Congestive Heart Failure

[Scottsmum]

***Not Scottie***

Need advice before I speak to a family member who's freaking out.

So a family dog is a senior, Fox Terrier type, approx 13+, rescue, abusive/abandoned background but has lived in the lap of luxury for last 7+ years.

She has a lump which may or may not be malignant - vet wont operate as it's on the leg so too hard to remove and close surgical wound and "if it is malignant, they'll only be able to partly remove it and that will make it worse" - I'll be suggesting they find out IF it IS malignant and act from there but they other reason they don't want to operate is that she has also been diagnosed with with a heart murmur & wont survive the surgery. The vet has said the murmur will ultimately lead to congestive heart failure & will be terminal.

As I said, owner of said dog is freaking & not happy with the vet as they've said there is nothing else to do other than watch and wait and re-check the heart in May.

So.....I've never dealt with heart failure in a pet - is this reasonable? What else can be done? (I suppose I mean medically? testing? Hills H/D? [she's already on Hills Senior - would H/D be better?] She is overweight and I have spoken to them about this before - so that's an obvious 'easy win' ...anything else???)

Owner is planning to get second opinion. Can anyone recommend a good vet between the Blue Mountains and Westmead (NSW)? PM is totally ok :)

Thanks guys.

[juice]

Ozz had heart failure in the end, not sure its the same as this, he had grade 3 for a long time that jumped to a 5 , he lived for 5 months after that on meds.

He was 11.

I can recommend Rappie, she treated Ozz and works at the vet at the AWL at kemps creek, so straight down the motorway from the mountains.she only works a few days so you need to book her.

pm her?

[Scottsmum]

Awesome. thanks Juice.

[juice]

And if they need meds i still have almost full new bottles of ozzies, i bought a fresh supply a few days before we lost him, and they are not cheap!

[Scottsmum]

And if they need meds i still have almost full new bottles of ozzies, i bought a fresh supply a few days before we lost him, and they are not cheap!

Will keep that in mind. She's a wee slip of a thing :)

[juice]

Smaller dogs have a longer survival rate apparantley , over 20kg much less , we were lucky Ozz got an extra 5 months .

[Scottsmum]

I believe, from the tiny, minuscule amount I do know its more common in small dogs too? Could be totally wrong.

Have PM'ed Rappie :D

[Papillon Kisses]

Tuffy had congestive heart failure. I'll reply later, but in short he was diagnosed with his heart murmur at 15 and passed at 18. I don't know at what stage his heart murmur was when diagnosed, apart from it being bad enough to warrant specialist care and monitoring when he needed a dental that year. I guess what I'm saying is that while it's a rotten rotten thing at the end her dog may have a number of years of reasonable health and quality of life ahead

[Loving my Oldies]

I’d be getting an appointment at Animal Referral Hospital Homebush. I can’t think of anything much worse than not having confidence in your vet.

Congestive heart failure or heart murmur --- is there a difference? I don’t know.

I remember a long time ago a vet telling me that most animals who live long enough (and must humans) will have some sort of murmur to some degree.

Hope your rellie can get good and sensible advice and management program.

[Scottsmum]

Thanks DDD :)

[Scottsmum]

Tuffy had congestive heart failure. I'll reply later, but in short he was diagnosed with his heart murmur at 15 and passed at 18. I don't know at what stage his heart murmur was when diagnosed, apart from it being bad enough to warrant specialist care and monitoring when he needed a dental that year. I guess what I'm saying is that while it's a rotten rotten thing at the end her dog may have a number of years of reasonable health and quality of life ahead

Thanks PK. I'm not so worried about the diagnosis - its simply the "joy" of having an old dog. I just need to be armed with knowledge... you know.... Re-checking in May could be totally acceptable and normal in this case. But not operating ever again or even finding out if the lump is cancerous doesn't seem like best care to me.

[Papillon Kisses]

Ok I'm back. But probably don't have much to add.

