Variable reinforcement schedule

[KobiD]

I can't say I've changed much in the way we've been training or reacting and the behaviours have seemed to pass. No more crying at dinner time. She's reverted back to laying down at the door and sleeping. She gets a nice reward once we've finished and sometimes a few more as she lays down again too. 

 

Her loose leash walking has been coming along, doing better, with less food reward and more life rewards. She still tests and pulls at times but not nearly as much. She's very nose focussed and loves to sniff and try to scavenge. More walking means more exposure to people and animals which has in turn given us more opportunity to work with her impulse control around them and I feel she's made some really good improvements. Also had a few play dates with the rellies dog which she loves.

 

One thing I have noticed (back on topic of reward schedule) is that she tends to hit the reward and then take off again. Ie I'll make and reward with her in place while walking on my left heel but as soon as she takes the reward she see's fit as an opportunity to break the behaviour and try and take more range to explore again. I specifically only reward in position but she doesn't seem to put two and two together, or she finds the environment more exciting. In normal training I tend to either place the food somewhere and then release her to eat, or I reward and then release her.. so trying not to encourage food = release.

 

Increasing distraction (walking or travelling to a new area) always poses a challenge too, but with a bit of patience she starts to realise what gets her some freedom. She's a funny dog. Very independent and not very praise/pat/game driven. She loves the environment, smells, whatever she can find, other people and other animals. Been a process of showing her that she needs to focus on me, so that I'll let her focus everywhere else.

 

Have done the same with walking in terms of leash pressure, where she feels it tight and we don't move until it slacks off. And when she gets very sniffy/explorer mode I wait till she looks at me before we take a step. As above though she interprets one step as the cue that she's free to go again! Patience patience young grasshopper. 

 

She's definitely matured a bit over the last couple months which has helped too. 

[Tassie]

On ‎23‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 7:28 PM, KobiD said:

Her loose leash walking has been coming along, doing better, with less food reward and more life rewards. She still tests and pulls at times but not nearly as much. She's very nose focussed and loves to sniff and try to scavenge. More walking means more exposure to people and animals which has in turn given us more opportunity to work with her impulse control around them and I feel she's made some really good improvements. Also had a few play dates with the rellies dog which she loves.

I hear you!    My 19 week old BC is a very social girl, and thinks the whole world needs to meet her .. yep .. working on impulse control, with a very high rate of reinforcement, combined with lots of praise for making a good decision.   As well as being a baby, she's a busy little/not so little girl - things to do, places to be all at warp speed ... but we're making progress.    And just in case you think that this teaching will last for life .. my 8.5 year old agility/high level obedience/rally O  boy is tending to forget that he actually does know how to do loose leash walking, so he's having reminder training as well.

 

As far as the darting off again goes, it's worth delivering not just one treat, but a series in pretty quick succession, then verbal release,   rinse and repeat.   (treats only need to be small .. if they're soft, you can make one into 4).   So each treat gets delivered just before she's about to leave .. you'll find it won't take too long before she's at least hesitating, so you can lengthen out the gaps between the treats .. judgement call.   IMO, it's pretty important to mark the behaviour you're rewarding .. my marker is excited "Yes"  and my release is "OK"  -  so the marker is the bridge to reinforcement, whether that's a treat, or a permission to go sniff/explore.

 

[KobiD]

5 hours ago, Tassie said:

I hear you!    My 19 week old BC is a very social girl, and thinks the whole world needs to meet her .. yep .. working on impulse control, with a very high rate of reinforcement, combined with lots of praise for making a good decision.   As well as being a baby, she's a busy little/not so little girl - things to do, places to be all at warp speed ... but we're making progress.    And just in case you think that this teaching will last for life .. my 8.5 year old agility/high level obedience/rally O  boy is tending to forget that he actually does know how to do loose leash walking, so he's having reminder training as well.

 

As far as the darting off again goes, it's worth delivering not just one treat, but a series in pretty quick succession, then verbal release,   rinse and repeat.   (treats only need to be small .. if they're soft, you can make one into 4).   So each treat gets delivered just before she's about to leave .. you'll find it won't take too long before she's at least hesitating, so you can lengthen out the gaps between the treats .. judgement call.   IMO, it's pretty important to mark the behaviour you're rewarding .. my marker is excited "Yes"  and my release is "OK"  -  so the marker is the bridge to reinforcement, whether that's a treat, or a permission to go sniff/explore.

