I Know This Has Probably Been Done To Death...

[westiemum]

I doubt oodle owners really care about whether its called a labradoodle or if the cobberdog gets recognised as a breed or not – the breeders seem to care about that the most.

I also doubt that they're super interested in fancying up their dog by using a designer name, its just easy to use, its just slang and most people that ask about a dog understand what it is rather than explaining its "multiple generations of Labrador retriever and miniature poodle crosses with some spaniels in there too"

By all means hate them and consider them ugly... but I think they'll be popular whether purebred owners hate them or not, but they are less likely to be abused dogs if there was more of a push for reputable breeders. The breeder of my puppy actually encouraged us to sign the purebreddogs.org.au petition saying that she supported their values.

I'd disagree that the ridiculous names are just slang. "Mutt" or "mongrel" is slang, Cavoodabeagledor is the very deliberate marketing of an animal as something prestigious and exclusive, even though they're churned out in droves. Some people don't want to be seen buying "mutts" (hurrhurr) from dirty backyard breeders who call them by their breeds names (like "shitzoo cross moltese terriors") and only charge $250 each. They want their new dog gift-wrapped in shiny bullsh*t*, not picked out of a laundry basket, in someone's backyard.

*Like being hypo-allergenic and non-shedding and being born automatically great with kids, etc.

*like* Couldn't agree more. The complete BS which surrounds the marketing of these cross-breeds frustrates me to tears.

[Scottsmum]

I doubt oodle owners really care about whether its called a labradoodle or if the cobberdog gets recognised as a breed or not – the breeders seem to care about that the most.

I also doubt that they're super interested in fancying up their dog by using a designer name, its just easy to use, its just slang and most people that ask about a dog understand what it is rather than explaining its "multiple generations of Labrador retriever and miniature poodle crosses with some spaniels in there too"

By all means hate them and consider them ugly... but I think they'll be popular whether purebred owners hate them or not, but they are less likely to be abused dogs if there was more of a push for reputable breeders. The breeder of my puppy actually encouraged us to sign the purebreddogs.org.au petition saying that she supported their values.

I'd disagree that the ridiculous names are just slang. "Mutt" or "mongrel" is slang, Cavoodabeagledor is the very deliberate marketing of an animal as something prestigious and exclusive, even though they're churned out in droves. Some people don't want to be seen buying "mutts" (hurrhurr) from dirty backyard breeders who call them by their breeds names (like "shitzoo cross moltese terriors") and only charge $250 each. They want their new dog gift-wrapped in shiny bullsh*t*, not picked out of a laundry basket, in someone's backyard.

*Like being hypo-allergenic and non-shedding and being born automatically great with kids, etc.

*like* Couldn't agree more. The complete BS which surrounds the marketing of these cross-breeds frustrates me to tears.

This.

To the point where i usually get my hackles up if someone tells me tgey have an "oodly-noodly" but im cool if yhey have an XXX cross ...

[denali]

I work with dogs professionally - as a dog groomer and doggy daycare owner- So see my fair share of these dogs.

Recently, I have seen a bigger swing towards purebred dogs in my area. Vizslas, Japanese spitz, schnauzers, red setters, daschunds, pugs and frenchies of course etc. But the oodles are definitely still very trendy. And this is where most of it started- I think In my area in particular the oodles became a bit of a status symbol. As well as being "completely hypoallergenic", healthy because of "hybrid vigour", available immediately from some pet store or online 'breeder' and practically magical creatures who essentially just have a well marketed sales pitch behind them.

My favourite crosses seem to be the standard poodle x golden retriever and cavalier x poodles as they seem to produce the more attractive, calm yet social ones. As many of the others are more often than not in my experience a bit neurotic. Though of course there are exceptions. Most of those I see, do still shed! Most of them, have health issues and no "hybrid vigour"

I'm not against cross breeding BUT I'm against the way that almost all of these dogs are bred. Eg. No health testing, no regard for the parents conformation, breeding for colour, coat or size. And am definitely against their price tags.

What baffled me more was the day I overheard someone proudly saying they will be getting a cavalier x cocker pup. WTH is the purpose of that cross?! I bit my tongue there.

My friends always come to me about dogs- so I have successfully educated and steered 3 families towards well bred purebred dogs now ????

[westiemum]

I should also add that the only way I'd get a mixed breed is through rescue, where the dog has been vetted and the temperament is known.

Every time I hear of someone getting an oodle, I think: ARRRRGGHHH!! And when I show them a list of breeds that are low shedding, they're like oh, I didn't know.

When I meet one of these pups, I can see the attraction. They are cute. They are calm. They have all grown up to be wonderful dogs.

The price people pay, astounds me. You paid $4000 for that???? You know you could have paid a lot less for a dog that has been bred the same way for DECADES, but it falls on deaf ears.

While people keep buying these dogs and they all seem to be, through a photo, but 'the breeder is really nice' and inside I think: ARRRRGGHHH of course they are! They want you to pay the deposit and sell their pups.

And in all fairness, the people where they are getting the pups from, are doing things I agree with. Offering lifelong support, breeding cross to cross instead of poodle to lab, desexing the pups, offering to take the pup back for ANY reason, at ANY stage of life. Using only healthy stock and providing paperwork of hip, elbow and other tests done to prove their pups are sound.

so there does seem to be people out there who are trying to do the right thing.

