Positive Reinforcement And Dominance

[frazz]

I'm feeling pretty confused about training and issues of positive reinforcement versus dominance. Before getting a puppy I had read a lot about positive reinforcement and it was all I wanted to use to train, along with distraction/diversion if needed. I have read comments in facebook groups that the dominance theory of training a dog is out of date. Trainers at puppy preschool have been using "no" commands and tugging on collars (with or without lead on) to stop puppies doing what they don't want. That is not how I wanted to train my puppy - was I unrealistic, are they right about this? They also recommend using a soft-check collar and say you can't train a puppy, or control any dog walking them on a harness rather than a collar. I have an Amstaff X so I know I need to be in control when we get up to the point of walking in public but feel disappointed as I wanted to walk him in a harness. I feel like the neck area is too sensitive and easily injured for a dog to pull against, or for a human leading them to pull against or check against. I'd welcome some thoughts on this.

[Simply Grand]

I will reply in more depth tomorrow, and I'm sure others will too, but in brief - having trained my own dogs through puppy preschool to formal obedience, trained foster and shelter dogs and taught puppy classes - IMO there is no need to or benefit to using "no" or collar jerks to "show what you don't want" with young puppies, or any dog really.

There are heaps of things you can do with your puppy now to set up for a life long positive training relationship and none involve "dominating" or physical punishment.

As far as tools go, you can teach a dog to walk nicely using whatever tools suit you, it can be done on a flat collar but it can also be done on an appropriate harness. Ideally on either. I assume a "soft check" is a martingale or half check collar (part flat collar, part chain or fabric loop?), in my quite extensive experience these type of collars are great for stopping dogs that have a thick neck in comparison to the size of their head from slipping out of their collar if they are jumping around, but not of any other benefit in training, other than it's slightly easier to strangle the dog with than a flat (normal) collar, if that's something one wants to do...

[frazz]

I will reply in more depth tomorrow, and I'm sure others will too, but in brief - having trained my own dogs through puppy preschool to formal obedience, trained foster and shelter dogs and taught puppy classes - IMO there is no need to or benefit to using "no" or collar jerks to "show what you don't want" with young puppies, or any dog really.

There are heaps of things you can do with your puppy now to set up for a life long positive training relationship and none involve "dominating" or physical punishment.

As far as tools go, you can teach a dog to walk nicely using whatever tools suit you, it can be done on a flat collar but it can also be done on an appropriate harness. Ideally on either. I assume a "soft check" is a martingale or half check collar (part flat collar, part chain or fabric loop?), in my quite extensive experience these type of collars are great for stopping dogs that have a thick neck in comparison to the size of their head from slipping out of their collar if they are jumping around, but not of any other benefit in training, other than it's slightly easier to strangle the dog with than a flat (normal) collar, if that's something one wants to do...

Thank you. I appreciate your advice and look forward to any more you have to offer. The trainer took my puppy off me because he was moving around and making noises towards other dogs. She spoke harshly and pulled on his collar several times. He stopped dropped his head towards the floor and looked up at me with his eyes - sooo sad. He had no idea what he was being punished for. I thought about it later - neither did I - it wasn't as though he'd refused to follow an order and he was in a foreign environment with no precedent on how to behave. The more I think about it the more terrible I feel and hope I didn't start losing his trust because I let a stranger take him away and do that. If anyone should have been punished it should have been me for not telling him what to do (and I wasn't really sure myself) but if I'd been given a chance I would have called his name and told him to sit and I'm pretty sure that would have sorted the problem out.

Edited November 29, 2016 by frazz

[dididog]

I'll disagree with you a bit there SG, I found a martingale very useful for teaching LLW and not because I was using it as an (intentional) physical aversive. Personally I prefer to have control over my dogs head (when needed, leave its and focussed heeling are usually sufficient but definitely not reliable during puppyhood!) afforded by walking on some sort of collar, especially when you have a large dog and walk in busy situations like I normally do. With my next dog I think I'll be using a harness in association with a martingale just for safety sake, because yes little puppy necks are sensitive.

Anyway, since I wanted to be able to walk on a flat collar eventually the martingale was primarily to get her used to yielding to pressure on the neck. Now with a flat collar I didn't find it very easy for my dog to notice subtle changes in pressure and when there was pressure it was all exerted to the front of her throat. Obviously avoiding puppy hitting the end of the lead like this is ideal but not a very realistic goal when you have no yard and a large puppy that needs to go outside on lead everyday irregardless of training! The martingale wasn't used to correct or jerk her around so much as help convey the sensation of pressure on the collar and distributed the pressure more evenly across the neck/throat when the inevitable did happen. I would pair her increasing pressure on the leash with me stopping or changing direction and would reward easing off the pressure and walking nicely with me instead (and also heavily rewarding all other instances of nice walking and focus, not just after an incident of pulling/pressure). Eventually she began to make the connection that if there was pressure on the collar she needed to ease off and would self correct to a pace where there was no pressure because loose lead = thing mummy wants and I get rewarded for!! Not to say this is actual training advice or anything, I've only trained one dog and it took us a realllllllyyy long time to get nice LLW but I just wanted to point out that martingales can serve a training purpose beyond intentionally inflicting pain or corrections. I will admit there have been a few tugs and jerks out of sheer frustration or instinct reaction but I never did them thinking I was making a solid training decision and my dog doesn't find even quite harsh tugs aversive enough to change behaviour anyway. I still walk her on the martingale as she does actually have neck thicker than her head and I like that she can't slip out but the skills have transferred to a flat collar too.