 

Cheers Tassie

 

Exactly what I have been trying too!! A random number of treats for holding. It only really works a little bit though. She's bloody eager to get back to the environment. I think it's a little of her genetics/temperament to be honest.. given where we live and the number of people who are into pigging I'd say strong chances she is of some hunting heritage. Her shape, her independence, and her drives all suggest the same thing.

 

I'd rather work with it than against, and as such have also started doing a bit of nose work. Putting her in a sit stay and then moving around the yard placing a couple of high value treats around before letting her have a sniff of my hand and releasing her to find them.

 

Wouldn't mind getting her to sit or bark when she finds one before releasing to eat, but that would take some significant time and impulse control on her part! She absolutely loves following her nose!

[Tassie]

Love the nosework idea!   Excellent.

 

I was thinking of you this morning when I was doing the urban solo walk with my pup in a busy area.   She was a bit off the show for the first few minutes .. needed a lot of help in making good choices, but settled much more quickly than last week, and was able to manage crossing a busy traffic light controlled intersection, crossing a couple of other busy streets, meeting some people coming out of their house, and walking nicely as I walked along the footpath with them, coping with a bus pulling up alongside us on a very narrow footpath, and seeing people get off and being patient and polite while I talked with a man who'd stopped to have a pat, adf then we were chatting about BCs, as you do.    The whole thing took so much less effort and reminder than in previous weeks.  Happy trainer here.

[corvus]

Dogs that don't inherently want to stay within coo-ee can be trained to. My podengo is enormously excited by exploring and novelty. As in, she won't get in the car at the end of an hour long walk because she's not done yet. She is perpetually trying to convince us to go a little farther with her, even when we've just run 13km on bush trails and you'd think she might be ready to go home. It has taken a fair bit of work to get her interested in hanging around and seeing what we are doing. Lots of reinforcing check-ins, prompting them if need be. More importantly, effort needs to be made to show her it is really worthwhile sticking around until dismissed. That means spending a good 30s+ actively engaging her and giving her lots of opportunities for easy reinforcement before releasing her. The release is important as well. They get used to waiting for it if you try to make sure you always release them before they release themselves.

[KobiD]

19 hours ago, corvus said:

Dogs that don't inherently want to stay within coo-ee can be trained to. My podengo is enormously excited by exploring and novelty. As in, she won't get in the car at the end of an hour long walk because she's not done yet. She is perpetually trying to convince us to go a little farther with her, even when we've just run 13km on bush trails and you'd think she might be ready to go home. It has taken a fair bit of work to get her interested in hanging around and seeing what we are doing. Lots of reinforcing check-ins, prompting them if need be. More importantly, effort needs to be made to show her it is really worthwhile sticking around until dismissed. That means spending a good 30s+ actively engaging her and giving her lots of opportunities for easy reinforcement before releasing her. The release is important as well. They get used to waiting for it if you try to make sure you always release them before they release themselves.

The bounce off I speak of was more in relation to loose leash walking. It's a funny one, because if I drop the leash or unclip her she's quite happy to meander around doing her own thing but always in proximity and always paying attention to where I am. Ie if I walk off she'll want to follow. If I call she listens. If I cue her to sit stay she does it. Same around the yard off leash.

 

On leash (probably more so that we are exploring new environment covered with bulk dog scent among other things) she finds the leash restrictive. She wants to be able to stop, sniff, go ahead, sniff, etc but at times it clashes with the concept of walking together. I'll mark and reward when she's in a good position, and I'll ask for certain positions and reward as well, but while we are moving forward she has her own ideas of what's next. Stop walking and she'll focus more intently. Move out into the middle of the road where there are less distractions and she'll behave better, go back to the footpath and she'll be focussed on the smells. Go into some bushland and she's overwhelmed with what she can find.

[KobiD]

Little trouble maker

[Tassie]

Trouble maker she may be (at times) but she's a cutie pie.   And reading your post .. I think you've hit on something important by using the word overwhelmed .. that is likely what's happening .. so probably increase the rate of reinforcement for any attention to (or back to) you, when you see she's in that sort of area.