I think we have to face it, these dogs are here to stay.

I also know a lot about puppy farms. When I was at uni, I did a paper on them and how they are raised.

Thankfully, there seems to be a growing trend for people going the other way.

Good post pooch mad. And as I said years ago, the jeanie is out of the bottle and these cross-breeds are here to stay. What I continue to object to is the false marketing, lies and industry of mass-breeding misery that has grown up around these dogs and the fact they often end up in the pound. I know... I've said it before and in Mac's memory and for Andy I'll continue saying it.

I think there are parts of Aus that are starting to deal with the puppy farm problem - but not here. And the so called division between so called responsible cross breeders and puppy farmersis not as clear cut as people would imagine - as they each cross-market each other (marketing 101).

And until these so called responsible cross-breeders, properly differentiate themselves from the puppy farmers, stop using cutesy-pie marketing terms and preying on a gullible public, call the dog what it is (a so and so cross-breed), stop making claims that are clearly false about their dogs, demonstrate proper ethical breeding practices consistently and price fairly I can't support them. The thing to never forget is they are competition to registered pure breeders who do the right thing - and they compete using marketing falsehoods. If this was any other 'product' (or service) they would be in front of the ACCC. And dogs, (a 10 -15 year commitment) are too important to let that stand by unchallenged. They are not toothbrushes to be marketed and sold as the latest you beaut version (non-shedding, hypoallergenic or colour... rolley eyes here). Next they'll be claiming they pick up their own poo! (Sorry - exaggeration but you get my drift) And because of their pricing. (7k for a cross-breed!? You have to be kidding!) and false marketing, as you point out it makes people go hunting for cheap badly bred puppy farm cross-breeds and confused cross-marketing (deliberate or not) perpetuates the cycle.

On Andy and Mac's behalf it makes me so angry and I'll continue saying so.

Its just not that simple.

Edited December 9, 2016 by westiemum

[Maddy]

I work with dogs professionally - as a dog groomer and doggy daycare owner- So see my fair share of these dogs.

Recently, I have seen a bigger swing towards purebred dogs in my area. Vizslas, Japanese spitz, schnauzers, red setters, daschunds, pugs and frenchies of course etc. But the oodles are definitely still very trendy. And this is where most of it started- I think In my area in particular the oodles became a bit of a status symbol. As well as being "completely hypoallergenic", healthy because of "hybrid vigour", available immediately from some pet store or online 'breeder' and practically magical creatures who essentially just have a well marketed sales pitch behind them.

My favourite crosses seem to be the standard poodle x golden retriever and cavalier x poodles as they seem to produce the more attractive, calm yet social ones. As many of the others are more often than not in my experience a bit neurotic. Though of course there are exceptions. Most of those I see, do still shed! Most of them, have health issues and no "hybrid vigour"

I'm not against cross breeding BUT I'm against the way that almost all of these dogs are bred. Eg. No health testing, no regard for the parents conformation, breeding for colour, coat or size. And am definitely against their price tags.

What baffled me more was the day I overheard someone proudly saying they will be getting a cavalier x cocker pup. WTH is the purpose of that cross?! I bit my tongue there.

My friends always come to me about dogs- so I have successfully educated and steered 3 families towards well bred purebred dogs now ????

For more.. spaniel? I know it seems like one purebred spaniel is 100% spaniel but think about it.. 1 spaniel + 1 spaniel = 2 spaniel = 200% spaniel. (Bad spaniel maths, nobody should take this as fact. Also, the more I type "spaniel", the less it seems like an actual word.)

[Sheridan]

I would like to know were these ethical breeders of oodles get their breeding stock from to start with.

Either a purebred breeder who is complicit or who is lied to. I know one of the latter, someone who rang me in great distress on finding out about their dog.

[Scrappi&Monty]

I work with dogs professionally - as a dog groomer and doggy daycare owner- So see my fair share of these dogs.

Recently, I have seen a bigger swing towards purebred dogs in my area. Vizslas, Japanese spitz, schnauzers, red setters, daschunds, pugs and frenchies of course etc. But the oodles are definitely still very trendy. And this is where most of it started- I think In my area in particular the oodles became a bit of a status symbol. As well as being "completely hypoallergenic", healthy because of "hybrid vigour", available immediately from some pet store or online 'breeder' and practically magical creatures who essentially just have a well marketed sales pitch behind them.

My favourite crosses seem to be the standard poodle x golden retriever and cavalier x poodles as they seem to produce the more attractive, calm yet social ones. As many of the others are more often than not in my experience a bit neurotic. Though of course there are exceptions. Most of those I see, do still shed! Most of them, have health issues and no "hybrid vigour"

I'm not against cross breeding BUT I'm against the way that almost all of these dogs are bred. Eg. No health testing, no regard for the parents conformation, breeding for colour, coat or size. And am definitely against their price tags.

What baffled me more was the day I overheard someone proudly saying they will be getting a cavalier x cocker pup. WTH is the purpose of that cross?! I bit my tongue there.

My friends always come to me about dogs- so I have successfully educated and steered 3 families towards well bred purebred dogs now ????

For more.. spaniel? I know it seems like one purebred spaniel is 100% spaniel but think about it.. 1 spaniel + 1 spaniel = 2 spaniel = 200% spaniel. (Bad spaniel maths, nobody should take this as fact. Also, the more I type "spaniel", the less it seems like an actual word.)

