mowgliandme Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 Need recommendations for good places for dog training in Melbourne's south east but they must actually be positive reinforcement only! We just got back from the worst class ever, I sucked it up for class but left in tears Apparently they cant teach no jumping to dogs without a “correctional collar” and they encouraged dogs to jump up by exciting them and patting their legs and then yanked it when it did! Apparently that’s how you teach, you set up scenarios where your dog will fail and then suffocate it with a martingale collar harshly. Apparently a dog barking in fear at a passing scooter needs to be firmly corrected and then taken over to where the scooter was and corrected again (until it yelped) for sniffing the ground where the scooter was – how is this even dog training at all? I am at a loss, I pretty much covered my dogs eyes and gave her treats while this happened. None of this was done with my dog (nor will it ever be!) but I was encouraged to get a martingale collar which I refused because my tiny puppy was sniffing a lot while we were waiting for the next exercise even though she was responding well when actually asked to do things. I am very happy with training my dog myself (which I have been doing) I just want the added distractions of dogs working in close proximity which I haven’t managed to get successfully at the park to the same level as training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonwoman Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 Need recommendations for good places for dog training in Melbourne's south east but they must actually be positive reinforcement only! We just got back from the worst class ever, I sucked it up for class but left in tears Apparently they cant teach no jumping to dogs without a “correctional collar” and they encouraged dogs to jump up by exciting them and patting their legs and then yanked it when it did! Apparently that’s how you teach, you set up scenarios where your dog will fail and then suffocate it with a martingale collar harshly. Apparently a dog barking in fear at a passing scooter needs to be firmly corrected and then taken over to where the scooter was and corrected again (until it yelped) for sniffing the ground where the scooter was – how is this even dog training at all? I am at a loss, I pretty much covered my dogs eyes and gave her treats while this happened. None of this was done with my dog (nor will it ever be!) but I was encouraged to get a martingale collar which I refused because my tiny puppy was sniffing a lot while we were waiting for the next exercise even though she was responding well when actually asked to do things. I am very happy with training my dog myself (which I have been doing) I just want the added distractions of dogs working in close proximity which I haven’t managed to get successfully at the park to the same level as training. Name no names but was this a local obedience club or a private "club"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Kisses Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 Ugh. They sound similar to the training company I first got in for Malcolm. You are right to run in the opposite direction. These directories may help: Delta Institute Pet Professional Guild Australia Association of Pet Dog Trainers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Best Dogs! Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 Oh mowgli I am so sorry If there are no other classes nearby, you could bow out of attending classes but still arrive as classes are on to work on distraction and distance? Then if there is a trainer you object to you can move away to work near a different class. I only know about northern and eastern schools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgliandme Posted December 4, 2016 Author Share Posted December 4, 2016 Name no names but was this a local obedience club or a private "club"? I'm not really sure on the definition but I don't think its a local obedience club so probably private! As in, its not something like "location" dog club? Ugh. They sound similar to the training company I first got in for Malcolm. You are right to run in the opposite direction. These directories may help: Delta Institute Pet Professional Guild Australia Association of Pet Dog Trainers Thank you for those links PK :) looking into them now, I am looking for a school which is outdoors though because she has no problems with focus/obedience at all inside, on the streets, on trains, in the city etc and we are just working on distraction work mainly around lots of other dogs in parks (not that we go to parks much but I would like her to be able to work around dogs) I think I was too naive, I honestly thought that that kind of training didn't exist any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Kisses Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 It's really tricky because some places kind of dress themselves up as being dog friendly. The people I got in were even advertised at my vet. There will be reference to rewards and such but then they do these horrible things too. If someone calls themself a "balanced" trainer I consider that a red flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgliandme Posted December 4, 2016 Author Share Posted December 4, 2016 Oh mowgli I am so sorry If there are no other classes nearby, you could bow out of attending classes but still arrive as classes are on to work on distraction and distance? Then if there is a trainer you object to you can move away to work near a different class. I only know about northern and eastern schools Not your fault thistle! :) I think we are both too soft, mowgli and me! I think she would shut down with corrections and I would be in tears like i was today just watching - if I can train her in purely positive ways, I will! I'm not really sure if its just that trainer that we had today but so far we've had 2 (apart from from the head trainer who i feel is much more positive) who have done things like this or suggested things like correcting other peoples dog for "dominance" things like "getting on the couch" when they weren't in the room I think I would be too annoying if i was training nearby? She is excellent at doing anything if we are standing still and there are dogs nearby (even a couple of meters) its just i have difficulty with