I think seeing a specialist would probably be a good idea or even just another vet for a second opinion. As you know Tuffy's heart murmur wasn't picked up initially, it was only when mum went to see another vet for a second opinion/quote for his dental that they found it and subsequently referred him onto Sydney Uni Vet Hospital where they did an ultrasound etc. and also did his surgery with a specialist anaesthetist, additional nursing staff, etc etc. They did come close to losing him on the table but it was the a situation where he'd have died if they didn't do his dental as his teeth were that bad. So you have to weigh up various things. I personally would not have a regular vet operate on a compromised dog. As a side note, if they operate on the leg maybe they could simultaneously do a dental (you wouldn't want him under too long though).

I think very highly of ARH through my experience with Malcolm, so would recommend going there.

In terms of living with a dog with CHF two of the big things is being careful with exercise and heat. They don't cope with too much of either. So no long walks, fan on if it's hot, cool coat or mat if needed etc. We lived at the bottom of a hill so if taking him for a walk late in his life we'd carry him up, then he'd have a little potter around on the flat, then carry him back down again, and only when it was cool. Mostly had a 'turn about the garden' though, carrying him up and down the steps. :)

For your friend's little mite getting excess weight off should be another priority as it increases load on the heart as you'd probably know. The usual rigmarole: less kibble, more veg. Tuffy wasn't on a specialist diet, maybe the h/d didn't exist back then? I seem to recall that one of the big things is not giving foods that are high in salt.

You've just got to be very careful towards the end. Death from CHF is not pretty. Know what vets are in your area and their after hours times, whether any do housecalls, should god forbid the dog need to be given his wings unplanned. And don't leave it too long.

Thank you for putting in the thread title and up too that it was not Scottie.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Papillon Kisses

[Loving my Oldies]

Thanks PK. I'm not so worried about the diagnosis - its simply the "joy" of having an old dog. I just need to be armed with knowledge... you know.... Re-checking in May could be totally acceptable and normal in this case. But not operating ever again or even finding out if the lump is cancerous doesn't seem like best care to me.

SM, I had a little lump removed from my leg some months ago. Turned out it was “questionable” and I was given a chemotherapy cream to apply for a few weeks and then another visit to the skin specialist in a couple of months time. He said to me that to have it cut out would cause more problems than were worth it because of where it was. Might be the same for this little dog. Not much room for any sort of excision clearance in dogs’ legs.

Still worth seeing a specialist though, I would have thought.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Dame Danny's Darling

[Scottsmum]

Ok I'm back. But probably don't have much to add.

I think seeing a specialist would probably be a good idea or even just another vet for a second opinion. As you know Tuffy's heart murmur wasn't picked up initially, it was only when mum went to see another vet for a second opinion/quote for his dental that they found it and subsequently referred him onto Sydney Uni Vet Hospital where they did an ultrasound etc. and also did his surgery with a specialist anaesthetist, additional nursing staff, etc etc. They did come close to losing him on the table but it was the a situation where he'd have died if they didn't do his dental as his teeth were that bad. So you have to weigh up various things. I personally would not have a regular vet operate on a compromised dog. As a side note, if they operate on the leg maybe they could simultaneously do a dental (you wouldn't want him under too long though).

I think very highly of ARH through my experience with Malcolm, so would recommend going there.

In terms of living with a dog with CHF two of the big things is being careful with exercise and heat. They don't cope with too much of either. So no long walks, fan on if it's hot, cool coat or mat if needed etc. We lived at the bottom of a hill so if taking him for a walk late in his life we'd carry him up, then he'd have a little potter around on the flat, then carry him back down again, and only when it was cool. Mostly had a 'turn about the garden' though, carrying him up and down the steps. :)

For your friend's little mite getting excess weight off should be another priority as it increases load on the heart as you'd probably know. The usual rigmarole: less kibble, more veg. Tuffy wasn't on a specialist diet, maybe the h/d didn't exist back then? I seem to recall that one of the big things is not giving foods that are high in salt.

You've just got to be very careful towards the end. Death from CHF is not pretty. Know what vets are in your area and their after hours times, whether any do housecalls, should god forbid the dog need to be given his wings unplanned. And don't leave it too long.

Thank you for putting in the thread title and up too that it was not Scottie.

Sadly its a bit more like "more kibble, less foie gras" - and I'm only partly joking! Her human daddy spoils her rotten!