Hahaha not sure if that's how spaniel maths works...

[Bushriver]

Don't forget there are many "purebred" breeders that are not doing the right thing. Just because their dogs have papers doesn't mean they were raised well. I'm all for purebreds, but if registered breeders can't be monitored there is very little chance of cross bred breeders being regulated. We can only hope that puppy buyers are encouraged to do more research and look into where their pup is coming from, whatever the breed or cross breed they decide on.

[westiemum]

I take your point Bushriver, but while purebred registered breeders aren't regulated either, at least the many are registered (unlike cross-breeders and BYBers) , many of them show to improve the breed and they adhere to a code of ethics and don't set up mass breeding facilities to mislead and pander to a gullible public and make a quick buck at the expense of the breeding dogs they use. While of course there are not so good purebreed breeders around, at least the majority put dog welfare and breed betterment first and at least the public can view parents and research the breeder in a transparent way - which can't be said for these cross-breed puppy farmers.

The puppy farm I used to 'visit' and where my two male westies came from would not give out its address before a visit and operated with the utmost secrecy. You had to travel two hours before being given a map at a servo in the local town for final directions. And the place was scary, down a long road, hidden from main view. And the breeders there thought it was terribly funny that their breeding dogs never set foot on grass and proudly showed run after run of unsocialised dogs in concrete cages. Hundreds of them. You really have to visit these places to know what 'hell on earth' looks like.

[mackiemad]

No one is advocating for puppy farms here westiemum - we all back you in your disgust. Here in Vic all the worst ones are well known and totally legal because they pay their domestic animal business licence to compliant councils (which is why the proposed legislation simply wouldn't help). The system needs to change, everyone agrees on that (except the owners of said operations).

The reality is that there are nowadays plenty of people who breed oodles or fashionable cross breds who aren't puppy farms and who love their animals. They don't have issues with demand and that's what needs to be addressed or understood.

[westiemum]

Thanks Mackiemad - maybe I'm not explaining myself too well. We all agree on the puppy issue of puppy farms (I hope).

The point I'm trying to make that some here seem to be missing is that the distinction between puppy farmers and those 'who love their animals' is a false one from a marketing to the general public perspective. The so called responsible cross-breeders who charge insane prices for a cross breed on the back of cutesy pie marketing terms (cavoodle, cobberdog etc) to a gullible public, indirectly cross-market the puppy farms. The general public who can't or won't pay their insane prices and don't know any better go looking elsewhere - bingo - they find cheaper easily available crossbreeds online or at petshops. In the mind of the gullible public they are all one and the same thing as FB demonstrates time and time again - simply breeders of designers dogs. The only differential is the price and availability.

So until these 'responsible' cross-breeders have an ANKC recognised breed, are subject to registration, use the breed term exclusively and properly to describe their dogs (breed to a breed standard) or use the proper cross-breed term in the meantime and market their dogs truly to the public with correct information and therefore distinguish themselves from the puppy farmers I won't support them. Terms like cobberdog and cavoodle (deliberately?) mislead the public into thinking its a 'registered pure breed' when its not.

I have no doubt the day will come when a stable one of these cross-breeds will be ANKC recognised and named - and that will be a very good thing as I said years ago - but its not today. And in the meantime me and many others will continue to pick up the pieces of puppy farm rescues like Mac and Andy...

(Flame suit on).

[Podengo]

I've not read the rest of the thread, just wanted to comment that I visited Sydney last week and did a lot of walking (we stayed in Paddington) and I was shocked with the number of poodle mixes I saw! So crazy! 90% of the dogs I saw were poodle mixes of some kind.

I've not really had a lot to do with oodles, I know a couple of spaniel/poodle mixes, they're a bit dopey and one is very dog aggressive... and we used to see a gigantic lab/poodle cross at work who was getting chemo at age 2 - he was a LOVELY natured dog, but he shed soooooooo much - we'd all joke about the expensive non-shedding dog after working with him and being covered in blonde pubes :laugh:

[chaostheory]

I work with dogs professionally - as a dog groomer and doggy daycare owner- So see my fair share of these dogs.

Recently, I have seen a bigger swing towards purebred dogs in my area. Vizslas, Japanese spitz, schnauzers, red setters, daschunds, pugs and frenchies of course etc. But the oodles are definitely still very trendy. And this is where most of it started- I think In my area in particular the oodles became a bit of a status symbol. As well as being "completely hypoallergenic", healthy because of "hybrid vigour", available immediately from some pet store or online 'breeder' and practically magical creatures who essentially just have a well marketed sales pitch behind them.

My favourite crosses seem to be the standard poodle x golden retriever and cavalier x poodles as they seem to produce the more attractive, calm yet social ones. As many of the others are more often than not in my experience a bit neurotic. Though of course there are exceptions. Most of those I see, do still shed! Most of them, have health issues and no "hybrid vigour"

I'm not against cross breeding BUT I'm against the way that almost all of these dogs are bred. Eg. No health testing, no regard for the parents conformation, breeding for colour, coat or size. And am definitely against their price tags.

What baffled me more was the day I overheard someone proudly saying they will be getting a cavalier x cocker pup. WTH is the purpose of that cross?! I bit my tongue there.

