Variable reinforcement schedule

[KobiD]

3 hours ago, Scottsmum said:

I couldn't be further from an expert on the matter, I might call my self an amateur if I was being kind.... but yes.  I always rewarded my dog with a treat or a bit pet or big over the top cuddle & fuss  - which was *just* higher value than a treat.  He would work for nothing - except toward the end - I'm not sure if it was achy joints or a declining brain or a combo of both or possibly just him being a stubborn old man LOL....  But in his healthier days he always appreciated a reward.  And who can blame him. I don't do to work for nothing and I love being acknowledged. So why expect them to work for nothing?

I understand! Cuddles and fuss and praise, and games would be good with me.. but I'm having trouble building the value into them. Games work really well.. when she's high energy and wants to play. Praise appears so so. She will sometimes take it, and other times blow me off. Same for belly rubs etc. Very time and place. Food trumps everything!!!

 

Not that I am complaining. It has made it very easy to work with her on the whole, and she's not very pushy with getting food either. She just gets very focussed.. which is great!! I'd just like to see similar focus and drive with other life rewards.

 

We're getting there though.. and I continue to try and build the praise value, and especially the game value. The life rewards like wanting to investigate or sniff when out on walks I have been using as well.

 

In some ways I think it will just take more time to where certain behaviours become nature and won't need to be reinforced as heavily. At the moment I feel like I am constantly rewarding everything positive I see, as to avoid her learning otherwise...

[corvus]

17 hours ago, KobiD said:

So you're more of an advocate for continuous reinforcement rather than variable? Does that mean you reward everything your dog does? Or as the behaviours become proved you simply keep increasing the requirements before rewarding?

Yep. Pretty much. And also yes to some degree. 

 

I think you have to appreciate the dog you have. I have two spitz breeds and a hound. Do they want to do stuff just because I asked them to? Hell no. They do not care about working with me. They will do stuff that directly benefits them. Do they care if I tell them they are a good dog and shower praise on them? A little. Do they care if I play with them? When in the mood. Do they care if I give them food? Always. So, if I am serious about them doing what I have asked, I reward with food. Most behaviours will decline if not maintained with sufficient reinforcement. If you have a dog with declining performance when certain reinforcers are used, that tells you those reinforcers are not sufficiently reinforcing to maintain the behaviour. You can build their stamina by asking for several behaviours before you reinforce, but it does not necessarily mean it will increase the value of your reinforcer. Even if you want to use a VRS, you should still reinforce 80% of the time or the behaviour is likely to decline. Again, if it's declining in spite of that, your problem is with the reinforcers you are using. 

[corvus]

If you want to build value for a particular reinforcer, it's about conditioning. If you only offer it when you are confident your dog really wants it, then they slowly forget that there are times they don't really want it, and just the presentation or signal that it's coming switches them on. For example, I'm currently building value for tug with the tiny hound. She likes tug in her house and backyard, but once out and about, she is far more interested in what's going on around her. She will work for food, because it's easy and low commitment. But, I had to work her up to that as well. So, we are working on tug in the same way. Call her in, see if she's interested, play for a few seconds, release and put the tug away. Repeat a few minutes later. If I present it when she's too distracted to play, it's not reinforcing, she won't play, and she'll learn that presentation of a tug means "meh". But if I present it when she's into it and she always has a great time with it and then I put it away before she's satiated, then I can slowly increase the frequency and duration of tugging and the mere presentation of the tug makes her feel like tugging. 

[KobiD]

Great advice corvus!

 

I think I should be able to use play quite well as a reward as well, as long as I condition her as you've said above. With certain toys she loves to chase and tug, but still working on a recall. She'd rather run off and chew than come back and have me throw again. I have been doing this more frequently as well and building/reinforcing behaviours this way too. Often mixing it up, so game game, slip a random food reward in.. maybe just praise for a slow half baked effort. 

 

I think the key will be me noticing when she begins to tire and stopping before she loses interest.

 

I feel like she has made some big gains in the last week with her excitement levels/impluse control both with people and other animals... so I definitely think we're making progress and moving in the right direction.. I'm just really good at over thinking and trying to stay one step infront. It seems every day she shows me something else I need to work on.. 

[Tassie]

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 9:08 AM, KobiD said:

...

