Humping Posture In 10Week Old Rotti.

[Paul777]

'Don't let your dog interact with other people'.

I'm not a fan of that idea. I want my dogs to be friendly under normal circumstances. I want to be able to take them out in public or to the vet without them constantly being on alert and mistrusting everyone. Most dogs will naturally do what's needed to alert or stop an intruder if they are a part of the family unit...

T.

Deep down I know you're right & I can't disagree.

Funny thing is, there was 2 occasions when Ponti didn't like a certain person (friends of friends) Rather than greeting them, he'd 'dog their steps' from a distance of around 12 feet & not take his eyes off them, with no aggression, just vigilance.

The first time it occurred the visitor noticed before I did & said "I don't think that your dog likes me." As it turned out, the bloke was apparently a wife basher.

Our doggie mates are a lot more intuitive than many people.

I've got some thinking to do.

[Paul777]

The little dog had given him what for from the front door.

Good doggie, lol.

If someone gets in the house they can't be much help if they're outside.

Absolutely with you on that one Karen.

My puppy has slept tethered under/next to my bed, since I brought him home & he hasn't whinged even the once : )

Once he proves that he's capable of being trusted alone without tearing stuff up, Zagan will have free range of the house, just like his predecessor.

[persephone]

I think the theory is not to avoid people but don't let interactions happen where the dog starts to build a high value for other people. They want the dog neutral instead.

Exactly .

As I understand it ,K9pro advises assigning a 'value' to everything - with the owner/handler and treats/praise being the HIGHEST value ..

So, when meeting new people ... the pup/dog knows they are there..is confident that its owner/handler will provide everything it needs - is happy to be greeted by people , but , to anthropomorphise- shrugs and just considers them 'part of the furniture' ..nothing exciting or worth bouncing around for ...and is in constant communication with its owner/handler

[moosmum]

Yup.

My guys are encouraged to love children, and to welcome guests and attention from people.

I am well aware that they have a very strong protection drive that comes naturaly. My job is to see its never misplaced or over done and final judgments are mine to make. The dogs learn responsibility to their own freedom of action. There are social rules.

The dogs listen and watch. An invite to enter has a different response to an uninvited entry, another to a person who remains out while I talk to them, or who ignores an instruction. Its important to me and my dogs that they recognize and accept the social rules if they are going to do their jobs in a safe and reliable way. They can't do it at all if they are kept away from people.

They couldn't learn to recognize and accept the wide range of 'normal' human behaviors and types.

Edited December 23, 2016 by moosmum

[tdierikx]

'Don't let your dog interact with other people'.

I'm not a fan of that idea. I want my dogs to be friendly under normal circumstances. I want to be able to take them out in public or to the vet without them constantly being on alert and mistrusting everyone. Most dogs will naturally do what's needed to alert or stop an intruder if they are a part of the family unit...

T.

Deep down I know you're right & I can't disagree.

Funny thing is, there was 2 occasions when Ponti didn't like a certain person (friends of friends) Rather than greeting them, he'd 'dog their steps' from a distance of around 12 feet & not take his eyes off them, with no aggression, just vigilance.

The first time it occurred the visitor noticed before I did & said "I don't think that your dog likes me." As it turned out, the bloke was apparently a wife basher.

Our doggie mates are a lot more intuitive than many people.

I've got some thinking to do.

I always trust my dogs' reactions to people I invite in... if the dog is leery of someone, there will always be a reason, and if that person was to do anything threatening, the dog will have them - even if I've invited that person in. I've not had to train any of my dogs for that sort of thing either.

T.

[persephone]

I always trust my dogs' reactions to people I invite in... if the dog is leery of someone, there will always be a reason, and if that person was to do anything threatening, the dog will have them - even if I've invited that person in. I've not had to train any of my dogs for that sort of thing either.<br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247);"><br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247);">T.

I always felt totally safe with my big boy, Kieran ..as he would put himself between me and either teenage males , or drunks . he was perfectly fine with any other people/kids ... and my Mitchell ..well he would certainly ensure there were no trespassers, or uninvited people invading my personal space .

He chose an assistant for me as well!! I interviewed several .. and the way he reacted to one person was the clincher :) Best choice ever!!

[Paul777]

Thanks everyone for explaining the SteveK9Pro thing properly to me.