My friends always come to me about dogs- so I have successfully educated and steered 3 families towards well bred purebred dogs now ????

I can only speak from my own experience but I truly think part of the reason why people buy these crosses (cav crosses in particular) is that the health problems are scary, really scary! Especially in regards to cavaliers. I came so close to getting a cavalier but some reading around on the web and a particular documentary was enough to scare me off. I looked briefly at a cav cross but ultimately decided that the places breeding them were unethical and ended up more confused than ever. I think it's unfair to assume that everyone buying a x is doing it for street cred, I think many of them believe they are doing the right thing.

I love cavs my sister has two, and they are the sweetest most beautiful dogs, but honestly I don't think it's a surprise that people come across heart problems, shorter life span, syringo, etc etc in their google search.. and come to the conclusion that maybe a cross would be a safer option..

[Steve]

Thanks Mackiemad - maybe I'm not explaining myself too well. We all agree on the puppy issue of puppy farms (I hope).

The point I'm trying to make that some here seem to be missing is that the distinction between puppy farmers and those 'who love their animals' is a false one from a marketing to the general public perspective. The so called responsible cross-breeders who charge insane prices for a cross breed on the back of cutesy pie marketing terms (cavoodle, cobberdog etc) to a gullible public, indirectly cross-market the puppy farms. The general public who can't or won't pay their insane prices and don't know any better go looking elsewhere - bingo - they find cheaper easily available crossbreeds online or at petshops. In the mind of the gullible public they are all one and the same thing as FB demonstrates time and time again - simply breeders of designers dogs. The only differential is the price and availability.

So until these 'responsible' cross-breeders have an ANKC recognised breed, are subject to registration, use the breed term exclusively and properly to describe their dogs (breed to a breed standard) or use the proper cross-breed term in the meantime and market their dogs truly to the public with correct information and therefore distinguish themselves from the puppy farmers I won't support them. Terms like cobberdog and cavoodle (deliberately?) mislead the public into thinking its a 'registered pure breed' when its not.

I have no doubt the day will come when a stable one of these cross-breeds will be ANKC recognised and named - and that will be a very good thing as I said years ago - but its not today. And in the meantime me and many others will continue to pick up the pieces of puppy farm rescues like Mac and Andy...

(Flame suit on).

The Cobberdog breeders don't have huge prices on their pet puppies and cross bred puppies such as labradoodles are selling for much more than theirs are even in pet shops and its a bit rich to be talking about expensive cross breeds when you have some pure breeds from registered breeders selling at 7 thousand dollars plus each on limited register.

Every Cobberdog bred here and in any other country is subject to registration and there has never been a pet Cobberdog puppy sold except in Norway where desexing is illegal that has gone out entire and only MDBA members can buy a breeding dog - so no one other than MDBA members can breed them. If we are going to discuss what may push people toward puppy farmers and pet shops etc then its difficult to go past the fact that it's virtually impossible to buy a registered purebred puppy of some breeds due to lack of supply but also because some of the breeders are horrible to deal with. Some grown ups want to make their own choices and simply want to buy a dog without having to go through screening and questioning and having someone else decide whether they will make suitable owners. Just because a minority of people think purebreds are preferable it doesn't mean those who don't automatically become idiots and incapable of making an educated choice that they feel suits their family and lifestyle. Its O.K. to take dogs into your home that come through a rescue that are unpredictable but not to bring a puppy in that you like the look of?

Considering this is almost the year 2017 and the ANKC isn't the only Canine registry that has world wide affiliations maybe into the future some breeds who will become recognised will prefer NOT to be under the ANKC umbrella.

[mowgliandme]

I think there is always going to be a divide here, on this forum in particular because it is a purebred dogs forum.

However I think the main reason people promote purebred dogs is because of good breeders who know what they are doing. The ones with health guarantees, pedigrees, lifetime of breeder support, breeders that socialise the puppies well and know what they are doing: breeding for health, purpose, temperament and conformation. This is the main reason I advocate people stay away from pet shops and puppy farms and most cross breed breeders.

But having said all that, there is not enough of these well bred puppies for the demand (either pure bred or cross bred) so there is going to be people who exploit it and keep dogs in horrible conditions, and breed unsocialised, unhealthy dogs etc until people are made aware of the differences...

In terms of marketing to the general public:

I think there should be more of a push for good breeders, breeders who do things like puppy culture, there is an amazing thread of a breeder doing everything wonderfully with Rottweilers! :)

I don’t think its fair to blame a good breeder for the obvious spike in popularity of Rottys after her amazing puppies go out to represent them in the world. If crappy back yard breeders or puppy farms start breeding rottys because of these beautiful examples we definitely wouldn’t blame the breed or the breeder, like we are doing with oodles.

Edited December 13, 2016 by mowgliandme

[Rascalmyshadow]

Thanks Mackiemad - maybe I'm not explaining myself too well. We all agree on the puppy issue of puppy farms (I hope).

The point I'm trying to make that some here seem to be missing is that the distinction between puppy farmers and those 'who love their animals' is a false one from a marketing to the general public perspective. The so called responsible cross-breeders who charge insane prices for a cross breed on the back of cutesy pie marketing terms (cavoodle, cobberdog etc) to a gullible public, indirectly cross-market the puppy farms. The general public who can't or won't pay their insane prices and don't know any better go looking elsewhere - bingo - they find cheaper easily available crossbreeds online or at petshops. In the mind of the gullible public they are all one and the same thing as FB demonstrates time and time again - simply breeders of designers dogs. The only differential is the price and availability.