 

Been having trouble getting a decent heel out of her when walking too. Take three steps nicely and reward and then she's 3 steps infront. She doesn't hold with or naturally drop into a sit. She tends to find the end of the leash and then back off, so not particularly pulling but leading and investigating. I continue to reward when she looks back to check in, or when I call her back (get back), or stops for me to make up ground (wait).

 

...

I'm an obedience and Rally O person (as well as agility, and tracking) and I've dabbled in Dances with Dogs ..Heelwork to Music and Freestyle ... so this is the perspective I'm commenting from.    One of the disservices we do to people who might some day want to compete with their dogs, is to let them think that 'heel' is anything other than a very specific kind of performance which will normally only be used and is only required, in a performance context.  I don't usually combine 'heeling' as I define it, with normal walking, which is done primarily for the dog's mental and physical satisfaction .. which will mean loose lead walking .. not the precise heeling which properly done, means the dog maintains position and head position .. often involving eye contact with the handler.  To me this is totally inconsistent with 'going for a pleasure/exercise walk.'   Certainly there are times when you want somewhat closer position from the dog on a walk .. for instance when going along a crowded footpath, but the really correct heel position is not required.

 

So if I'm going to train 'heeling', I actually start by building huge value for correct position, and then setting up situations where the dog can demonstrate understanding and value by choosing to heel .. either to come to the position while I'm stationary, or to come into the position while I'm moving.   (And I train this off lead, at home or in a safe, no distraction situation to start with.)

 

I really like the last bit of what you're saying in this paragraph I've quoted ... that's perfect for loose leash walking, and having her under effective control .. which for me, is all I would require from a walk.   And you can include, as TSD says, permission to spend some time sniffing.      I would rethink what you're doing with the 'heeling' training, and maybe do that at home .. in short bursts, with a high reward rate .. and obviously, using a different cue than one you use for loose leash walking.

 

Are you looking towards some performance competition work with her ?..   She reminds me of a beautiful dog I've seen competing who is a beautiful worker in obedience and Rally O, and has done wonderfully in tracking and track and search.

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Tassie

[KobiD]

I haven't actually cued her to heel at this stage. I've been using "let's go" to which I expect her to come back in to my left hand side and focus. I have been building that behaviour in the back yard with little distraction/in conjunction with feeding time and she can pull in quite well, but not competition level. So from that point of view we haven't really done any damage.

 

Do you tend to lure to get the correct heel position initially?? or more of a shaping exercise?

 

To be honest, I don't particularly have any drive towards competition/obedience work. I'm enjoying just spending time with the dog, the problem solving required to stay ahead of her, and the patience/skills it's teaching me (more so not to be so persistent when I'm starting to get frustrated). 

 

So I have taught her everything myself, with the wife and kids being involved in reinforcing the same principals/behaviours. The missus hasn't had many pets (and no dogs) in her life so it's all new to her and she has expressed going to do some obedience classes to build her confidence and knowledge a bit more, as well as socialising the dog in a controlled environment. We went with the kids and left the dog at home a few weeks ago to have a look and see what the classes are all about. They start their annual membership at the beginning of the financial year so she'll probably sign up then. Also saw the puppies sibling there.. very similar looking, perhaps a bit less leggy and more stocky build.. but very much the same excitable exuberant personality.

 

The cub is affiliated with Dogs Queensland, and holds competition trials for Agility, Jumping, Games, Obedience and Rally-O. They need to work through from beginner to level 3 before they can participate. I tried asking several times for a break down of the level requirements but couldn't get a straight answer. Regardless they would start her in beginner.. and personally I think the biggest challenge for her at this stage would be maintaining focus in the company of so many other dogs.. Just another thing we've been working on and making progress with.

 

Part of me wants to move slowly and keep her set up to succeed rather than to throw her in the frying pan and wait for her to settle. Both ways should work.. one would just be less frustrating for me at the end of the leash. 

 

[Tassie]

Good idea to go look at the club first, before jumping in.   There are pros and cons of training at club .. probably the biggest pro, as you've noted, is having the dog focus when you would like it, in the presence of other dogs ... but I do it in short bursts .. I tend to take a brain break for me and the dog .. just sit out for a little while, take the dog for a wee .. then come back in.   Most instructors won't mind .. they'll know you're advocating for your dog.  How interesting that you saw the pup's sibling.

 

And about teaching the really formal 'heel' position .. personally I lure to start with, because I'm impatient  .. but I do try to fade the lure fairly quickly .. but keep up a high rate of reinforcement, to encourage good choices.    Nose touch to hand is useful too.  

