keeping her bottom down?

Ted took a bit of a while with sit too, but he hadn't had any training at all before he came to us. I actually thought there might be something wrong with his hips at the time because I hadn't even seen him sit of his own volition - he liked lounging about much better!

none of the stuff you mentioned worked for him either. I even had Nina doing "demonstrations" for him. he just used to look at me with this expression on his face as if to say "well, when am I getting some food?"

as he wasn't trained to do anything, except look gorgeous ;) , I resorted to pushing his bottom on the ground once to try and show him what was required and gave him a treat as soon as his bottom hit the ground.

I didn't really have to do it again after that and don't like to do it as a rule, but he didn't know how to do anything at that stage!! he responded to the "lures" much better after that for other training and for moving into a sit. he now sits all the time. it's still not as prompt as Nina but he will do it.

[PAX]

Tess32,

I had an adult dog that was the same. She had been a show dog and encouraged not to sit. Drop was no problems but sit was almost impossible. I had to practically lift her by the collar up and backwards (which i hated) and just give heaps of praise. When i did this with all the early sits her body would go so stiff and rigid and she looked so unatural and uncomfortable, the poor girl. I also started getting the sit before meals etc It didnt take to long and she would do it for food then i started to clicker train it. I couldn't clicker train it at first because she was totally clueless and she had been reprimanded for sitting in her show career. For the first month i thought she would never get it but eventually she did and started even sitting when relaxed at home. I always put in other behaviours that she could be sucsessful at to take the pressure off her.

I had also never seen a dog that sitting was such a big deal.

[chezzyr]

Rosie wasnt obed trained at all as far as I can tell but she learnt sit pretty quick. Then I worked on getting her to drop and she became really good at sit/drop but now all she does is drop and wont stay in a sit. Maybe I praised her TOO much when she was learning drop. I dont know how to undo this but we are going to get her/us signed up for obed pretty soon! I think I need expert help!

With Ebony are you trying the sitting inside on carpet etc? Maybe she doesnt like sitting and getting a cold butt! ;)

[Lablover]

Never ever sits???

Are you confident that your dog has not a physical problem?

[KitKat]

As Packsapunch said about show dogs...many are encouraged not to sit and will just stand...and stand and stand...you can put them into a sit and they might for a few moments...and then they will stand again.

Best bet is to go right back to stage one with teaching the sit and just go from there, it will take longer as you'll have to increase the time that you have them sitting etc. It won't happen over night but it will happen

[holly]

I was thinking as Lablover, if your dog has never sat, is there a problem stopping your dog?

[Tabata]

Nat, have you tried free shaping a sit? (you didn't mention it) There's a cute little demo page here:

http://www.magicpaws.com/shape.htm

[Guest Tess32]

Holly & Lablover - we just got her on Sunday so I'm sure she (well, hope so!) has sat in her life time, but not so far except when she gets in the car, so she *can*.

I was doing it inside/outside and she gets to an almost sit and then won't.

I think I'll go start from the very start, charge the clicker and try and shape it - thanks for the link Tabata.

Nat

[chezzyr]

Lets know how you get on with the clicker method with Ebony! Because if it works with her I will seriously look into learning the method to use with my girl.

[Guest Tess32]

An update on the sitting saga.

I tried all the usual ways, as I said - she will NOT sit if you lure the food over her head, that's for sure. She also will not take kindly to having her bum guided down.

So I've found a way that works for her. I'm not following training "rules" that well though as I'm adding the cue before I actually get the behaviour going regularly.

I kneel down, say "sit" and wait. Ebony stares for about 10 seconds, and then goes to drop (and give up). Just before she drops, she of course, sits - so I click and shove food in her mouth and as she plants her bottom on the ground I say "sit" again.

She is now sometimes remaining in a sit. I think this method will eventually work. She is a hard dog to train when you are used to a clicker savvy, fast thinker who tries new things.

However, on the plus side, she is FINE with the clicker now and has no problem with the noise. She pricks her ears at the click now and looks for food, so I'm hoping it'll sink in eventually.