So until these 'responsible' cross-breeders have an ANKC recognised breed, are subject to registration, use the breed term exclusively and properly to describe their dogs (breed to a breed standard) or use the proper cross-breed term in the meantime and market their dogs truly to the public with correct information and therefore distinguish themselves from the puppy farmers I won't support them. Terms like cobberdog and cavoodle (deliberately?) mislead the public into thinking its a 'registered pure breed' when its not.

I have no doubt the day will come when a stable one of these cross-breeds will be ANKC recognised and named - and that will be a very good thing as I said years ago - but its not today. And in the meantime me and many others will continue to pick up the pieces of puppy farm rescues like Mac and Andy...

(Flame suit on).

The Cobberdog breeders don't have huge prices on their pet puppies and cross bred puppies such as labradoodles are selling for much more than theirs are even in pet shops and its a bit rich to be talking about expensive cross breeds when you have some pure breeds from registered breeders selling at 7 thousand dollars plus each on limited register.

Every Cobberdog bred here and in any other country is subject to registration and there has never been a pet Cobberdog puppy sold except in Norway where desexing is illegal that has gone out entire and only MDBA members can buy a breeding dog - so no one other than MDBA members can breed them. If we are going to discuss what may push people toward puppy farmers and pet shops etc then its difficult to go past the fact that it's virtually impossible to buy a registered purebred puppy of some breeds due to lack of supply but also because some of the breeders are horrible to deal with. Some grown ups want to make their own choices and simply want to buy a dog without having to go through screening and questioning and having someone else decide whether they will make suitable owners. Just because a minority of people think purebreds are preferable it doesn't mean those who don't automatically become idiots and incapable of making an educated choice that they feel suits their family and lifestyle. Its O.K. to take dogs into your home that come through a rescue that are unpredictable but not to bring a puppy in that you like the look of?

Considering this is almost the year 2017 and the ANKC isn't the only Canine registry that has world wide affiliations maybe into the future some breeds who will become recognised will prefer NOT to be under the ANKC umbrella.

This: I don't know anything about Cobberdogs so i cant comment but the rest of the entire post is spot on.

We have been in the situation 5 years ago where I ended up giving up on registered breeders when we were looking for a Pomeranian pup, I contacted many and either they never replied or the ones that did were very unfriendly and quickly told me we could not have a pup because we had children, even offered them to meet my kids and do a home check, in the end we bought a pom x long haired chi pup (for 1/3 of the price) from a private home, he's turned out a wonderful dog and the whole process was a good experience.

If I was completely new to dogs I would have probably never bought another dog from a registered breeder.

Yes we do have two purebreds from registered breeders so I'm not against them but I see why people look elsewhere.

[westiemum]

Steve happy to defer on some points and disagree on others. I respectfully ask that you read my posts properly. Apologies for the long post.

While I don't like these cross breeds, the unintended consequences of cross-marketing of cross breeds and the industry of deception that surrounds them, I have said that I recognise they are here to stay and suggested years ago before registration that registration was a better way to go - and got howled down. The registration of the cobberdog, while welcome, does not deal with the issue of the rampant cross-breeding and false marketing of cross-breeds to the general public. But yes its a step in the right direction and may eventually help marginalise the mass cross-breeders - which will be a good thing.

Just because a minority of people think purebreds are preferable it doesn't mean those who don't automatically become idiots and incapable of making an educated choice that they feel suits their family and lifestyle

I agree. However the number of these dogs who are dumped because they do not live up to the claims of their breeder ('non-shedding' or size being the biggies - ie false marketing) would suggest that there are many people making uneducated cross-breed choices on the basis of false information.

And thats the major point of my post: false cross-breed marketing. FB and the newbie threads here show time and time again that the general public do not make the distinction between responsible cross-breeders and puppy farmers/irresponsible ones - in time they may, but not now. These cross-breeders simply come up with a marketing terms and false information to sell their puppies. Why do these cross-breeders come up with these cutesy marketing terms in the first place instead of describing them by their cross? The answer is to claim their dogs are something they are not and to mislead and falsely market them using false information (non-shedding, hypo-allergenic, kid friendly, 'family dogs' etc etc). What defines a 'family dog'? What type of 'family'? Its nothing but a marketing term. If this was any other industry or 'product', the ACCC would be very interested in their claims.

The fact that many cross-breed puppies are still sold through petshops and online as impulse buys and end up in pounds, compared with the numbers of purebreeds in pounds proves the point. At least most (not all) registered pure breeders and hopefully now most Cobberdog cross breeders will try and ensure their puppies go to thoughtful homes with truthful information.

You're right - some purebreeders are horrible and are a big part of the problem. On that we absolutely agree. There are a couple of registered purebreeders I know of who I steer well clear of and never recommend. They are truly nasty, take gate-keeping to a ridiculous degree and do everyone a grave disservice. But there are some fantastic ones as well - and thats where I send people who ask me. Horrible breeders are not restricted to purebreeders. The mass cross-breed puppy farmers I have dealt with have been cruel patronising money hungry lying b*st*rds, And most backyard cross-breeders are not much better. So IMO this is not about 'horrible breeders' who sadly exist everywhere. Its about a group of cross-breeders who falsely represent and market what they are selling to the general public.