 

Oh, and if you do get interested in competition later, you can always use a different word for the precise position.   I use 'close' for heel on the left, side for heel on the right (for heelwork to music.

[KobiD]

While we had the sister in laws dog over we spent a lot of time working on focus while another dog was present. Really beneficial to have her there for a full week where we could focus on controlled socialisation, and given that the older dog wasn't interested in play it really allowed us to let them interact and then recall and either treat or play a game. Also as her loose leash walking has been coming along we've been able to go for walks as a family where having the kids tag along would be too much of a distraction for the dog. This in turn allows her to see more people and dogs in public. There is also a yard near by which has a border collie and an older retired bull arab which will happily come to the fence and sniff. Allows us to work with a barrier in a public place where she can learn to approach without being too excited, and get rewards for still listening.

 

Still more work to go with other dogs walking on leash, at distance she's OK, but typically gets a bit too excited if they pass by and will fixate and let out a few playful barks. She doesn't pull too much though, but getting her focussed back on walking is a bit of a challenge as she wants to follow the scent. Same goes when we leave our street out onto the main one where many dogs walk daily. She gets very overwhelmed with all the smells! Have been using that to help generalise/proof behavious. 

 

We're getting there. 

[KobiD]

Thought about starting another thread, but figured I'd ask here first.. Is there any way to teach a leave it, that means leave it now and leave it in 3 minutes?

 

Puppy has been coming along nicely. I still have my frazzled days where she tests me, but on the whole we're moving in the right direction.

 

I'm having issues when I go to work in the shed. It's like a playground for her. Flooring carpet! Kids toys! Buckets! Hoses!! More kids toys!! Rags.. Plus whatever I have on the workbench..

 

I could tie her up while I go in there.. but more often than not I have simply given her a bone which buys me 20-30mins to do what I have to do before she comes and bothers me. Other times when I've tried to just quickly do something it drives me nuts. She's into everything. Stealing toys and running off with them. It's good practice for leave it and drop it.. but she's strong willed and 2 seconds later she's going for it again. Will this be something she grows out of? Any suggestions for now?

 

I'm thinking either tie her back somewhere or give her something else to do (as I have been).

[Tassie]

Is it possible for you to have a crate or xpen in the shed, so that she could have her bone there if you're there for a time, or just a couple treats if you're just there for a short time.   So you would just set up a habit that when you go to the shed, she goes into her pen (which has value for her) and can watch safely.

 

[KobiD]

It would be possible barb. 

 

If she has her bone she's quite happy to sit outside by the door and chew away. I tied her off to something in the shed today and gave her a toy to play with and that worked alright. Once again I think it's a process of me needing to stay a step in front of her and not giving her the opportunity to frustrate me.. she's so determined at times! I might try and incorporate a few more training sessions in there and heavily rewarding calm behaviour. I have done this before, but it's difficult when you want your mind on task, and on the dog at the same time.

 

Coming up to 7 months old now, and she has been mellowing so hopefully with time she'll be happy to lay on a mat and chill.

 

Still working with a couple new 'tricks' but mainly focusing on manners with the children, play (tug and retrieving), gentle greetings with people, and her impulse control towards other dogs. Daily work going in, and seeing the rewards. I think we're on the right track given her age.

 

I don't think she's been a difficult puppy, but she's definitely been teaching me a thing or two about patience. I find it interesting how hard and determined she is.. very independent and fearless... but at the same time so happy to be picked up and cuddled like a little lap dog still. 

[KobiD]

I've hijacked my own thread and taken it off topic a bit.

It appears we have hit either the 2nd fear period or adolescence. All was progressing really well, and still is mostly, but the last week has thrown some unforeseen behavioural challenges our way.

 

Some whinging or barking to try and raise our attention. We've continued with ignoring the behaviour and marking and rewarding when she stops and lays down. It doesn't take too long for her to work out what we're after, but she's definitely trying hard to see what she can get away with.

 

Same sort of response to environmental changes. Dogs barking in the neighbourhood will raise her, and get her acting a bit more territorial and chiming in. I've just been calling her back and acknowledging that something is out there but it's not a problem. Rewarding when she returns and settles. Sometimes asking for some other behaviours to try and make sure she doesn't associate the reward with the barking.