Thanks for the hints too - feeling a bit more prepared to have the conversation now. Unfortunately it's our darling Jem - so might as well be Scotland in some ways :/

[Scottsmum]

Thanks PK. I'm not so worried about the diagnosis - its simply the "joy" of having an old dog. I just need to be armed with knowledge... you know.... Re-checking in May could be totally acceptable and normal in this case. But not operating ever again or even finding out if the lump is cancerous doesn't seem like best care to me.

SM, I had a little lump removed from my leg some months ago. Turned out it was “questionable” and I was given a chemotherapy cream to apply for a few weeks and then another visit to the skin specialist in a couple of months time. He said to me that to have it cut out would cause more problems than were worth it because of where it was. Might be the same for this little dog. Not much room for any sort of excision clearance in dogs’ legs.

Still worth seeing a specialist though, I would have thought.

Yeh -Not questioning not removing it so much - have had a few lumps taken off legs in my time. Why do the foxies in my life like to get questionable lumps on their legs? Little buggers! Was more questioning the wisdom of "if its malignant we'll just stir it up and we can't really get it off anyhow..." I mean - if its not malignant I'd like to know so we can not worry so much - and if it is - well at least brace myself.

I'll mention the cream to the owner.

Thanks again DDD :)

[Papillon Kisses]

Oh no, not sweet little Jemima. That's very sad. Love to you and your family.

[Papillon Kisses]

Thanks PK. I'm not so worried about the diagnosis - its simply the "joy" of having an old dog. I just need to be armed with knowledge... you know.... Re-checking in May could be totally acceptable and normal in this case. But not operating ever again or even finding out if the lump is cancerous doesn't seem like best care to me.

SM, I had a little lump removed from my leg some months ago. Turned out it was “questionable” and I was given a chemotherapy cream to apply for a few weeks and then another visit to the skin specialist in a couple of months time. He said to me that to have it cut out would cause more problems than were worth it because of where it was. Might be the same for this little dog. Not much room for any sort of excision clearance in dogs’ legs.

Still worth seeing a specialist though, I would have thought.

Yeh -Not questioning not removing it so much - have had a few lumps taken off legs in my time. Why do the foxies in my life like to get questionable lumps on their legs? Little buggers! Was more questioning the wisdom of "if its malignant we'll just stir it up and we can't really get it off anyhow..." I mean - if its not malignant I'd like to know so we can not worry so much - and if it is - well at least brace myself.

I'll mention the cream to the owner.

Thanks again DDD :)

Maybe it does? But I certainly would want to hear that from a specialist or at least a vet I trusted. There may be other diagnostic measures and/or treatments.

If they put her on Hills H/D do suggest they shop around for better prices online. Those prescription diets can be quite exxy. Mind you, so is pâté! :laugh:

[Rappie]

I believe, from the tiny, minuscule amount I do know its more common in small dogs too? Could be totally wrong.

Have PM'ed Rappie :D

Have replied Scottsmum :)

[Scottsmum]

I believe, from the tiny, minuscule amount I do know its more common in small dogs too? Could be totally wrong.

Have PM'ed Rappie :D

Have replied Scottsmum :)

Thank you :)

[BarbedWire]

I’d be getting an appointment at Animal Referral Hospital Homebush. I can’t think of anything much worse than not having confidence in your vet.

Congestive heart failure or heart murmur --- is there a difference? I don’t know.

I remember a long time ago a vet telling me that most animals who live long enough (and must humans) will have some sort of murmur to some degree.

Hope your rellie can get good and sensible advice and management program.

A heart murmur is just a noise in the heart and it can sometimes be totally harmless and can go away all by itself. Othertimes it may be an indication of a leaky heart valve which can sometimes (not always) go on to become heart failure which is of course serious. I know because I had a heart murmur and I have been one of the unlucky ones who needed surgery to replace my mitral valve. People who have a leaky valve can mostly lead normal lives. They just need to take penicillin when they have dental work done because any germs from tooth decay once they enter the blood stream go straight to the heart valves where they can cause infection. I would imagine that for a dog with a murmur dental care would be very important. I would love to know what Rappie said.