Its O.K. to take dogs into your home that come through a rescue that are unpredictable but not to bring a puppy in that you like the look of?

Of course not - rescue is not infallible either - but the fostering system increases the chances of a good match as opposed to an uninformed response to false cross-breed marketing on looks or characteristics which the false marketing of these crossbreeds encourages.

The best protection the puppy buying public has is to buy from someone who loves the breed, knows the breed, breeds for betterment of the breed and socialises their puppies well - and that ain't a cross-breed puppy farmer. Yet as I keep saying the general public do not make that distinction between responsible or irresponsible cross-breeders or do their homework. If they did, most would not buy online or from petshops (and they would go out of business). How many DOLers have said 'I bought my cross-breed from a petshop/mass-breeder when I didn't know any better'?

I have no affiliation with the ANKC and would welcome proper registration under another affiliated body - not a problem - as long as there is some control somewhere.

Steve I know you have worked really hard on breed development and you are probably one of the biggest advocates of the cobberdog in Australia. And with guarding against unintended consequences such as false cross-marketing, this cross-breed probably has a bright future, eventually as a registered breed. And that's genuinely a good thing.

But IMO Cobberdog cross-breeds or registration as a purebreed are not a panacea to the problem of rampant cross-breeding and false cross-breed marketing to the general public. Not everyone who wants a cross breed will consider a cobberdog, wants a cobberdog or even know they exist - so they'll likely respond to false marketing of other crossbreeds and around the cycle will go again.

[westiemum]

This: I don't know anything about Cobberdogs so i cant comment but the rest of the entire post is spot on.

We have been in the situation 5 years ago where I ended up giving up on registered breeders when we were looking for a Pomeranian pup, I contacted many and either they never replied or the ones that did were very unfriendly and quickly told me we could not have a pup because we had children, even offered them to meet my kids and do a home check, in the end we bought a pom x long haired chi pup (for 1/3 of the price) from a private home, he's turned out a wonderful dog and the whole process was a good experience.

If I was completely new to dogs I would have probably never bought another dog from a registered breeder.

Yes we do have two purebreds from registered breeders so I'm not against them but I see why people look elsewhere.

.

Agreed RMS. I too many years ago talked to a puppy farmer about buying a dog from him. But as part of my research I found DOL and didn't buy. My dogs have always been older dogs from registered breeders or purebreed puppy farm rescues. But I've spoken with a number of registered purebreeders to help friends out when I couldn't source a rescue for them. And my experience was similar. If they only knew the damage they were doing by treating people so badly. But at the same time, I'm not going to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'. So despite that experience, I still believe in purebreeds and good registered purebreeders and will continue to support them, including the eventual registration of the cobberdog. I think companion dogs are too important not to.

[Steve]

Steve happy to defer on some points and disagree on others. I respectfully ask that you read my posts properly. Apologies for the long post.

While I don't like these cross breeds, the unintended consequences of cross-marketing of cross breeds and the industry of deception that surrounds them, I have said that I recognise they are here to stay and suggested years ago before registration that registration was a better way to go - and got howled down. The registration of the cobberdog, while welcome, does not deal with the issue of the rampant cross-breeding and false marketing of cross-breeds to the general public. But yes its a step in the right direction and may eventually help marginalise the mass cross-breeders - which will be a good thing.

Just because a minority of people think purebreds are preferable it doesn't mean those who don't automatically become idiots and incapable of making an educated choice that they feel suits their family and lifestyle

I agree. However the number of these dogs who are dumped because they do not live up to the claims of their breeder ('non-shedding' or size being the biggies - ie false marketing) would suggest that there are many people making uneducated cross-breed choices on the basis of false information.

And thats the major point of my post: false cross-breed marketing. FB and the newbie threads here show time and time again that the general public do not make the distinction between responsible cross-breeders and puppy farmers/irresponsible ones - in time they may, but not now. These cross-breeders simply come up with a marketing terms and false information to sell their puppies. Why do these cross-breeders come up with these cutesy marketing terms in the first place instead of describing them by their cross? The answer is to claim their dogs are something they are not and to mislead and falsely market them using false information (non-shedding, hypo-allergenic, kid friendly, 'family dogs' etc etc). What defines a 'family dog'? What type of 'family'? Its nothing but a marketing term. If this was any other industry or 'product', the ACCC would be very interested in their claims.

The fact that many cross-breed puppies are still sold through petshops and online as impulse buys and end up in pounds, compared with the numbers of purebreeds in pounds proves the point. At least most (not all) registered pure breeders and hopefully now most Cobberdog cross breeders will try and ensure their puppies go to thoughtful homes with truthful information.

You're right - some purebreeders are horrible and are a big part of the problem. On that we absolutely agree. There are a couple of registered purebreeders I know of who I steer well clear of and never recommend. They are truly nasty, take gate-keeping to a ridiculous degree and do everyone a grave disservice. But there are some fantastic ones as well - and thats where I send people who ask me. Horrible breeders are not restricted to purebreeders. The mass cross-breed puppy farmers I have dealt with have been cruel patronising money hungry lying b*st*rds, And most backyard cross-breeders are not much better. So IMO this is not about 'horrible breeders' who sadly exist everywhere. Its about a group of cross-breeders who falsely represent and market what they are selling to the general public.