Nat

[dogdayz]

Nat

I had a similar issue with Skye, although she would sit o command she would almost instantly drop, even when doing a recall she would sit in front but you would then see her relax back from the upright sit, ready to drop if you moved from in front of her. We just lured her a little forward and up to keep her upright in the sit, and hold her there.

She has stopped dropping in sit, and now if she relaxes back a small hand signal makes her sit straight up, so it seems to have helped.

[mita]

I kneel down, say "sit" and wait. Ebony stares for about 10 seconds, and then goes to drop (and give up). Just before she drops, she of course, sits - so I click and shove food in her mouth and as she plants her bottom on the ground I say "sit" again.

A good training rule is...Whatever Works. Brilliant to catch her like that on her way down. I must remember that tip.

I also find the second part of the learning to sit saga, the best motivator. And that's to make the dog earn everything she likes best in life....but first having her bottom on the ground.

When the penny drops that bottom on ground is the gate way to goodies, the dog will sit like a flash.

[Guest Tess32]

Still going very slowly with this - so sign of recognition yet but I am not pushing it and only doing a few reps a day.

If anyone has any hints, I'll be happy ;)

Nat

[fido666]

Hi Nat,

II kneel down, say "sit" and wait. Ebony stares for about 10 seconds, and then goes to drop (and give up). Just before she drops, she of course, sits - so I click and shove food in her mouth and as she plants her bottom on the ground I say "sit" again.

I'm see you do all the usual stuff to lure her into a sit from your earlier posts. To stop her from dropping try placing your foot sideways in front of her paws just as she sits, that way she can't slide them forward to go into a drop JMHO :D You have to be gentle about it so you don't startle her into jumping backwards. Being a Sensitive New Age Collie (SNAC) owner I'm sure you know about the gentle bit though ;)

Cheers,

Corine

Edited for bad spelling

Edited May 28, 2005 by fido666

[Guest Tess32]

Had a break through tonight on this one

Erny - you asked what she does when I am trying to train the sit.

She does or DID nothing. She would stare at me blankly if I waited, and if I tried to gently touch her behind to make her aware of the pressure, she'd shut down.

Anyway I have only done one or two reps a day, waiting until she went to drop, and then clicking and treating (with the treat high enought to keep her in a sit). I was also rewarding her whenever she was in a sit on her own - which is very rarely.

TONIGHT - she started going into a drop straight away, not staring at me at all, so I was able to C/T quite a few times in a row. Then, for the last few reps, she DID NOT DROP! She is now staying in a sit!

Now I did cheat and add the cue from the beginning, but I don't think she's sitting on the verbal cue. Lots of work to do really, but a definite break through.

Nat

[Erny]

Nat - Glad you have had a break through! It's tough when your dog just doesn't do it "by the book", isn't it? You talk about cheating (ie said the cue word first) - IF that's what helped, then I don't consider it cheating (maybe not ideal for later on, as the word can become meaningless if you cue her and she ignores it, but hey .... Sometimes we gotta do what we gotta do and then fix up sloppy areas later on.

I really don't have a picture of what your girl is like so it's sometimes difficult to suggest, but a few questions/matters for thought, are mentioned below.

Is she a collie as your picture suggests? If not, what breed? Some breeds are not as comfortable with the sit (eg. greyhounds) - doesn't mean they CAN'T do it, just that it's not comfortable so they'd prefer a drop.

I'm not sure what her demeanour is like, either - so how far you could "push". Do you think she'd cope if you worked on the sit with her backed into a corner and where you crowd her in (ie walk in close towards her) at the same time as luring her with food? You could also/alternatively do this with her in the drop, and walk in towards her (one foot sliding in between her front paws and under her chest a little) - this might encourage her to sit up. Of course, if she is bothered by you walking in, this would be counter-productive, so it's an idea, rather than a suggestion - you know your dog better than anyone.

Of course, if the method your on is getting you somewhere, stick with it for the time being.