I've been reading heaps, some of it conflicting, so I'm still sorting it all in my head (If I'm confused what hope does Zagan have? lol) You're advice is most appreciated.

"With the owner/handler & treats/praise being the HIGHEST value." Right. That not only makes sense but it's a nice balance that I can live with.

Happy & content Rotti's are friendly & sociable dogs. It's why I eventually went against the trainers advice & allowed Ponti to greet friends & family.

[Paul777]

Yup.

My guys are encouraged to love children, and to welcome guests and attention from people.

I am well aware that they have a very strong protection drive that comes naturaly. My job is to see its never misplaced or over done and final judgments are mine to make. The dogs learn responsibility to their own freedom of action. There are social rules.

The dogs listen and watch. An invite to enter has a different response to an uninvited entry, another to a person who remains out while I talk to them, or who ignores an instruction. Its important to me and my dogs that they recognize and accept the social rules if they are going to do their jobs in a safe and reliable way. They can't do it at all if they are kept away from people.

They couldn't learn to recognize and accept the wide range of 'normal' human behaviors and types.

Yes, it's important to me that he gets some positive interaction with kids from as early as possible. I've already arranged for the neighbours grand-kids to meet with Zagan once he's had his final puppy vaccination in a weeks time.

SteveK9Pro suggests to take pups out to expose them to everything from 8 weeks old but I didn't want to take the risk (regularly hear of parvo virus outbreaks in the Hawkesbury area)so up until now, his outings have been limited to short car trips (not a natural in the car like my other dogs)

When I chose Ponti all those years ago, it was between him & another 18 month old Rotti who apparently disliked kids. Ponti adored little kids & was the reason why I chose him.

I absolutely understand that dogs like Rottis are protective by nature, bless them.

It's been my observation over the years, that dogs tend to be a little more protective of their female owners/handlers, especially when around unknown men, than their male owners.

Due to the fact that my then OH ignored my advice & formed no real bond with Ponti, I had a chat with him when I left for night-shift.

While saying good-night, I looked him in the eye & said "Look after Marcia*. Good boy, look after Marcia." He looked at me quizzically, tilting his head as dogs do, then looked in her direction, then back to me. I told him 'good boy' & repeated "look after Marcia". He looked at her, looked at me & vocalised what I took to mean 'Got it. For you mate, not a problem.'

A few weeks later, OH said "What have you done to that dog?" (yep, she was without a clue) Apparently, from that night on, Ponti would not allow male visitors into the house after dark when I wasn't home, lol.

Good boy Ponti.

Protection training done properly, builds a dogs confidence. Not that a dog needs advanced training to be confident, but it certainly doesn't hurt.

*not real name.

[Paul777]

Again, thanks for all your advice everyone.

I've decided to contact SteveK9Pro & see what sort of plan he'd have in mind. Hope it's not too expensive.

Steve advises that dogs that haven't been boarded for weekends before 18 month old, can have issues if boarding is required after that age.

I'd have never thought of that.

What's my fellow DOLers experience with this?

[Paul777]

Sitting out in the early morning sun, still a bit groggy from sleep, Zagan sunk his sharp little teeth into my arm in a fit of over excitement, 'mistaking' my flesh for the branch he was destroying.

I'm not at my best first thing in the morning.

Rather than ranting 'No!' everytime he bites, I cry out 'Oww' & give him a toy to chomp on. When I cry 'Oww' he usually goes much gentler & when it's a loud OWW!!! because it hurt, he'll 'lick better', lol. He's so cute.

This morning though, I was so grumpy & nearly snapped but I was interrupted by an image that reminded me of just how patient, gentle & tolerant my beautiful Ponti was with little kids, especially when my son was a toddler. In my minds eye I saw the photo that I've got of my then 2.5yo son holding onto Pontis collar, with a big grin, while Ponti just sat calmly, barely batting an eyelid.

It's like he gave kids a free pass.

It reminded me off an earlier comment; "He's just a baby."

Like many pups, Zagan is quite 'mouthy', if that's the right word. He has plenty of chew toys with different textures/materials, like rope toys, rubber balls, soft plastics, a soft toy puppy that he beats the daylights out off, & his favourite, dried pigs ears. I also give him boxes to demolish.

Diversion & crying 'Oww' & whimpering sounds (I've become quite the actor, lol) works the majority of the time.

