I Know This Has Probably Been Done To Death...

[poochmad]

Before anyone flames me, I read the rules before starting this thread.

What I want to know, is what is the go regarding poodle cross dogs?

My sister recently asked me about all the dogs that don't shed because they have a son with terrible eczema (and yes I know it may not be the coat, it could be the dander or saliva, but I didn't want to make it complicated) so I gave her a list of all the breeds that don't shed or minimal shedding (if we get technical), provided pros and cons of each breed and estimated costs, plus breeders in her area. For her family, I recommended the mini schnauzer, the Bichon, Havanese and Lagotto (because that's most likely my next breed).

In November she contacts me and asks about Labrador crosses and I gave her the standard answers we all know (puppy farms, not checking for genetic issues, no guarantee, the whole bit)...so surprise, surprise she sends me a photo of a litter of pups (all look smooth coated) with a curly coated bitch and I'm like please don't tell me that's a poodle cross...and of course it is.

Apparently 5 of her friends have one and rave about them. So of course I upset her and her kid by telling the truth and to think she cries poor, when she's probably forked out $4k plus on a dog with no guarantee and is going to be big!

A woman at work just got rid of her two cavalier cross breeds because they shed, and even though I don't think she should have a dog I gave her a list of breeds suitable for a family, yet today she tells me she'd buy another as long as they don't shed.

Two other families we know have recently purchased cav crosses as well.

And each time I hear it, I say, did you do any research into purebreds that won't shed and you know exactly what you are getting, as well as a breeder who ensures as well as they can of no genetic problems, who will give lifelong support, will take the dog back if required, etc ...and when I show them pictures of these dogs, they tell me they had no idea...and had they known, they would have got one. Sigh.

So tell me, why? What the bloody hell is the reason?

I should add that I 'apologised for my outburst but I care about her and don't want her to have a dog with lifelong problems etc' and had to swallow my tongue to say great news.

Oh to top it off, they haven't even seen the mother. Just picked a pup from a photo. Ack!

What happened to waiting until the pups were older and picking the right temp?

Edited December 8, 2016 by poochmad

[mowgliandme]

I think that most people don't do much research about the type of dog that they are getting, so they are getting what their friends have and designer dogs are sort of "fashionable" so lots of people have them

There is a sort of perception that pedigrees are only for people who are only showing dogs - even though there are lots of benefits of having a pedigree, genetically sound, health tested dog!

People can be a bit put off by actual poodles because of the pom pommy hair cuts

I dont think many people understand that not every poodle cross is going to be non shedding

People get wowed by words like "the best of both worlds"

Back yard breeders and puppy farms are good at advertising and registered breeders are often difficult to get in contact with and have few litters which can mean long wait times - which doesn't go well with the "puppy for christmas" mentality that some people have

People are after a bunch of characteristics which may not be present in a single purebreed hence why they want the personality of a "xyz" with non shedding hair of the poodle

There is also little knowledge of the purebreeds available that are non shedding and in a certain size range (small-medium but not toy size) and also another terrible reason but the ones that are often dont have the classic floppy ears/teddy bear "look" that people are after (like miniature schnauzers and westies - even though they are beautiful!)

I hope my post doesn't get deleted because of this

Edited December 17, 2016 by mowgliandme

[Roova]

When I was searching for my next dog (before finding this site) poodle crosses were high on the list of suggested breeds in the online breed calculators I started using. French Bulldogs were also featured highly and I've always preferred purebreds so I went down that track instead. There has to be a reason their popularity has remained though and the few I've met do seem to end up as lovely natured, easy to look after dogs. I'm sure the opposite exists too.

Most photos of oodle crosses seem to be of the cute puppies, not always the odd looking adult dogs and the 'don't shed' push never seems to mention this just means the hair keeps growing and needs constant grooming!

My sister did the same thing when a lot of her friends had oodles and she had seen them with the kids and liked their small size and nature. She set out to rescue one and after six months of calling pounds she got one (he was an escape artist). He is about 10 now, has survived three young kids and really is the most placid easy going dog. He is regularly clipped and the kids brush him inbetween. She wasn't looking for anything more than a dog which would be safe with the kids and determined the whole 'mix' would be suitable. She also got a Cav cross from the pound who has proved to be a lovely dog.