Other things to think about - what food treat are you using? Is it something REALLY special? Is it enough of a motivator for her? Is she hungry for it? Does she prefer a favourite toy? You say she "shuts down" if you touch her on the rear end to encourage the sit ... is it you leaning over her to do this that shuts her down, or is it the actual touch on her rump that does it? If it's the former, could you use a stick (eg. length of dowell) to touch her on the rump? I'm not sure of her history, but she sounds like a rescue dog, so make sure she's comfortable around the stick first, if you opt for this as a training aid. Or, instead of touching her rump, have you tried using the lead and flat collar with some pressure to guide her upwards, at the same time luring with food (but if you're not using your hand on her rump, she might just walk backwards .... having a wall/barrier behind her might help)

As raised by other dolers in this thread, I'd also query as to whether there is a physical issue involved .... have you had her checked for this? My girl had a back issue some number of months ago, and even though she knows sit VERY well, and is a really compliant dog, she was VERY put off by doing the sit (that's why I had her back investigated).

That your girl looks "blank" (as you've mentioned) sounds to me like it could be avoidance, and avoidance more often than not comes from confusion (assuming it's not a physical limitation). So maybe, if you're getting somewhere with your method, it'll begin to click into place for her and you'll excell from there .... I hope so! Good luck and let us know how you go.

Edited June 10, 2005 by Erny

[chezzyr]

wow, I am surprised there is so much involved in teaching sit. Not to mention the length of the posts

Heck I am probably old school but I simply taught my dog to sit by saying a firm clear "sit" and lightly pushing on her rump. I stood at her right side and each time I said sit I would just push on her rump (gentle/firmish so there was enough pressure). She eventually cottoned on and was responding well within a couple of days. Of course I praised and treated her. Not the click click shove food way. My dog isnt particularly treat orientated and responds to praise

She (nor I) have had any formal obedience training so it will probably be a shock to our system when we begin in a couple of weeks. Hope its not TOO text book/military style for us

Edited: Just reread some of the posts and see that Ebony does NOT take to having her bum guided down *shrugs*.

Rosie went through a stage of wanting to drop when I gave the sit command but she was just a bit confused with the new command. I now raise my hand above my head so that she is kind of looking up when I say sit (I do this only if she doesnt respond instantly). Much easier for her to sit than drop when head is looking up. I figure if it works why not. As for drop well I point my hand to the ground if I dont get an instant drop and that seems to work.

Edited June 11, 2005 by chezzyr

[Staff'n'Toller]

She (nor I) have had any formal obedience training so it will probably be a shock to our system when we begin in a couple of weeks. Hope its not TOO text book/military style for us

Depends on what training school you have chosen to go to.

[Guest Tess32]

Erny,

Yep she's a collie - 4 years old soon. We've only had her a month.

She's sensitive, very submissive, extremely receptive to tone of voice and that's usually all that is needed. Very well behaved in general.

However, despite her "life skills", she's never been taught any command, so "sit" is first.

I'm not sure what her demeanour is like, either - so how far you could "push". Do you think she'd cope if you worked on the sit with her backed into a corner and where you crowd her in (ie walk in close towards her) at the same time as luring her with food?

I could not push her very far - she will shut down if she feels backed in. I've already tried backing her against the wall but I can see her shutting down. I don't think she'll do well with any physical handling.

Thankfully she's extremely food motivated so I'm hoping that will help. She's motivated by ANY food so don't think that is the issue. She doesn't like toys though.

I have a feeling she's going to find it hard to generalise too, so I think "sit" is going to be become a life long project

It is any touch of the rump that shuts her down - even if someone else just touches her lightly she wants to get away.

I think she'll need a hands off approach, but I'm thinking it's going to be a case of repeat, repeat, repeat. She's not getting the connection between the cue and the action yet, but rewarding her for sitting is definitely getting her to stay in a sit more frequently.

Pretty sure there is no physical problem though - she has no problem sitting when she does sit. I believe "sit" is not a natural position for a dog so I don't find it that hard to believe that she rarely sits on her own considering she's never been reinforced for it.

Chezz - think Rosie just has a younger mind - Eb's never been taught anything and she's quite set in her ways so I think she'll have a harder time learning to learn.

Nat