loose leash walking near dogs so we have to go sit in a driveway while people walk past us in the street etc - so i'm going to try find dogs to practise walking nicely with sometime soon! That said she is only a puppy so it is expecting a lot of her anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgliandme Posted December 4, 2016 Author Share Posted December 4, 2016 It's really tricky because some places kind of dress themselves up as being dog friendly. The people I got in were even advertised at my vet. There will be reference to rewards and such but then they do these horrible things too. If someone calls themself a "balanced" trainer I consider that a red flag. Noted for next time...this one had "positive" in the name so i thought it would be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 PM me please and I will give you the names of two trainers that I'd trust with my own dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Best Dogs! Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 (edited) Oh mowgli I am so sorry If there are no other classes nearby, you could bow out of attending classes but still arrive as classes are on to work on distraction and distance? Then if there is a trainer you object to you can move away to work near a different class. I only know about northern and eastern schools Not your fault thistle! :) I think we are both too soft, mowgli and me! I think she would shut down with corrections and I would be in tears like i was today just watching - if I can train her in purely positive ways, I will! I'm not really sure if its just that trainer that we had today but so far we've had 2 (apart from from the head trainer who i feel is much more positive) who have done things like this or suggested things like correcting other peoples dog for "dominance" things like "getting on the couch" when they weren't in the room I think I would be too annoying if i was training nearby? She is excellent at doing anything if we are standing still and there are dogs nearby (even a couple of meters) its just i have difficulty with loose leash walking near dogs so we have to go sit in a driveway while people walk past us in the street etc - so i'm going to try find dogs to practise walking nicely with sometime soon! That said she is only a puppy so it is expecting a lot of her anyways Yes it is very varied, I come and complain here too when I get a trainer I conflict with. I think around start of the year I was really struggling and digging in my feet on correction suggestions for a specific problem and even though I wasn't correcting, I was so upset by end of each class Thistle and I really went backwards for awhile. (It's in the reactive dog thread somewhere). We like being challenged, but need to be challenged in the right way so this was too much challenge in the wrong way for us. I don't think you'd be annoying to train nearby. I have seen people with both personal dog trainers and on their own doing training with their dogs. You wouldn't be anywhere near as annoying as those who just let their untrained dogs offlead and loose near the classes. Now THAT'S annoying! But someone doing loops around the park working on their own dog? :) Love them. (and technically you'd be working near more types of dogs cause you could move from class to class to age group to age group! You would miss out on the group walking though) T likes to kick the ground around after pissing, I keep being told its dominance but honestly I think it's more her dog social nervousness where she uh overcompensates for nerves by being TOO enthusiastic. Although I do try to distract her from it when the ground is wet so she doesn't damage the park... You might be near the monthly pets market? I found them great for training but they moved down south so now too far away from me :'( http://www.doggyteabreaks.com/the-pets-market/ They have a pure positive trainer on site who has lovely dogs to work around :) their instagram is slowdogtraining, idk their company name. Eta: Oooh! Yes PM TSD, I'm sure they know lots of trainers you could scope out and see if you can work with. Edited December 4, 2016 by Thistle the dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgliandme Posted December 4, 2016 Author Share Posted December 4, 2016 Yes it is very varied, I come and complain here too when I get a trainer I conflict with. I think around start of the year I was really struggling and digging in my feet on correction suggestions for a specific problem and even though I wasn't correcting, I was so upset by end of each class Thistle and I really went backwards for awhile. (It's in the reactive dog thread somewhere). We like being challenged, but need to be challenged in the right way so this was too much challenge in the wrong way for us. I don't think you'd be annoying to train nearby. I have seen people with both personal dog trainers and on their own doing training with their dogs. You wouldn't be anywhere near as annoying as those who just let their untrained dogs offlead and loose near the classes. Now THAT'S annoying! But someone doing loops around the park working on their own dog? :) Love them. (and technically you'd be working near more types of dogs cause you could move from class to class to age group to age group! You would miss out on the group walking though) T likes to kick the ground around after pissing, I keep being told its dominance but honestly I think it's more her dog social nervousness where she uh overcompensates for nerves by being TOO enthusiastic. Although I do try to distract her from it when the ground is wet so she doesn't damage the park... You might be near the monthly pets market? I found them great for training but they moved down south so now too far away from me :'( http://www.doggyteabreaks.com/the-pets-market/ They have a pure positive trainer on site who has lovely dogs to work around :) their instagram is slowdogtraining, idk their company name. Eta: Oooh! Yes PM TSD, I'm sure they know lots of trainers you could scope out and see if you can work with. Thanks for all the suggestions :) we may train nearby one day (we are rarely here for weekends anyways) I havent let her off the leash properly (i've let go of it a couple of times when i was sure she would come back and she did) but we use a 10m lead for park work so we dont bother other dogs - but other dogs come and bother us instead Pet market sounds lovely - locked it into the calendar! I thought the dominance theory had been disproven...? i would think shes kicking the ground in an instinctual "burying" type way - ive had dogs that do that that definitely werent "dominant" in any case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Kisses Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 You are NOT "too soft". You are doing the right thing by your dog and science is on your side. :) You know all this, but for the confidence boost: https://www.ava.com.au/sites/default/files/AVA_website/pdfs/Reward-based-training-brochure-WEB.