When we meet up my dogs maaay not sell the purebred dog side of things as the Frenchie grunts and is a little nervy and my Border Terrier just wants to love on the kids and lick their faces :laugh:

[BarbedWire]

It's to do with the marketing. Initially it was poodle crosses which were marketed as being low shedding and good for allergy sufferers and then it was the cav crosses. There was a TV programme a few years back about dogs who won at Crufts and who had major health issues, especially cavs, and it had a huge impact on the general population. People believe that purebred dogs (especially cavs, pugs, and Frenchies who are popular because of their temperaments) are inbred and have health issues and that by crossing two breeds it is supposed to bring out the healthiest in both breeds. It is called hybrid vigour. That is the way it started. Now it is fashionable to have an oodle or a cav cross or whatever and people speak about their cross breed dogs, especially the cavalier x poodles, as if they are pure breed dogs. They will even go to great lengths to tell you all about their dog's breed and how wonderful it is. There are now even third or fourth generations of these crosses being sold.

I am not sure if I am allowed to say this but I think that once a purebred dog becomes popular it is overbred to satisfy the market and many poor examples of the breed (ones that have never been near a show ring and often don't have papers) are produced and then bred from and that gives the breed a bad name. Purebreed dog breeders need to up their marketing.

[tdierikx]

Marketing for purebreds is not as bad as one would think... why else would people be insisting on "breed" names for their crosses? People like to say they have a particular "breed" of dog after all - evidenced by the vehemence with which they insist on calling them those silly crossed names... and then adding a price tag to match...

T.

[Two Best Dogs!]

On my end at least, all the oodles I have met have been outstanding and personally I would rave about them too. They're not my kind of dog lookswise, but I really have liked all the ones I've met - both at obedience and out and about in life.

I can't say how many were pet stores versus rescues versus puppy mills versus purpose bred. But I have consistently been impressed by them. I know there are f1s out there that are disasters out of badly bred purebred parents with shit raising conditions but I've not met them personally so they haven't given me a personal negative opinion yet like various other breeds where you have that one or two bad experiences that put you off forever (or the one or two good experience that make you love them! Cavs ????) But personal experiences are what partially effect people's choices you know? You have multiple good experiences and everyone you know with one is happy...you'd prob consider getting one. And they do fill that xyz niche when people are looking for something and none of the easily available breeds just quite match what they're looking for. And yes great marketing to a demand just waiting to snap up dogs.

It's been...what, 20 years? I don't think they're going to suddenly drop out of demand anymore than farmers with lurchers. And not everyone values the purebred designation or even a pedigree. (The latter I hope could be improved through education and talking about the value of knowing family lines but you won't grab everyone. The shell be right attitude, the desire for one dog over another, indifference etc).

You can tar and feather me now for liking oodles of doodles x's ????

[mackiemad]

I think it comes down to the simple fact that they've met lots of those kinds of dogs.

They've met them, they thought it was cute and the ones they've met are healthy and easy dogs to live with (or at least they believe that).

I really don't think it's any more complicated than that these days.

There is the perception that purebreds aren't healthy, and when every 'staffy type' people meet and assume are purebred have allergies it confirms the thought in their head.

[karen15]

I think it would be great if the national body and state bodies did a dedicated ad campaign coming into Christmas. Even team up with pet chains to do regular promotions during the year.

As said above, the majority of people are totally unaware of the purebred alternatives to oodles. Ads that show popular oodle crosses and refer to them as such not the catchy names they're given, even noting that years ago they'd be giveaway or free, and show next to them the purebred dogs of similar size, noting temperament, breed traits etc. Even noting current price of random oodle cross vs the cost of the pretty predicable purebred, reiterating again that crosses used to be free / very cheap.

Explain why they need to wait for a pup instead of buy randomly. Breeders are only breeding to demand, not excess, like puppy mills. They care about where their puppies go and, generally, have invested a great deal of time in their breed.

If people think they are getting a quality product for a good price, my experience is they'll pick quality over mass produced.

The thing that national and state bodies would need to ensure is that registered breeders were ethical, followed an enforced code of conduct,did everything possible to limit health issues but fully disclosed breed issues. We all know purebreds have issues, but knowledgeable breeding and relevant testing can go a long way to reducing the risks.

[Maddy]

Who the hell knows.

My BIL and SIL bought a labrador x poodle from a well-known puppy mill a year ago and while both are very educated, intelligent people, they dropped a hefty amount of cash (double what I paid for my purebred Shitty Whippet) for a huge git of a dog who has already had both his hips done and one knee. The dog is only twelve months old and already falling to bits.

Personally, I can't understand why anyone would want one, even if they were healthy. In my opinion, they never fail to be really ugly, odd looking dogs. Poodles are nice enough looking dogs, labs are nice looking dogs, add the two together and it's as if the mix wipes out all the real identifying traits for both breeds and you get left with a glob of dog whose only identifying traits are its murky, yellow eyes and odd temperament. No thanks.

I should point out here that I'm not against crossbreeding for a purpose and there is an entire group of crossbred dogs that I'd consider owning (lurchers/longdogs, I spend way too much time dream dog shopping on Battersea's website* ) and I can see why some mixes work for a given purpose, such as the saluki/whippet or greyhound crosses as lamping dogs, but the poodle/lab mix doesn't improve on particular trait so why do it?