On the rare occasion that it doesn't when he's over excited, I ignore him.

My question is this; how long do pups go through this biting stage? Until they finish teething?

[persephone]

My question is this; how long do pups go through this biting stage? Until they finish teething?

Until they learn not to.

teething starts at around 4/5/6 mths .

The nipping/biting currently is just how pups are . it is NOT mistaking your flesh for anything ;) Human babies use fingers/hands, and mouth/gums to get the textures and properties of the world around them, and to interact . Pups don't have fingers ;)

Have a read here ..

CLICK

excerpt ..speaking of a bitch with puppies ...

She doesn't carry out these behaviours in anger. For example if a pup is biting her nipple to hard when feeding, the mother may give the pup a quick nip. She definitely doesn't walk away saying "ouch", or offer an alternative object to bite on, or remove the pup for time out.

[Paul777]

Persephone, I'm starting to sound like the parent of a delinquent child who swears they're an angel, aren't I? lol

It's because of my harsh training methods in my youth, that I guess I'm a bit sensitive to doing the wrong thing.

The first 2 times that he chomped on my arm I was pulling out clumps of grass. Shaking the dirt from the roots excites Zagan & I guess I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. But his sideways look at me each & every time would prove you correct.

Thanks for the link, it's a good one & what I needed to hear. Although it doesn't give exact methods (preferring an inexperienced owner to be shown correctly by a trainer) I certainly get the message.

Several times in the first week or so when he was going berserk, I held him down with my forearm until he relaxed - Held his scruff of the neck with thumb & forefingers & gave it a shake while giving him the growly voice & stare down (it really is funny watching him decide if he should back down) - And when the little terror does something really dangerous like try to grab an electrical cord or grabbing at my pants leg, which will either send me flying or tread on him, I use my angry growl & stare him down.

All 3 have worked so far. Are these techniques the sort of thing to which the link refers?

[moosmum]

Yup.

My guys are encouraged to love children, and to welcome guests and attention from people.

I am well aware that they have a very strong protection drive that comes naturaly. My job is to see its never misplaced or over done and final judgments are mine to make. The dogs learn responsibility to their own freedom of action. There are social rules.

The dogs listen and watch. An invite to enter has a different response to an uninvited entry, another to a person who remains out while I talk to them, or who ignores an instruction. Its important to me and my dogs that they recognize and accept the social rules if they are going to do their jobs in a safe and reliable way. They can't do it at all if they are kept away from people.

They couldn't learn to recognize and accept the wide range of 'normal' human behaviors and types.

I absolutely understand that dogs like Rottis are protective by nature, bless them.

It's been my observation over the years, that dogs tend to be a little more protective of their female owners/handlers, especially when around unknown men, than their male owners.

I would have to agree with that. In our case, I'm also the trainer and one with the bond. O.H loves the dogs, but doesn't work at a relationship.

My dogs have shown they will defend O.H as well, but if theres no detectable threat, I'm the one they watch against it. And kids.

We have noticed that we have to control ourselves much more too. Our feelings towards people can affect the dogs reactions if we allow 'feels' when its not called for. Even if we are careful not to display them. Heightens suspicion?

Our dogs are friendly towards all invited guests, but when O.H had resentment to one for things said behind his back, THAT was the one person my dog chose to block with a warning when he got too close to me, too fast for her liking.

Edited December 28, 2016 by moosmum

[tdierikx]

I find that an "uuuhhhh" in a low growly tone works rather efficiently on most dogs and delinquent pups... *grin*

"Leave it" is also a fave of mine when I want my own dogs to spit out whatever is in their mouths - be it a toy, ball, bird, my arm, etc... funnily enough it's also worked on a few boarding dogs at work when they've been turds trying to eat the water when I'm hosing their kennels - and the buggers have a whole exercise yard to run about in, but decide that playing with the hose is more fun... grrr! Could be the growly tone I've used too, but they get the idea pretty quickly.

I've also found that most dogs are more protective of females and children over the males in the family... male dogs in particular. Most of my females have been pretty protective of everyone in the family equally, but the males more protective of female family members. Personally, ifI was going to get a dog for protection, I'd get a female every time... they don't call them bitches for nothing... hehe!

T.

[Paul777]

I've tried to save the growl for when he's doing something dangerous for fear that, if overused, it'll just be something to ignore because he usually does those things when having a puppy fit of excess energy.

