Variable reinforcement schedule

[KobiD]

Our little puppy is very food motivated, and as such has been very fast to learn with even dry kibble presenting as high value. She has very good impulse control as well and is very well mannered around food and treats. Doesn't jump or snatch, drops into a sit or down usually without prompting and focus for days. I have been giving rewards for inconsistently, and increasing the duration or difficulty of the task and rewarding as to what I believe is fair. All of that appears to be going well.

 

When we move into a different environment it shows that she hasn't got everything generalised yet, and we often take a step back and I reward more freely until I see progress happening.

 

The problem is that she seems to know when I have access to treats and when I don't. I have seen her focus on my hand rather than eyes at times, or glances back at forwarth. I have let her know I that sometimes I have treats, and she doesn't get them, and other times I don't but good behaviour will result in me going to get one. This seems to be received well also.

 

However, at times when I don't have anything and she is feeling rather determined, she follows her will rather than the cue (verbal or hand signal(backup cue)). I'm lost as to what to do in this situation. I have tried physically placing her into position, which has mixed results. Sometimes she complies, other times she sees it as a game and mouths away at me, which only frustrates me more that now she's not listening and also doing a 2nd unwanted behaviour. I usually get the grumps and walk off giving her a time out, but she really doesn't care that much. She's not clingy/needy and somewhat independent (has its benefits as well!).

 

So what would be suggested here? I don't want to go back get treats and then try again as that only reinforces that she will get me to get treats if she doesn't listen. I don't want to get frustrated or mouthed, and I don't want her to learn that she can choose to ignore cue's when it suits her. I also don't want to have to carry treats 100% of the time. Like always, this happens when she is either overtired, or excited, more often than not.

 

I often have treats in my pocket, I could always fake to grab some. I know she see's this as a visual cue that something is coming, along with my body position and posture as well. I try to mix it up and keep her guessing, but she still knows how to read me quite well.

 

[Bushriver]

All I would suggest is for awhile, while she is still a pup, only give a command when you are fairly sure she's in the mood to listen. If she's tired, put her away to sleep or if she's got the crazies, put her outside for a play. Do training sessions when she's switched on and listening. When you've got that 100% then move to the next stage big that's not working, go back to the beginning. 

[Papillon Kisses]

Here you go!

 

https://thelightofdog.com/dog-treat/

 

 

[KobiD]

Thanks for the link, and the suggestions, but neither answer my questions.

 

I have been doing that, mixing it up and being unpredictable in both the values of treats, the requirements to get the treats, sometimes I have treats which the pup doesn't get, and sometimes I go and get her a treat while she sits patiently at an open door knowing I don't have anything.

 

But how do I handle the situation where I have asked a behaviour and she doesn't comply?? I only ask once, and if she doesn't comply... then what?

 

All I am asking is a sit while I open the door. It's not opening until she stops thinking she's coming through the doorway as well. Physically holding her back leads to mouthing and frustrates me. Probably more than 9 times out of 10 she displays the behaviour I'm after.. but I'm not certain how to handle the 1.

 

It usually occurs in the morning after her breakfast, so could be a) she wants more attention, or b) more food. I guess I can try and be more patient and offer more attention for a bit before coming back inside.

[The Spotted Devil]

There always needs to be reinforcement. But not always food! It could be a game with you, playing tug, retrieving, being let off the leash, getting in or out of the car or even just being released from the sit. When I open the front door, my dogs are expected to offer a sit and they are rewarded by being allowed in or out. No sit. No reward. Now if you don't want your pup to go outside then maybe the reward is to send pup to grab a toy to play tug with you. Remember that doors often mean someone arriving or the dog getting to what they want....which equates to increased arousal.  Hence the biting and frustration. It's as difficult as landing the pup in a novel environment. Try having dry treats discretely in your back pocket, reward the sit then send for the toy for a tug game. Mix up how you deliver your rewards and the toy of reward you use. 

 

Does that help?