Should probably add- no offense to any oodle owners on here. I'm sure your dog/s is great/cute/healthy but yeah, not my thing.

* https://www.battersea.org.uk/dogs/todd?filters=true&centre=&gender=&size=&liveChild=&liveDog=&liveCat=&breed=lurcher&reset=&returnID=14810639576756040328&id=257826 Those ridiculous floofy ears.

When I was searching for my next dog (before finding this site) poodle crosses were high on the list of suggested breeds in the online breed calculators I started using.

All the more reason not to trust those things. I have no idea what system they use to determine breeds but in every one I've tried, I've never gotten greyhound or whippet as a result. Just did the Pedigree one again to check and my results.. Labradors, Australian terriers, Pembroke corgi, pugs. Most of the breeds that came back were small or medium breeds, despite me selecting large/giant as the size preference. My coat preference was smooth short-coated, instead it brings up some notorious shedders. If I'd picked out a breed based on that advice, I'd have been very disappointed. They really need to add a disclaimer to that, something like "Our advice does not necessarily take your preferences into account, at all. The selected breeds may be completely incompatible with your lifestyle. Good luck with that."

[RuralPug]

...

When I was searching for my next dog (before finding this site) poodle crosses were high on the list of suggested breeds in the online breed calculators I started using.

All the more reason not to trust those things. I have no idea what system they use to determine breeds but in every one I've tried, I've never gotten greyhound or whippet as a result. Just did the Pedigree one again to check and my results.. Labradors, Australian terriers, Pembroke corgi, pugs. Most of the breeds that came back were small or medium breeds, despite me selecting large/giant as the size preference. My coat preference was smooth short-coated, instead it brings up some notorious shedders. If I'd picked out a breed based on that advice, I'd have been very disappointed. They really need to add a disclaimer to that, something like "Our advice does not necessarily take your preferences into account, at all. The selected breeds may be completely incompatible with your lifestyle. Good luck with that."

can be true!!

Never ceases to amaze me how breeds with such different needs can pop up as a result of the same search. Look at your example - two of my fave breeds of all time are on that list: Australian Terriers and Pugs. I would never recommend both as a good match for the same family!!!

That said, I often recommend breed selectors as a foot in the door to get people starting to think about matching their lifestyle to a breed. :)

[Sheridan]

As someone with breeds that don't shed and one that gets mistaken for an oodle most of the time, it amazes me that people fall for the non-shedding aspect of oodledom. I have met a number of people with oodles recently whose dogs shed more than Labradors in general. They always seem so puzzled about it.

[westiemum]

Was at the dog park yesterday - absolutely beautiful GSD, Dane, OES, staffy, lab... and the only problem child was this big 'glob' of a dog (thanks Maddy - thats exactly the right description) - oodle of some sort and HUGE! Stupid thing had no social skills whatsoever - my 15 year old Sarah gave him 'what for' - she has a fierce reputation of putting badly behaved puppies and dogs in their place. I was less than impressed and Maddy I absolutely agree with your post - this thing was a really butt ugly dog. And yes you've helped me put my finger on why i dislike these dogs so much - and apart form the Mac/puppy farm connection they are generally really stupid and somehow 'purposeless' - they are such a mixture that they end up being nothing! So not my thing either.

[westiemum]

As someone with breeds that don't shed and one that gets mistaken for an oodle most of the time, it amazes me that people fall for the non-shedding aspect of oodledom. I have met a number of people with oodles recently whose dogs shed more than Labradors in general. They always seem so puzzled about it.

Same here Sheridan - you only need to have done primary school genetics to know its a lottery. Some people are really silly - they make a 10 - 15 year commitment and do less research than their next car or pair of running shoes!

[juice]

I think it has alot to do with where you live and the dog being "in", there are shedloads round here, and they are either mad as hatters or terrified of everything.

Persoanlly, can't stand them, looks do nothing for me.

I also think the ease of which you can get one adds to it, i was in the petshop and a lady was ordering one , colour , sex etc and the owner was writing it in his book and saying when it would be in!

Purebred breeders don't help either, they either dont reply to people or are often just bloody rude.

I know a neighbour bought an oodle because he looked at a rescue pup and said he didnt see why he should jump through hoops to get it so went to the petshop.

Bottom line is they are easy to get, generally not very big and kids are not scared of them.

[mowgliandme]

I think there is a huge difference between the petshop/puppy farm oodles and ones that are ethically bred by good breeders (yes they do exist but i realise there are not many of them)

When we went to puppy school at the vet (mostly oodles and a couple of dachshunds) the pet shop oodles were scared, uncomfortable, yappy, highly strung and obviously not well socialised.