 

Same has carried over into our walks. She has always been a bit reactive on leash, wanting to pull and/or bark. Not really lunging or over the top out of control. Have been working hard to at threshold to reward calm behaviour and was making some big improvements. Seems to be a bit touch and go last couple days. Sometimes she'll be happy to play our games and let them pass. Other times she feels the need to speak up.

 

I'm in two minds to try and work through it, and continue the daily walks and exposure, or perhaps I should just shelter her for a week or two and limit opportunity to continue learning the undesirable behaviours.

 

Or could it be an extinction burst, where we almost had a break through and she's giving it a final test??

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I would suggest you go back and read the whole thread again - with a new training task in mind.  

 

(from Bob Bailey)

What have you got? (A)   What do you want? (B)  How do you get from A to B.

 

Sometimes teaching a dog to bark on cue - really helps with getting it to be quiet on cue.

 

I have some problems sometimes (I hate intermittant problems) with my dog reacting unpleasantly towards other dogs we see on walks.  She's much more reactive near home or in the car towards dogs outside of it - ie spaces she regards as her territory.  Which I guess is pretty normal but I'm trying to redefine the boundaries / limits of her territory eg if person (and/or dog)  is on the footpath outside our property - they're none of her business.  

So we practice from the front door to the gate... if she reacts - we go back until she's calm - which can include going back through the front door and shutting it until the hackles are gone.

 

Out on walks - it can be harder to avoid other dogs that we don't know.   I do have a sort of "cue" for "I see someone I know and like".  Which is "who dat dere?" or "where's Linda?" (aunty chicken).    Which seems to completely defuse her hackles.    I have to be a little bit careful because sometimes if she's disappointed it's not a dog or person she knows - she can then react unpleasantly.  Sometimes it's frustration - she wants to be friendly and she can't so she does the growly thing like it's the other dog's fault she can't reach.   Don't know why she does that - it's not like I've ever let her go greet if she's gone from super friendly to growly.

But my tone - goes a long way towards putting her in a good mood, or a protective mood.  For instance if I scold someone for not picking up after their dog - she will help.  So I have to use a super friendly sing song tone "do you need a bag for that?" "oh you won't?"  "don't come back then" (best crazy person voice).

The other thing I sometimes do (mostly with cats) - is if I see the cat first - I feed her lots of treats to get her attention on me, and then I point out the cat - "look at that" and if she can *stay* calm and look at me (kath and kim), she gets more treats.    I can sometimes do that with other dogs.   But she's selective about what dogs she likes and what dogs she hates.   And then I just try to limit the behaviour as best I can.  Body blocking, and keeping her away from the other dog.  Beware of the dog owner that does not understand the body blocking and will come up behind you with their dog who still wants to say hello to the snarling monster on my lead.  FFS I do not have eyes in the back of my head - you can see my dog is upset - stay away.   Fortunately that does not happen very often.

What does not work for us, is she sees the cat first, lunges at it, then looks at me for treats... no way am I feeding that.  I did once, but not any more because she joins the lunging with the calm and happy, with the treats and does it as a combo trick.  ARGH.   I can pats and praise the calm but not feed it.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[KobiD]

We have a cat here, and she is OK with him. The occasional bark because she wants to come inside and play with him, but it's never rewarded. The times they have been together she's more interested in his food bowl than the cat as a source of food. Cats on walks I have treated the way you have. Food > Cat. Same works for birds. She's very focussed and interested. Tends to point, at which I reward and we refocus elsewhere. Food > Bird.

 

Dogs can be different. Her energy level shifts right up. She'll still listen and work for food but the drive is through the roof. Fast reactions to cue where typically she's pretty relaxed (slow). I tend to try and avoid rewarding for barking at all. An unfamiliar string of behaviour and focus will get big rewards. Then ask for more. If she barks we move and start over.

 

I am mono-tone and not nervy or peppy by nature at all. I am probably pretty boring for her really, and I have to work to be exciting. I don't really try to be exciting though. I try to be consistent.

 

I think it's developmental as some behaviours are strengthening, and the increases we've seen haven't been due to a lack of training or accidently rewarding something. They have come on at the same time she's increased chewing as well.