Its O.K. to take dogs into your home that come through a rescue that are unpredictable but not to bring a puppy in that you like the look of?

Of course not - rescue is not infallible either - but the fostering system increases the chances of a good match as opposed to an uninformed response to false cross-breed marketing on looks or characteristics which the false marketing of these crossbreeds encourages.

The best protection the puppy buying public has is to buy from someone who loves the breed, knows the breed, breeds for betterment of the breed and socialises their puppies well - and that ain't a cross-breed puppy farmer. Yet as I keep saying the general public do not make that distinction between responsible or irresponsible cross-breeders or do their homework. If they did, most would not buy online or from petshops (and they would go out of business). How many DOLers have said 'I bought my cross-breed from a petshop/mass-breeder when I didn't know any better'?

I have no affiliation with the ANKC and would welcome proper registration under another affiliated body - not a problem - as long as there is some control somewhere.

Steve I know you have worked really hard on breed development and you are probably one of the biggest advocates of the cobberdog in Australia. And with guarding against unintended consequences such as false cross-marketing, this cross-breed probably has a bright future, eventually as a registered breed. And that's genuinely a good thing.

But IMO Cobberdog cross-breeds or registration as a purebreed are not a panacea to the problem of rampant cross-breeding and false cross-breed marketing to the general public. Not everyone who wants a cross breed will consider a cobberdog, wants a cobberdog or even know they exist - so they'll likely respond to false marketing of other crossbreeds and around the cycle will go again.

O.K. Firstly I see more staffy type and working dog type dogs in rescue that never get out the other side and into a new home than I see other cross breeds that have been purposely bred.

I also see pure breed rescue is flourishing. In my two breeds Beagle and Maremma there is a never ending supply of dogs for Beagle and Maremma rescue and there are hundreds of specific breed rescue groups all over the country.

Plus many purebreds are marketed as non shedding, less prone to causing allergies and child friendly. Cross bred breeders don't have a monopoly on that either. There are good and bad breeders in any group and it is just as difficult to find a registered purebred breeder who is doing it all right as it is to find a cross bred breeder who has it all covered. The marketing for purebred dogs tells us that they all health tested - well guess what ? Most registered breeders dont and whats more the anti marketing of purebred dogs tells us that many of them are actually selected for characteristics that cause their quality of life to be low quality and for them to suffer because of it. These days the breeders don't have to do much work on telling the general public the benefits of cross breds because the RSPCA and the AVA and the state universities are right out there about it.

Hit google and ask for non shedding dogs and its purebreds that come up - so is it possible to have a non shedding purebred but not a non shedding cross bred?

What Im trying to say is that grown up people make their decisions on purchasing anything based on their own variables and suggesting that every one should only want registered purebreds is equivalent to telling me that everyone should only want a rescue dog.

So when we see cross bred dogs advertised and people buying them they have as much right to determine that suits them better than what you would choose. The fact that there are choices is a good thing and people who won dogs which are not purebred or not registered with a kennel club as purebreds can still be fantastic owners and the dogs make great pets.Cross bred breeders don't have a monopoly on puppy farming and if there weren't so many people telling the world how great their cross bred puppies were people would stop buying them.

Both sides are capable of spreading crap about what they see as the best and real world but people buy dogs of any type because they are able to make their own choices - some will like purebreds others wont care if they are purebred or not. There is just as much argument - if not more that the marketing of purebreds and the pressure on breeders to only breed a litter or two a year and God forbid for the pet market has helped puppy farmers of both registered purebred breeders and cross bred breeders. Its supply and demand.

[moosmum]

Steve happy to defer on some points and disagree on others. I respectfully ask that you read my posts properly. Apologies for the long post.

While I don't like these cross breeds, the unintended consequences of cross-marketing of cross breeds and the industry of deception that surrounds them, I have said that I recognise they are here to stay and suggested years ago before registration that registration was a better way to go - and got howled down. The registration of the cobberdog, while welcome, does not deal with the issue of the rampant cross-breeding and false marketing of cross-breeds to the general public. But yes its a step in the right direction and may eventually help marginalise the mass cross-breeders - which will be a good thing.

Just because a minority of people think purebreds are preferable it doesn't mean those who don't automatically become idiots and incapable of making an educated choice that they feel suits their family and lifestyle

I agree. However the number of these dogs who are dumped because they do not live up to the claims of their breeder ('non-shedding' or size being the biggies - ie false marketing) would suggest that there are many people making uneducated cross-breed choices on the basis of false information.

And thats the major point of my post: false cross-breed marketing. FB and the newbie threads here show time and time again that the general public do not make the distinction between responsible cross-breeders and puppy farmers/irresponsible ones - in time they may, but not now. These cross-breeders simply come up with a marketing terms and false information to sell their puppies. Why do these cross-breeders come up with these cutesy marketing terms in the first place instead of describing them by their cross? The answer is to claim their dogs are something they are not and to mislead and falsely market them using false information (non-shedding, hypo-allergenic, kid friendly, 'family dogs' etc etc). What defines a 'family dog'? What type of 'family'? Its nothing but a marketing term. If this was any other industry or 'product', the ACCC would be very interested in their claims.