I would not be surprised if they were to grown into nutty hyper dogs at all...and to be fair i dont think the owners really valued obedience and would probably be the type to let their nutty dogs loose at the park with no recall - some of them were already letting these tiny 3month old puppies walk without a leash in the streets

[Roova]

When I got obedience lessons a while back the trainer I went to (who has a purpose built training shed on her property) had two oodles of some kind as her dogs. They were completely obedience and trick trained and used in movies and ads etc. She uses them for distraction work when training and boy were they good. They knew when they were working and were very responsive to her so I think like any dog, they're as good as the effort put in to them. She at least bought from a breeder who health tests which was a blessing (and more than some purebred breeders do!). They were large but their coat was clipped in a way which made them look quite cute.

[Simply Grand]

The thing that always comes up in these discussions on DOL is the bias of people who just don't like them and say they are ALL stupid, rude, ugly, untrained etc etc.

As you can see just from the few examples given in this thread, they are not ALL like anything, any more than any other type of dog are ALL like anything.

I agree with all the reasons already given for their popularity and the fact is they aren't going away so there's no point getting mad about them. I wish the focus could be on trying to ensure they are bred and sold in a healthy, happy and responsible way rather than on just saying none of them should ever exist.

And yes, I do have one. He was my first ever dog and I got him because I knew someone else with same mix and he was a great little dog. I didn't know much about dogs at the time but fortunately he has turned out great. At 7 he has had no health issues, is obedience and agility trained, is super adaptable, great with people and dogs of all sizes and even patiently continues to let me use him as a training tool for my 30kg foster dog who he is well aware wants to kill him (that sounds awful but it's carefully controlled).

Edited December 7, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Rascalmyshadow]

Personally I am not a big fan of oodles (with the exception of schnauzer x poodle) however most of them I have groomed over the years have been fantastic dogs, well behaved and wonderful family dogs, most of them have had better temperaments than the purebred poodles I've groomed (and owned) and most of them have had good owners that put in the time for training and grooming, I don't think it fair to criticise someone for wanting one.

[Chloe08]

Five of my friends have poodle crosses. I wanted to avoid puppy farms and researched my poodle for over a year. All of my friends have very friendly approachable and smart dogs. I adore my poodle but she is anxious, doesn't like people approaching her and is vey wary of new people coming into our house. I diid loads of socialisation and training. I guess you cannot generalise from a small sample but all the poodle crosses I have met have been great dogs.

[Maddy]

The thing that always comes up in these discussions on DOL is the bias of people who just don't like them and say they are ALL stupid, rude, ugly, untrained etc etc.

As you can see just from the few examples given in this thread, they are not ALL like anything, any more than any other type of dog are ALL like anything.

I agree with all the reasons already given for their popularity and the fact is they aren't going away so there's no point getting mad about them. I wish the focus could be on trying to ensure they are bred and sold in a healthy, happy and responsible way rather than on just saying none of them should ever exist.

And yes, I do have one. He was my first ever dog and I got him because I knew someone else with same mix and he was a great little dog. I didn't know much about dogs at the time but fortunately he has turned out great. At 7 he has had no health issues, is obedience and agility trained, is super adaptable, great with people and dogs of all sizes and even patiently continues to let me use him as a training tool for my 30kg foster dog who he is well aware wants to kill him (that sounds awful but it's carefully controlled).

To each, their own. I've seen people say on here that they think greyhounds are ugly and that's fine by me. How appealing something looks is always going to be subjective so there's not much point getting upset over other peoples' tastes.

And as with tastes, opinions of other traits will also be somewhat subjective and based on the sorts of oodles that person has met. No one was saying the it was Absolute Unquestionable Fact. I've met many lab x poodles from the puppy farm I mentioned (anyone from down here will probably be able to guess the name) and they've all had scatty, odd temperaments- so it seems likely to me that I've met a pretty average representation of the type. Over-exuberant yet also very nervy, pushy, quick to snap and with zero dog manners. Maybe part of that is just bad breeding but equally, some may be the result of breed/trait combinations that just don't do well together.

Like I said, I don't see the point in a dog that failed at what it was originally intended for (because you can't guarantee anything with the "breed") but if someone wants to own one I know my BIL and SIL bought one because they believed what the dodgy-as-f*** breeder told them. They thought they were doing the right thing and buying a good family pet from an ethical breeder. They are aware of their mistake now but the breeder already has their $2000 and undoubtedly has plenty more suckers lined up.

I guess my biggest problem with oodles is that rarely do you hear about them coming from breeders who actually care about anything besides profit. A few people are allegedly working on making lab x poodles into a proper breed but I have to wonder about the motivation for that when there are already purebred dogs that fit the look/function they are after.