[KobiD]

I haven't worked on her going to get her toys or to fully retrieve. The tug toys and such are kept out of reach and only used when in the presence of a human under rules. Leave it, drop it, get it. We use the game as rewards too, but for this dog her currency is food. I haven't seen her turn her nose up at anything yet. Have dry treats in my pockets most times, sometimes she gets them, sometimes not.. I have been mixing where I will offer treats from hand, thrown to find, scattered, placed on the ground and told to leave until the OK cue is given, sourced from a closed hand, a bowl of treats on a bench/table, or as above told lets get a treat and then I go get one.

 

I will try going for a game of tug or such next time she won't listen and try and engage her in another drive. Might be enough to drain some excitement and refocus.
 

She's also sitting between 3 and 4 months at the moment and hasn't lost any milk teeth, so I'm sure they'll be coming soon. Might explain why she's been a bit more mouthy these last couple days too.

 

She gets a pet as rewards too, or a scratch, but sometimes she doesn't really dig it if she's in food drive. When she's resting she loves to crawl into your lap and have a snuggle. Different rewards at different times.

 

What would you do if you had to get through the door and the dog was meant to stay on the other side of it and wasn't listening?

[KobiD]

I guess the challenge from my point of view, is in how to introduce the VR while maintaining skills. Everything I have read around positive reinforcement suggests you cannot give too many treats when learning a new behaviour, and definitely not when training temperament (touch desensitisation etc). On the other hand, there are many search results for dogs that only perform for tricks, and how to change that through varying the rewards (both type and frequency).

 

I see it as something that will need to be implemented gradually to get best results, but getting the timing right on skills that are still not proved is tough. Would you simply continue treating heavily across all situations, or only the ones that require it? Or am I overthinking things?

[Bushriver]

You might be over thinking it, but that's understandable. I am not an expert, but have always found that if I treat or reward as much as needed in the beginning by the time they are adult dogs they are happy to follow commands with very minimal treats. Of course there are always times when things go wrong, no matter what your strategy. Be patient and try again. For the door way, is she trying to get out infront of you? I would block with your legs while the door is open.  Wait there as long as needed until she calms down. When you have the time, go in and out many times of a morning so it's not so exciting. 

[The Spotted Devil]

Oh at 3 or 4 months I'd be rewarding EVERYTHING!!!! If I really needed to get out the door I'd pop pup in his pen for a few minutes. Don't work on a behaviour unless you're prepared to follow through. So I've had a pup bouncing at the door and I've just stood there ignoring him and replying to emails on my phone. Manage what you can't train. 

[KobiD]

So at this stage in development you wouldn't be concerned about over rewarding with treats or games? She does respond very well to it, but I'm just concerned that she will become dependent on treats. I see signs of her expectations already and kind of wanted to nip it in the bud persay.

 

We've been pretty consistent in ignoring behaviours that we don't want, and rewarding what we do. There is usually someone home most days, so the days are filled with opportunity for short sessions. Puppy isn't very clingy and very independent.. it makes withdrawing attention not a very strong motivator/consequence.

 

We spend at least one session on leash each day doing loose leash walking and basic obedience. I have another thread running too, so also have a couple of children to balance into the act. Today has been a more challenging day.

[KobiD]

The door generally doesn't present as a problem. I can often put her in a sit stay and leave the door open, stroll through and back. It's just this morning she decided to ignore the sit and kept moving over to the door and blocking. She wasn't being over excited or jumpy. Just getting in the way and when I'd try to open the door she'd try and push through. When I'd pull her back she'd mouth.

 

She has been stupid mouthy today in general though. I do suspect she's teething.

 

With a pocket full of kibble she'll do almost anything you want, but she clearly shows focus on the treat rather than me. I had been using her name as 'look at me' and does turn to look every time I say her name, but if I stop marking and rewarding as frequently her willingness to play the game declines too.