[KobiD]

Ohh I do Tassie! I think what I probably should do is increase the value of the reward. Work with something a bit tastier than plain old dog biscuits.

[Tassie]

Yep - definitely upgrade the value of the treat.    I love to use soft treats which I can cut into cubes, and then can break up so that with one small (say 1cm) treat, I can actually deliver 4 machine gun rewards.   1 cm or 0.25cm .. goes down just as fast, but pup thinks .. wow .. I got 4 treats for that.    Verbal excitement from me goes with it.

 

As a general rule of thumb ... the higher the distraction/level of difficulty, the higher the value of the reinforcement needed, and the higher rate of reinforcement.    And if a normally foody pup can't take treats, that's a sign that pup is over the top, and we need to remove them from the situation to where they can respond.   (That goes for fear, excitement, and anything else that is frying the dog's brain .

[KobiD]

Roger!!

 

I've only had a few moments where she's been over the food threshold and it's usually been at developmental milestones and got the spooks over something. Ie the other night walking in the dark and there was a flickering street light. Something spooked her a bit and had to move past it before she'd focus on the food again. Only took a few seconds to get her settled though. Other than that I haven't seen her turn her nose up at anything, and I've only really witnessed her tuck her tail a handful of times aswell, so fortunate in that respect.

 

She's coming along quite nicely I think. We can get past other dogs on the street, although she'll usually turn back after we've passed and watch as if to say can I go play! She's listens to leave it when seeing distractions (cats/birds), and she'll happily sit outside a fence with a dog barking at her on the other side and listen to what is being asked. Dog to dog greetings are still very high energy (albeit she still listens for treats, will sit/lay down on cue right infront of another dog), but doesn't have the duration to maintain it or the ability to calm herself into a nice gentle greeting. 

 

A couple times when approached by other dogs who are off leash she tends to be calmer/submissive/cautious in how they greet. 

[KobiD]

What are your thoughts on releasing the dog to eat, and then asking for a leave it, before releasing again? Cruel, or a good way to solidify the behaviour?

 

Clever dog is more motivated by a quantity of food vs a small or even several small rewards. A healthy bowl of dinner changes her demeanour much more than a handful of sausage.

[Dogsfevr]

40 minutes ago, KobiD said:

What are your thoughts on releasing the dog to eat, and then asking for a leave it, before releasing again? Cruel, or a good way to solidify the behaviour?

 

Clever dog is more motivated by a quantity of food vs a small or even several small rewards. A healthy bowl of dinner changes her demeanour much more than a handful of sausage.

Each to there own there but in our household food time is the one time I don't interrupt .

I can pick any bowl up mid feed if it was required but our dogs get to enjoy this one moment .

 

We have some clients who train there dogs for it and expect us to go through a crazy routine when boarded ,we have dogs that become in so confused at food time if a routine is not followed it can become hard in times of emergencies or other people filling the role hence from this experience I believe feed time should be solely based on here's the bowl,safe area and eat 

 

[persephone]

I don't understand why you would do it ... dinnertime is for eating .

[KobiD]

TOT

 

It's a sticky on here. I agree with you all that once I release the dog into the meal I tend to let her enjoy her 5 seconds of inhaling alone, and let the rest of the family to also know to leave her alone.

 

There is no set routine here other than she doesn't eat until I release her to eat. Sometimes I'll use that time to proof behaviours. Sometimes I'll just let her make her own choices. Sometimes I'll make her sit and wait with it right infront. Sometimes I'll ask for a sequence of known behaviours (in any random order). And of course there are times that the rest of the family does the same thing.

 

I could just let her eat, but I see it as a great exercise of training in drive, at peak motivation where she can see the reward and is highly excited about working to achieve it. I find it valuable and also in the sense that it keeps her knowing who controls what resources.

 

I'm not talking about interrupting her half way through her dinner with a leave it, but during the lead up, if I release her and then change my mind, it's good to know she'll turn and listen. A handful of extra treats get delivered and then back to enjoy her dinner. Still feels a bit nasty sending mixed signals, but it isn't something I would do daily. Just wondering if anyone else see's the value in it?