At the moment the flying foxes are feasting on the ripe palm seeds in my neighbours yard, eat them while in my gum trees & drop the seed in my yard.

"Leave it" usually works but Zagan often thinks it's a game. He'll watch me clearing up the seeds after his breakfast, wait until I'm watching, grab one & take off for a game of 'catch me if you can', the little terror.

Thanks for sharing your experience T.

The dog trainers where I bought my 18 month old Rotti many years ago, would only train males & I've always wondered why. I've known many "bitches" who are excellent protectors of family & especially kids.

[persephone]

A growl ...Hmmm mum dog uses a growl for many things ;) I use a deep , interruptive "UH" ..or ,also an interrupter "excuse me !"-

Early on, I get pups to understand YUCKY !! .. Said loudly and gruffly when a very young pup grabs something often means they will drop it then & there ..so then there's lots of praise ..and a treat ... of course , other words would probably do the same :) I tend to not use conventional 'dog training' words at all if I can get away with it ...

Also, the BEST trick .. "swap" ..or "gimme". Some years ago I decided I was beyond chasing pups to get something back ... the swap or gimme game means they end up happily swapping what they have , for something I have ..usually something yummy ;)

I also sometimes use "later" ..if I take something from them (like a bone when there are several racing around together) I will put it up high , and say "later" ..there's no looking for the object ... or trying to get it down .. IF you keep the promise ! (if not the actual thing ..a treat will do )

[tdierikx]

I've tried to save the growl for when he's doing something dangerous for fear that, if overused, it'll just be something to ignore because he usually does those things when having a puppy fit of excess energy.

At the moment the flying foxes are feasting on the ripe palm seeds in my neighbours yard, eat them while in my gum trees & drop the seed in my yard.

"Leave it" usually works but Zagan often thinks it's a game. He'll watch me clearing up the seeds after his breakfast, wait until I'm watching, grab one & take off for a game of 'catch me if you can', the little terror.

Thanks for sharing your experience T.

The dog trainers where I bought my 18 month old Rotti many years ago, would only train males & I've always wondered why. I've known many "bitches" who are excellent protectors of family & especially kids.

Time for training some recall methinks... lol! Simple move for when he thinks he has something you will chase him for is to squat down and call him to you in a fun voice, arms wide as if he's going to get the biggest cuddle for coming to you... then swap the "bad toy" for one that's more appropriate and let him play with that for a while.

As for training only males for protection work... beats me... I reckon females would be so much better at it... *grin*

The place I work, a majority of their patrol/protection dogs are male, but they do have a few equally huge and imposing females working too... and they are definitely scarier than any of the males when they get into "the zone"...

T.

[Paul777]

Thanks Persephone

Yes, I use 'yucky' for disgusting stuff - I have a problem with cats using my garden as a toilet & Zagan has a thing for cat poo! He tends to hold it in his mouth for some reason - when he goes sniffing around the usual cat poo spot it's obvious that he knows he's not supposed to.

Hahaha, I either cough or say "excuse me?" in an incredulous voice when pup is contemplating doing something that he shouldn't (it's so obvious sometimes when he's considering 'should I?' lol) I've done it with all of my dogs.

Not using "dog training words"; our voice & our body language really does convey a large part of the message. They read us a lot better than many give them credit.

"swap/gimme", what an excellent idea. I'll have to remember to keep some kibble with me when outside (works brilliantly for 'come' & 'sit' training so far) or a favourite toy for that purpose.

"mum dog uses a growl for many things" Indeed she does. Hmmm :)

[persephone]

For a SWAP ..the exchange item has to be special at first ;) Lamb puffs work a treat! So do goodo's ...

[Simply Grand]

For a SWAP ..the exchange item has to be special at first ;) Lamb puffs work a treat! So do goodo's ...

Or cheese, anything extra yummy and with a strong-ish smell. And to start with hold the extra yummy swap item at pup's nose when he has something not toooo exciting, like a toy, wait til he opens his mouth and as you take the toy (or whatever) THEN say "give/swap" then shove the yummy treat in. Start in a low distraction environment, like inside the house and get it solid there before you attempt it out in "real world" situations.

Eventually you can condition the response so that when you say "give/swap" they automatically open their mouth so you can get in to grab even super high value things like dropped cooked bones or stuff they find out and about.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Simply Grand