 

I feel torn between 2 evils. If I try and change up the rewards too much too soon it'll teach her she can ignore me and get away with it. On the other hand if I reward all the time I'll end up with a dog that ignores me when I have no food regardless.

 

Perhaps I should continue marking and rewarding often, and then worry about phasing them out a bit as she matures more!

[The Spotted Devil]

Dependent on treats is a bit of a furphy really....sorry just home from work and need to play with my doggies. Back later  

[Tassie]

It will be worth waiting for TSD .  

IMO this age, and particularly while she's teething, the main emphasis is on strengthening the relationship and her behaviours with lots of rewards - as TSD says .. various kinds ..and coming from various places, as you're doing.  And for situations, particularly involving the children, managing with a leash or pen so that she can figure things out a bit more and everyone can stay calm.       In the event of non compliance, think about whether the pup really knows the cue in a variety of situations and levels of arousal, and depending on the answer maybe tweak your training plan .. which at this age will always be quite flexible.   TSD and I have an online guru whose NRM goes something like .. calmly saying something like "I don't think so" while you reset or manage.

[corvus]

The way I see it...

She CAN ignore you and "get away with it". When you ask her to do something, you are making a request, not a command that she must obey. The game is to make it in her best interests to not ignore you. And you do that by rewarding her often and in many contexts and with many types of reward. When you give a cue, you are essentially asking her a question. "Would you like a reward?" If she performs the behaviour, the answer is "yes". If she doesn't perform the behaviour, then the answer is "no". So, if you can't bear to see "no" for whatever reason (and there are reasons - I don't want to see "no" when I recall!), then it is your job to set everything up so that you have a very high chance of getting "yes". If you still get "no", then you have two choices: 1) a response cost; 2) chalk it up as a loss and learn from it. A response cost to me is for highly rewarding behaviours and very resilient and optimistic dogs that are doing something because it does something for them and they are happy to choose that over your rewards. For pups, I would rarely bother. Just reward and keep rewarding until they are so confident they will get rewarded if they do the behaviour when cued that they never really hesitate. I wouldn't ask unless I had rewards ready. I also wouldn't generally ask if I can't accept "no". In a home environment with a behaviour that's not a huge deal, I just assume they don't want my rewards after all and walk away. I usually come back and ask them again 10 seconds later. They have often changed their mind by then. 

[KobiD]

Great reply.

 

I don't know what was up, but the particular day I started this thread we was a particularly challenging one with her. I think she was just off (or I was and we were feeding off each other). We both seem to be back on track again now though, at least for the moment.

 

Could you define what a response cost is?

 

I don't particularly agree with the whole "would you like a reward?" I see it more as "I've nicely asked you to do something, and I expect you listen, respect, and if you're a good girl you'll get a reward." I also feel that her choice to be defiant needs to have a consequence, not simply that "oh you wouldn't like a treat! OK!". But as you've said, there are times you'll enforce this more than others. As my partner and I often say when the kids are testing us .... "choose your battles!".

 

I'm not advocating punishment, but do believe in discipline/consequences. If that is as simple as taking my attention away and it works then that's great (and is what I have been doing). If it means a NRM and lack of treat then I'll apply that too.

 

I don't think I was asking too much for the puppy to sit and stay while I moved through the door without having a treat on the ready..  But then again, in that particular moment I obviously was, and these things will happen from time to time.

 

Overall she's shaping up quite well and each day starting to feel more like a dog and less like a puppy.

 

 

 

[Roova]

I have some thoughts when reading the above but could be applying them out of context as I am no expert!  

 

Regarding the sentence's " I don't particularly agree with the whole "would you like a reward?" I see it more as "I've nicely asked you to do something, and I expect you listen, respect, and if you're a good girl you'll get a reward" . Also the sentence "I don't think I was asking too much for the puppy to sit and stay while I moved through the door without having a treat on the ready". 
 