The fact that many cross-breed puppies are still sold through petshops and online as impulse buys and end up in pounds, compared with the numbers of purebreeds in pounds proves the point. At least most (not all) registered pure breeders and hopefully now most Cobberdog cross breeders will try and ensure their puppies go to thoughtful homes with truthful information.

You're right - some purebreeders are horrible and are a big part of the problem. On that we absolutely agree. There are a couple of registered purebreeders I know of who I steer well clear of and never recommend. They are truly nasty, take gate-keeping to a ridiculous degree and do everyone a grave disservice. But there are some fantastic ones as well - and thats where I send people who ask me. Horrible breeders are not restricted to purebreeders. The mass cross-breed puppy farmers I have dealt with have been cruel patronising money hungry lying b*st*rds, And most backyard cross-breeders are not much better. So IMO this is not about 'horrible breeders' who sadly exist everywhere. Its about a group of cross-breeders who falsely represent and market what they are selling to the general public.

Its O.K. to take dogs into your home that come through a rescue that are unpredictable but not to bring a puppy in that you like the look of?

Of course not - rescue is not infallible either - but the fostering system increases the chances of a good match as opposed to an uninformed response to false cross-breed marketing on looks or characteristics which the false marketing of these crossbreeds encourages.

The best protection the puppy buying public has is to buy from someone who loves the breed, knows the breed, breeds for betterment of the breed and socialises their puppies well - and that ain't a cross-breed puppy farmer. Yet as I keep saying the general public do not make that distinction between responsible or irresponsible cross-breeders or do their homework. If they did, most would not buy online or from petshops (and they would go out of business). How many DOLers have said 'I bought my cross-breed from a petshop/mass-breeder when I didn't know any better'?

I have no affiliation with the ANKC and would welcome proper registration under another affiliated body - not a problem - as long as there is some control somewhere.

Steve I know you have worked really hard on breed development and you are probably one of the biggest advocates of the cobberdog in Australia. And with guarding against unintended consequences such as false cross-marketing, this cross-breed probably has a bright future, eventually as a registered breed. And that's genuinely a good thing.

But IMO Cobberdog cross-breeds or registration as a purebreed are not a panacea to the problem of rampant cross-breeding and false cross-breed marketing to the general public. Not everyone who wants a cross breed will consider a cobberdog, wants a cobberdog or even know they exist - so they'll likely respond to false marketing of other crossbreeds and around the cycle will go again.

O.K. Firstly I see more staffy type and working dog type dogs in rescue that never get out the other side and into a new home than I see other cross breeds that have been purposely bred.

I also see pure breed rescue is flourishing. In my two breeds Beagle and Maremma there is a never ending supply of dogs for Beagle and Maremma rescue and there are hundreds of specific breed rescue groups all over the country.

Plus many purebreds are marketed as non shedding, less prone to causing allergies and child friendly. Cross bred breeders don't have a monopoly on that either. There are good and bad breeders in any group and it is just as difficult to find a registered purebred breeder who is doing it all right as it is to find a cross bred breeder who has it all covered. The marketing for purebred dogs tells us that they all health tested - well guess what ? Most registered breeders dont and whats more the anti marketing of purebred dogs tells us that many of them are actually selected for characteristics that cause their quality of life to be low quality and for them to suffer because of it. These days the breeders don't have to do much work on telling the general public the benefits of cross breds because the RSPCA and the AVA and the state universities are right out there about it.

Hit google and ask for non shedding dogs and its purebreds that come up - so is it possible to have a non shedding purebred but not a non shedding cross bred?

What Im trying to say is that grown up people make their decisions on purchasing anything based on their own variables and suggesting that every one should only want registered purebreds is equivalent to telling me that everyone should only want a rescue dog.

So when we see cross bred dogs advertised and people buying them they have as much right to determine that suits them better than what you would choose. The fact that there are choices is a good thing and people who won dogs which are not purebred or not registered with a kennel club as purebreds can still be fantastic owners and the dogs make great pets.Cross bred breeders don't have a monopoly on puppy farming and if there weren't so many people telling the world how great their cross bred puppies were people would stop buying them.

Both sides are capable of spreading crap about what they see as the best and real world but people buy dogs of any type because they are able to make their own choices - some will like purebreds others wont care if they are purebred or not. There is just as much argument - if not more that the marketing of purebreds and the pressure on breeders to only breed a litter or two a year and God forbid for the pet market has helped puppy farmers of both registered purebred breeders and cross bred breeders. Its supply and demand.

Or Purpose and Response.

I think ALL breeders would be more successful, and owners too, if people were taught to ask before breeding or buying, what is the purpose, and do I understand how to respond effectively to it.

No Org. can replace individual purpose or response. That is always going to be individual. It won't ever depend on the environment a dog is bred in , but on the purpose and responses of the breeder, and those who buy the dog.

Teaching where to buy from is not the same as teaching to consider the purpose, and the responses that make it a worth while one, that works for the individual.

The environment that bred the dog doesn't guarantee anything except that the dogs parents had a place in that environment. It doesn't quarantee a purpose, and it doesn't say the dog will respond effectively to its environment. That it will live up to your expectations.

Only breeding for demonstrated effectiveness to purpose gives you a good chance the resulting dogs will be able to respond to it effectively.

Edited December 13, 2016 by moosmum