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgliandme Posted December 4, 2016 Author Share Posted December 4, 2016 You are NOT "too soft". You are doing the right thing by your dog and science is on your side. :) You know all this, but for the confidence boost: https://www.ava.com.au/sites/default/files/AVA_website/pdfs/Reward-based-training-brochure-WEB.pdf Thank you PK :D knew it was the right thing to be doing for my dog! Just probably didn't need to cry the whole way home because someone else's puppy got corrected that ive never even talked to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundyburger Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 Underdog is amazing if they're close enough to go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 You are NOT "too soft". You are doing the right thing by your dog and science is on your side. :) You know all this, but for the confidence boost: https://www.ava.com.au/sites/default/files/AVA_website/pdfs/Reward-based-training-brochure-WEB.pdf Thank you PK :D knew it was the right thing to be doing for my dog! Just probably didn't need to cry the whole way home because someone else's puppy got corrected that ive never even talked to Seeing that stuff makes me both furious and sad too! I went along to the only community obedience club near me and they were teaching jerking puppies in beginner class around by the collar and yelling at dogs in the higher grades for not doing exercises perfectly even though they were working really well and trying hard. You could see owners were uncomfortable with it to but unfortunately people often go along with things thinking the instructor must know best. When I was teaching classes one of the first things I would say was that I was teaching the class but they are their dogs protector in any situation and they should never do something they are not comfortable with (although we did do positive only so it wasn't generally an issue, I just wanted them to understand that it is their right and their responsibility to decide what happens to their dog). Also, I was talking about that "set the dog up then punish the behaviour" approach on an FB group the other day. It's horrible to do it to a dog that does either cope or shut down, but if someone had taken that approach with my current foster dog, who had all sorts of issues at first, she would have bitten the crap out of them so it would have been really dangerous. Plus it would have ruined any chance of rehabilitating her Sorry I can't help with any recommendations but definitely talk to TSD and Underdog (cosmolo on DOL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 And OT, but Thistle interesting what out say about T kicking the ground after she pees, foster dog Molly does that all the time too, as well as after she poos, and also marks quite a lot out in public. When the vet behaviourist saw her do it she commented that it was dominance too. Molly does have a "dominant" type of personality with other dogs but she's also unsure of herself and I get the feeling like you that the insecurity/discomfort contributes to the behaviour. My dog Quinn is also quite a "dominant" dog but she is much more confident and competent with other dogs and she only marks and does a little bit of kicking when she is in season, which adds to me thinking that dogs (females at least) who do it all the time, especially if desexed, as Molly is, have something going on other than just wanting to show other dogs who's boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Kisses Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 It's a way to spread scent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 It's a way to spread scent. Yes, but some dogs do all the time and some don't ever do it. The instinct presumably comes from claiming territory (dominance and communication) and communicating that you are around and available for mating (bitch in season) so it's interesting to think about why individuals do it when not all of them do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonwoman Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 It's a way to spread scent. Yes, but some dogs do all the time and some don't ever do it. The instinct presumably comes from claiming territory (dominance and communication) and communicating that you are around and available for mating (bitch in season) so it's interesting to think about why individuals do it when not all of them do. I believe, after many years and lots of dogs, some rescued, that it is not simple dominance, dogs who feel insecure will do it to reassure themselves they have life under control.........so some bottom of the heap dogs do it too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Peeing and scratching to let your dog friends know you've been by - is not the same as dominance. I did observe my dog check a p-mail that was quite high up a post, and then elect not to pee there - like she wanted to keep her presence unadvertised. That was interesting. Must have been a very big scary dog. Most of the time she adds her message. dog trainers around melbourne - I agree with PM TSD. Meanwhile you might find this helpful. It's a podcast you can download and listen to - I usually load them up on an mp3 player or my phone. Tim Ferris interviews Susan Garrett on dog training... 2hours and 4 minutes jam packed with dog training for an awesome family pet includes descriptions of its yer choice, restrained recall, call once game, collar grab, how to potty train and more. Most of all it covers why you use reward based training (faster and better bond) and why you don't use punishment (fallout). http://fourhourworkweek.com/2016/11/14/susan-garrett/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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