Reinforcement is anything which immediately follows a behaviour and serves to maintain or increase the frequency of that behaviour in the future.  Understanding reinforcement (and competing reinforcers) allows a better understand of an animals behaviour and the choices they're making.  They aren't being naughty or bad if they don't do what you want, they're just doing the most reinforcing thing available to them.   If you assess the environment and what's happening at the time you ask for a behaviour it makes it easier for them to perform what you're after as opposed to the 'wrong' behavior.  (Also presumably you aren't asking too much from a still learning mind).  

 

Anytime you ask your dog to do something, or you want to do something to your dog you can ask yourself three questions

   Does my dog want to do what I ask?

   If not, why might that be?

   What can I add or remove so he'll be more motivated to do it.

 

Using what your dog finds reinforcing when training, be it food, a game, praise etc is simply using a tool at your disposal. Much like us going to work, if we only got paid when the boss felt like it, we would be more inclined to lose interest or not work as hard when there. Its the expectation and need of our reward which keeps our work level high.  We don't need to see our 'money' waved in front of our face, but we know its coming.

 

In regard to listening and respect this is definitely a two way street if you want a good relationship with your dog.  Work at their pace, respect comfort levels and try again later where necessary, reward attempts, keep an eye on body language and have respect for their right to say no at times.  These things can make them want to participate in future training and increases behavioural health.

 

Anyway sorry if I read more in those sentences that I should have lol

 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Roova

[KobiD]

No offence taken, and I do agree with what you are saying too.

 

In the event that she played up that morning, I don't think I was asking too much from her, but I do know in hindsight that my patience was lacking and she probably picked up on it.

As of this morning she's lost her 2 front teeth, so I believe some teething was definitely pains were definitely involved that day which would explain her change in behaviour a bit as well.

 

Fully aware respect is a two way street. While my post above might sound like it's my way or the highway, I think that the standard of behaviour you accept will be the standard you achieve.. and to be honest, I don't expect too much of it. This was a behaviour she's been doing since almost the first week we got her (8 weeks old), so I did have some expectations of her to perform.

 

I like your analogy of work. If you give the dog something she loves to do, she'll do it for the love of doing it (self rewarding behaviours). If you give her something she doesn't really enjoy she won't be so keen in doing it, however if you follow that with something she does enjoy it will sweeten the deal. A means to an end, and revolves around the end being worth the effort involved. I know I'd rather do something I love doing for free, which highlights the importance in finding some games, etc which the dog finds rewarding in itself. For ours it's tug.

[KobiD]

And further to last, I also know people who simply turn up to work, to do very little, and only for the 'pay'. I guess what I'm saying is that I would like my dog to have good work ethics, rather than a sense of entitlement.. Could say the same about a lot of people too. Haha

 

The other aspect is that we also get paid weekly/fortnightly. I don't expect to be paid after I finish each little thing throughout the day. I'd think the same true for the dog, which is kind of what the thread is about. Varying the rewards and frequency so that the animal feels valued and respected, but not just paid off with treats for each and every thing it does throughout the day.

Edited February 15, 2017 by KobiD

[The Spotted Devil]

KobiD, what I tend to suggest to people is to take the interpretation out of it - work ethic, sense of entitlement, getting paid weekly etc. What you need to remember is that you as a human being have a much larger frontal lobe than a dog. You have the ability to apply logic, have a sense of self and consciously consider the past and the future. Your dog is different. Look at the behaviour in front of you. Just because she could do it yesterday doesn't mean she can do it today. There are often things happening that we can't perceive. Motivation changes minute to minute, distractions pop up, the body is developing physically and emotionally. I have a 22 month old ESS who is suddenly sooky and all over the place emotionally - focus takes huge effort from me, she's super sensitive and needs her confidence built up. It's possible her hormones are up and down because she seems to be having a false pregnancy. But that's not an excuse. I just look at the dog in front of me afresh every day and train her. Whatever she needs at the time - split the behaviour down, reduce distractions, manipulate quality of reinforcement. Quite simply it is what it is.

[KobiD]

Great advice TSD. Appreciate your input!