 

I do frequently interrupt her in play and with her kong/bones and ask for a drop it, leave it. I'll have a look, give it back and walk off to leave her to it. Again, it's not a constant thing, but I feel she should be conditioned to share it as it reinforces that I'm not there to take from her, simply to check in and make sure all is well before she goes back to it.

[persephone]

6 hours ago, KobiD said:

What are your thoughts on releasing the dog to eat, and then asking for a leave it, before releasing again? Cruel, or a good way to solidify the behaviour?

 

3 hours ago, KobiD said:

TOT

 

It's a sticky on here. I agree with you all that once I release the dog into the meal I tend to let her enjoy her 5 seconds of inhaling alone, and let the rest of the family to also know to leave her alone.

You have confused me . 
TOT ( Triangle of Temptation) is training in drive . it is teaching the dog to WAIT until you give a release ...then it is left to eat in peace, or go outside, or play with a toy ... or whatever the end result/treasure is .

AFAIK  ,TOT is NOT about having a dog work,access a reward only to stop  and start again .....

[KobiD]

It is training in drive yes, but not necessarily about just waiting. It's about using the temptation to first learn impulse control (waiting) and then to follow cue with the end reward being the motivator.

 

As above, I'm not saying that I let the puppy access the reward and then pull her off to start the whole process again.

 

It's as simple as I might have her sit, wait, place the bowl infront, ask for a stay. Walk 20m away, ask for a recall, sit, paw, lay down, stay, walk 10M away. Release, but half way call for an interrupter (wait, leave it, come, etc) thus teaching that even when she's in full flight towards something she really wants, that it's still in her best interest to listen. When she does she gets a bit of extra goodness along with her meal.

 

Makes sense to me. The way I understood TOT is that it's not static.. that it allows you to continue building and training skills while using the same principal you started with to get the patience and 'game' started.

[KobiD]

From the TOT sticky, Quoting Steve

 

K9: the back tie teaches dogs that being tied out is ok, like when you go for coffee etc, teaches the dog not to whine etc...

Its essential that the words yes & "ok" be used. I dont use commands like "eat" or "go get em" etc.

I use a free command, my word is "ok".

This extends into other styles of training as does the marker yes.

It isnt about sitting & waiting for food, its about getting attention & teaching the dog its a positive thing, then adding obedience commands, many as you like...

Then taking this program training anywhere you are...

The position of the food, the way its presented also have a strong impact... You must create food drive, or you lose the effect...

So yes I would say start from scratch, like I said its far from simple as it looks on the outside.

 

So asking for a recall or interrupter sounds totally feasible, given that the dog hasn't already commenced eating. I figure once she's eating that's her time and I leave her to it.

[KobiD]

Still continuing with the training, putting a lot of work into building variable rewards and trying to incorporate more life rewards in to daily activities rather than just food.

 

I think back when I started this thread it may have been a bit too early in her development to try and vary the rate and type of reward, and I was concerned about her being only food driven. As she's become more familiar with the environment and all the exciting things around it, learnt some impulse control, and also what my expectations of her are, I've now been able to mix things up a bit.

 

I'm big on the "good girl, let's go get a treat!" when she's listened and I have nothing. We race back to the house and grab her something delicious. 

 

During our walks I've been starting to use a bit more leash pressure to indicate what I want. If she gets ahead I firm it a bit. If she stops and looks back we both continue on. If she tries to pull on I simply wait her out and then walk the other way when she looks. Hopefully this will translate into less verbal cues from me (leave it, good girl, wait, let's go, etc etc etc). Big effort has gone into walking in general as it engages her mind a lot and seems to be a good way to keep her busy. We incorporate a lot of proofing of other behaviours in various places, under various levels of distraction while out an about too so it just makes sense.

 

Attached a few pics that I also posted over in the photos section, but seems appropriate to keep em here too!

 

 

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

i'm completely biased in favor of Susan Garrett's training - mods might delete this cos it's a shameless plug

 

But she's doing something called an "its yer choice" summit - with so far about five or six videos going through how to train its yer choice.

If you search "free dog training workshop" on facebook and find a big purple banner - that's it.  And there's links in there to her webpage for it which has links to all the videos in order (and that will cost you an email address) and some reading material too.    Eventually (in about a week or so) she will open up recallers to the mailing list she builds for this.  That's for anyone who wants to do recaller$.