Variable reinforcement schedule

[KobiD]

I've been following some of the free dog training workshop, and taken some knowledge from it to implement into my own training routines. 

 

Still having the same issues on this front regarding variable reinforcement. Still mixing it up with treats of different value, toys and play, and have also been building touch (scratch more than petting) into the reward system, however food is her true motivation. Given that she's a dog though, she's well aware of if I am carrying food and 9 times out of 10 I am. I have also been building 'let's get a treat' where I run back inside and get her something nice while she waits outside... I probably need to work on this more as there are still times she'll decide that I have nothing and she can smell or access something she wants and she takes the easy route. 

[Tassie]

Slightly OT .. but I was just reading the August issue of Clean Run magazine (agility magazine from the US, and there's an interesting article in which the author argues that VR strengthening behaviours to resist extinction is arguably an experimental construct, arrived at in controlled lab experiments, and therefore maybe not best suited to real life with all its uncontrolled variable and distractions.  If I read it correctly, the argument was in favour of continuous reinforcement (but with an emphasis on building and strengthening secondary rinforcers .. e.g. that you can take into a competition ring .. like personal play, verbal excitement etc. etc. So it's not just the treat for example that's the reward .. but the whole performance the Nadler puts on between the behaviour and the treat .. that excitement in itself become a reinforcer.   

 

@The Spotted Devil - - don't know if you read the article or if I've interpreted it correctly.

[The Spotted Devil]

@Tassie great point!

 

I haven’t read the article but yes I would agree. What we should be focussing on is differential reinforcement - for example, 50% or better in terms of criteria - and as Bob Bailey reminds us “the click doesn’t end the behaviour” so anything in that behaviour chain is getting reinforced. Looking at responses in a Skinner box gives us laws which we can use to inform us but life ain’t a Skinner box. 

[KobiD]

I think study shows that the weight of the reward also influences the reinforcement. Ie higher value for better performance vs low value for mediocre, but as above it becomes very hard to implement in every day life.

 

I think I agree with the above too, re treats and more.. and that is the direction I have been working vs true variable reinforcement. I guess the difficulty as a handler is that she is very focussed in the particular drive that she is in, therefore responds better to reinforcement in that drive. For example, if she's working for food and you try to pat her she'll often pull away like a teenager walking with mom or dad in public. Same for play, she doesn't really enjoy a good cuddle... or if she's working for food and you try to play instead she just ignores the toy. Some of it is her, some is me too. I'm not very excitable by nature. Very relaxed and happy for the dog to follow the same laid back lifestyle vs being snappy all the time.

 

I have been trying to couple and build with working for games and then rewarding higher value with treats on occasion, or a good scratch if she appears to enjoy it in that instance. I also couple the treat with movement and touch to try and make them all part of the same rewarding process.

[The Spotted Devil]

That’s where transfer of value comes in. So my Spaniels will work for dry food with as much drive as they will to retrieve game. And that’s saying something!!! That’s why I love SG stuff - that’s central to her courses. 

[Tassie]

1 hour ago, The Spotted Devil said:

That’s where transfer of value comes in. So my Spaniels will work for dry food with as much drive as they will to retrieve game. And that’s saying something!!! That’s why I love SG stuff - that’s central to her courses. 

Yes!   My dear old Kirra  was very much a foody girl ... didn't learn to tug (or about crates much) till she was several years old.    However I was able to transfer value to the tug and she became a fearsome tugger, even if she knew there were treats around.   Mind you .. I had to use a long tug with her, as she was slow to learn to be careful with her teeth!   Small price to pay.

[KobiD]

We can get a good game of tug going. She loves LOVES LOVES her flirt pole setup. Happy to play with palm coves, but she has to be in an excited state to want to play. I have been transferring the value, but getting her into the drive where she see's that as a reward is what can be a challenge. Either not exciting compared to what else she's interested in, or other times she's just not interested (can take/leave a game). Food is a very very rare situation where she'll decline it.  If she knows you have food on you she'll be offering learnt behaviours like there's no tomorrow (mostly going up to person seen as source of food and laying beside them). 

 

It could also be a case that the tug toy has lost appeal because I have left it with her all the time. She tends to play with it on her own when she gets bored vs being something special I bring out as a bonding tool. The flirt pole stays locked away and only comes out on my terms. 

[Tassie]

It can be a step by step process to transfer the value ... especially if it hasn't been part of the pup's routine from a real youngster.      It's not a bad thing IMO to have food as a high value reinforcer for some behaviours (where part of the behaviour is closeness to the handler, and toys for other behaviour, where it's fine to deliver a reward more remotely, but it is best of all to make sure that the pup not only loves the toy, but loves it as part of an interactive game to play with the handler.   That can be increased by crazy excited behaviour on the handler's part while playing (easier for female humans, I think), and by having two similar tug toys, and playing a game where the pup learns to switch readily from toy to toy as indicated by the handler.

 

[KobiD]

Great idea Tassie. We tend to do this in the afternoons when the day begins to cool off and she gets a bit more active. Ropeys, Palm fronds, tennis balls, and the whole family running around the yard. It's just not of much interest to her during the day when it's hot and she's not motivated.

 

Take her to the park and get her interested in everything and she works much harder. Runs fast, quick recall, quick spins, and lots of hand targeting all before the treats are delivered usually. It becomes about the whole process rather than just the food.