 

The general barking I just use an interrupter. If she stops I follow with reward. She doesn't tend to go stupid barking uncontrollably and running away ignoring all cue's so again, it's redirecting.. but I don't want it to become a matter of she barks and I come to her to redirect. I'd rather nip it before it happens. But obviously smells/sights/sounds can sometimes be obvious to the dog well before they are to us.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

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I've just been calling her back and acknowledging that something is out there but it's not a problem. Rewarding when she returns and settles. Sometimes asking for some other behaviours to try and make sure she doesn't associate the reward with the barking.

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The general barking I just use an interrupter.

* cues * can be rewarding for some dogs.  For some dogs when you call them - it's the same as if you just fed them a treat (or played a game of tug or gave them something else they love).   This is awesome in most situations but not when you're trying to prevent a behaviour (eg barking) from increasing.

 

For my dog - we have a good "collar grab" eg I reach out my hand to grab her, if she's barking or jumping on the fence - I'd rather go grab and hold her collar and wait for her to calm down than call her (rewarding for some dogs and worse if it's ignored).  I then play "its yer choice" with "freedom" as the reward.  Eg dog now calm - I let go, if she goes back to fence jumping or barking - I grab and hold again... waiting for calm.  Get calm, let go - if there's more fence jumping /barking - we go inside (I put her on lead and we leave the back yard).    This works for us. 

If you're getting a behaviour you don't want - it doesn't really matter why it's happening (development, fear periods, other dogs, don't care) - what do you want?  how do you get there? 

 

You can't ignore it completely because barking and lunging is "self rewarding" and will increase if you don't interrupt it.  How you interrupt it - depends on what your dog finds rewarding.  Eg yelling, recall, collar grab, handful of treats and "find it game"...  any of these might work or fail - it's up to you to pay attention to see if your dog is beginning to bark so she gets your attention/treats/cues or if the unwanted barking is reducing.

about the cat - you can substitute "distracting thing for your dog" in for "cat" - "cats" are very distracting for my dog but not for every dog.   Pay attention to what your dog finds distracting, a little bit, a bit, a lot - each of these are grades of training opportunities, ie start with the easy to ignore distraction and build up to the hard to ignore distraction to get the behaviour you want.

[KobiD]

We're not really having too many issues with the distractions, and are doing as you've said. Working with varying degrees of distraction while keeping her under threshold where she'll still listen and learn. If it's too much we either reduce the distraction or increase distance, but ideally we're reading her body language and marking the behaviour before it falls apart. I tend to post here on the more frustrating days where she's tested me and I need to vent.

 

The main challenge she's doing at the moment is crying/barking to get our attention. Ie she is outside, we are inside having dinner. She wants to come in so sits at the door. IMO getting up from my meal to tell her to lay down is rewarding her behaviour. Cue-ing to be quiet is the same. I've taken the approach where we all continue discussing, eating, etc but no one makes eye contact with the dog. When she lays down quietly we mark and then drop her a reward and go back to eating again. I think it's the right approach, but like all training it will take time.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

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Ie she is outside, we are inside having dinner. She wants to come in so sits at the door.

I've had that problem - at home - I'm happy for her to share the couch with me as long as she's not trying to steal my dinner... which she doesn't. 

But when I'm visiting friends - she can be appalling so she either ends up in the car or a crate - where she's quite well behaved.  sigh. 

I think you're on the right track with what is rewarding and how to train different.   I'd also be looking at some way to prevent the behaviour getting started (eg dog in  (covered?) crate before you sit down to dinner).   I always feed my dog before I eat - which is against Cesar Milan's rules but I don't think it's lead to anything bad on her part.    The main reason I do that is because I can forget if I've fed her or not and the easiest way to be sure is always feed her first.   And I can't trust what she says on whether she's been fed or not.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[KobiD]

We typically feed our dog between 4pm and 6pm at the latest. We usually don't sit down for a meal until 6:30. I don't think it is the cause of the issues though. More so that we have usually been outside playing with the kids and dogs, pretty much right up to when we have dinner. Then everyone comes inside and she is left out. I could give her a kong to keep her busy, but we use them for times we are leaving her home alone, or when we have guests and eat outside.

 

It could be that I need to come inside a bit sooner and let her relax before we start eating too.

 

I think the important part is that she doesn't get her way through wimpering or barking.

[KobiD]

The other thing we sometimes do is simply close the glass door. Easier to ignore her when she's not as loud, and she seems to get the idea that her noise further isolates her from us.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

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More so that we have usually been outside playing with the kids and dogs, pretty much right up to when we have dinner.

I can see her point of view - she doesn't want the fun to end.