[KobiD]

This dog has variable speeds. During the heat of the day she gets her laze on in a big way and is hardly motivated by anything. Still follows cue but at her own leisurely pace. Get her worked up and excited and the behaviours speed up and snap. Luckily for me I like calm and cruisey! And luckily for her when she gets all excited she reacts to me quicker! Win win. I feel like she's really starting to appreciate some touch and praise a little more now too. The world (at least the immediate world around her; ie our yard, regular things) isn't as exciting as it was and she's happy to cuddle. When she's on she doesn't want pats! Just wants to explore.

 

 

[KobiD]

I still struggle with this concept at times.. and through my struggles I think what I am dealing with is a dog that is not very biddable, somewhat intelligent, and quite independent. She has drive when it suits, but isn't insanely driven to work unless if she is aware of the reason behind it. IE, a bag of food that she wants.. On a walk though if I decide to not mark and reward with food she'll then shift her focus into the environment rather than me. She has little interest in human contact, touch, petting, etc. She associates contact with food following. Games are the same.. Down on the value scale.

[The Spotted Devil]

Oh I can relate. My Dalmatian was the same as a youngster but I persisted and he’s now my “easy” agility dog. Kicks the girls butt AND what is funny is no one in agility circles remembers that he was EVER hard work  

[KobiD]

Persistence is key! Sometimes I need to let the frustration go and remember to work the dog that I have infront of me, and remember to look at her behaviours as hints to what I can use as alternative sources of reward.

 

This morning before writing this, on our morning walk she was very determined to follow her nose.. On leash, in the middle of the road. Nothing that should have been too overwhelming for her.. but I wasn't marking and rewarding for every time she'd be beside me in a nice relaxed state. She was trying to find the end of the leash, nose on the ground. I'd stop.. wait.. she'd circle back and off we'd go not even 2 steps and she'd be at it again. We repeated this cycle for a block before I had enough, told her off, and turned home. She pulled her head in, walked well.. we stopped a bit further.. she apologised (as they do) and I rewarded by heading out for some more walk. She continued to behave.. and was rewarded by a run off leash in the park where she promptly did some number 2 business.

 

In hindsight, did she just need to find a place to 'go' the whole time? Perhaps. Did I expect too much from her to walk as she usually does.. maybe.. The fact that the pocket full of biscuits I had weren't being dealt out made it not so usual as well.

 

Later we went for a 1.5hr walk through the bush with the young fella and her. We passed a few dogs. Some she struggled to ignore as they passed. Some she got to greet and behaved well for moments... but once again she tested my patience with her nose on the ground... pulling at her leash. I lost my cool and gave her another serving before she listened.. I don't like getting angry at her (or the kids).. and discussed after with the young fella that getting angry isn't the right way and that she is only doing what she feels is right in that environment.. good training for the kid at least..  From there opted that if sniffing was so keen for her, that we'd use that for the reward. If she'd sit on cue we'd release her to go sniff.. recall.. go sniff. etc. Really highlighted how much more work is needed in that regard though.  Need to carry either higher value treats, or continue to train in such environments to get her used to it. She wasn't bad, just different... and as we came back into the normal streets we usually walk her behaviour went right back to normal too.

 

She'll be 2 years in October.. so I also have to remember that she really is still a puppy too!

[Dogsfevr]

Sounds like a dog that is getting bored with such a regimented walk & routine that is always on your terms .
At 2 the dog isn't a puppy ,that is a young adult .
 

[KobiD]

43 minutes ago, Dogsfevr said:

Sounds like a dog that is getting bored with such a regimented walk & routine that is always on your terms .
At 2 the dog isn't a puppy ,that is a young adult .
 

I would agree.. but I won't..

 

The problem I have is that with a pocketful of food, flowing fast this dog will do whatever you please. Even with other rewards thrown in such as free running and sniffing. Withhold the treats and she immediately looks to self reward. I know I need to look into transferring value and I have been, but even then at times she just doesn't have a lot of motivation.

 

 

Not every walk is on my terms either.. but on leash I have certain expectations... which are not even strict. She can roam ahead, and behind.. she can sniff as long as she doesn't lag unless released to extended sniff.. But I do expect her to still have some attention on her handler and follow cue... not her nose to the ground leaning into the leash. As stated.. a few biscuits and a couple marks of the right behaviour and she'll play the game.. until a time at which she determines that something else is more rewarding..

 

This afternoon I brought a tennis ball with us to the park. She'll play ball on her terms.. Sometimes she'll retrieve and play.. other times you can throw it to her and she'll let it hit her in the face and continue to ignore it... regardless of how much you jump around passing the ball from hand to hand increasing the excitement. That is her.. she knows what she wants, and she knows what she doesn't.. The challenge for me is finding rewards in what she wants, and waiting for the behaviour I want before she gets what she wants... and knowing exactly what she wants at any given moment.. it makes it hard to transfer value when she is often focussed on only one thing at any given time.

 

On the whole she's a good girl though. Above I said she doesn't like praise or touch.. however if you get her in her town time, she'll happily climb on your lap and snuggle into your armpit... it just depends on her mood.

[KobiD]

Off topic, but another thing I've noticed is that the leash is a source of frustration for us both. Quiet often if something excites her on leash she leans into it and becomes fixated and it's very hard for me to gain her attention again. Same scenario off leash and she'll often move towards what she wants a little but still follow cue to either say hello or leave it.