It sounds like you have the right intuitions when it comes to how to approach puppy training, it always amused me at my old (and not highly recommended) club all of the trainers telling puppies NO! like they would instinctively know what that meant. Unless you've been proofing something in that same level of distraction for a reasonable amount of time (ie not puppy preschool!) then it is completely unreasonable to expect a puppy to know what it should be doing and the only thing you can and should be doing is redirecting to a more desirable behaviour and rewarding your pup for its efforts. Unfortunately a lot of puppy preschool environments set puppies up to fail and make even redirection difficult if not impossible. If I had my time again with my puppy (well dog, she's 3 now) it would be upping the amount I played with her A LOT. The best thing you can do is play with your puppy and teach it that interacting and engaging with you is the best thing ever and it's so easy to slip training all the boring necessities in amongst that playing. I didn't do enough playing when my dog was a baby pup and we had to rediscover it when she was a year old, the improvement in EVERYTHING was amazing and even though I'm now not actively training her, we do play almost everyday and she's almost as polished as when we were going to a club twice a week because she still thinks I'm pretty alright. I'm very much a novice trash trainer though and I'm sure some much more respectable trainers will pop in this thread for advice :)

I just saw your reply to SG I think you should either a) find another puppy preschool because you're right that's a completely unnecessary and unnacceptable way to act toward a puppy or b) stick it out but make it VERY CLEAR next time you go that the trainer is not to do anything to your puppy without your explicit permission and definitely not correct him. I'm sure your puppy will bounce back fine and I know it can be very hard to speak up in a situation like that especially when you aren't sure what's going on so please don't blame yourself (I've been there too with pushy club trainers with much worse repercussions I'm afraid). I used to get so upset and flustered trying to be firm about my boundaries that I would nearly cry sometimes but I realised quickly I was my dog's only advocate and that you are always within your right to tell a trainer to back off. Unfortunately though when you're in an environment that clashes so completely with how you approach training, it's hard to last very long without it getting to you. Even when my club let me do my own thing, being surrounded by people punishing their dogs and trainers advocating woeful techniques made me too upset to want to go anymore. If you're planning on doing further training after puppy preschool please ask for some suggestions through these forums or help on what to look out for when choosing a new place! It can be very hard navigating when you're unsure :)

Edited November 29, 2016 by dididog

[Two Best Dogs!]

I will reply in more depth tomorrow, and I'm sure others will too, but in brief - having trained my own dogs through puppy preschool to formal obedience, trained foster and shelter dogs and taught puppy classes - IMO there is no need to or benefit to using "no" or collar jerks to "show what you don't want" with young puppies, or any dog really.

There are heaps of things you can do with your puppy now to set up for a life long positive training relationship and none involve "dominating" or physical punishment.

As far as tools go, you can teach a dog to walk nicely using whatever tools suit you, it can be done on a flat collar but it can also be done on an appropriate harness. Ideally on either. I assume a "soft check" is a martingale or half check collar (part flat collar, part chain or fabric loop?), in my quite extensive experience these type of collars are great for stopping dogs that have a thick neck in comparison to the size of their head from slipping out of their collar if they are jumping around, but not of any other benefit in training, other than it's slightly easier to strangle the dog with than a flat (normal) collar, if that's something one wants to do...

Thank you. I appreciate your advice and look forward to any more you have to offer. The trainer took my puppy off me because he was moving around and making noises towards other dogs. She spoke harshly and pulled on his collar several times. He stopped dropped his head towards the floor and looked up at me with his eyes - sooo sad. He had no idea what he was being punished for. I thought about it later - neither did I - it wasn't as though he'd refused to follow an order and he was in a foreign environment with no precedent on how to behave. The more I think about it the more terrible I feel and hope I didn't start losing his trust because I let a stranger take him away and do that. If anyone should have been punished it should have been me for not telling him what to do (and I wasn't really sure myself) but if I'd been given a chance I would have called his name and told him to sit and I'm pretty sure that would have sorted the problem out.

What use is a correction if neither you or the puppy know what behaviour you are meant to change? Trainers are meant to be training you too, if you're both coming away from it upset and confused I would either talk it out with the trainer (if you'd think they'd listen) or start ignoring them and attending class for the socialisation benefit or find a new school all together.

(I am the same, if anyone is going to correct my dog it is me. and I decide what is "correction worthy" or not. It is a very small list, usually confined to moments of safety where priority is STOP RIGHT NOW. I make mistakes of course, get cranky. Try not to though.)

Young puppy necks are much too fragile for corrections and martingales, although same as Didi I use a martingale on my big adult dog because of the security and eventually the loose lead walking (ours is a work in progress ....). But personally I'd be using a wide flat until your dogs a bit bigger or it's at risk of slipping the collar.

I like Didi's suggestion of lots of games so you're the best thing ever. Be hard for them to take your dog and correct it if it's completely focused on you in hope of a ball or something.

Good luck

[Papillon Kisses]

Time to find a new puppy preschool. :)

[persephone]

I swear by the use of a nice wide/ or padded flat collar when training ..it's a way of communicating ..and it's the way I was taught, over 50 yrs ago ...

it's no use giving corrections if a dog hasn't learned a particular action ...

pups respond to fun/interaction and contact ...

I very much agree with dididog's comments about the communication aspect ...

I think you will find this article valuable :)

PUNISHING PUPPIES

Edited November 29, 2016 by persephone

[Tassie]

frazz ... I've posted a bit more in the thread in puppy... just wanted to say here .. as dididog said .. you are your dog's advocate, and you've obviously done quite a bit of reading and thinking about how you want training and life to be with your pup, so hard as it is ..trust your instincts. I would be trying to find a more suitable puppy school, but if you can't, please stay on the fringes of class and if your pup does get overwhelmed a bit by the situation, turn away and move away from the class a little bit to reduce the stress, and re-engage with your pup the way you want .. then reward, reward, reward attention to you. IMHO, harsh treatment such as the 'trainer' was doing, will simply confirm in the pup's mind that the presence of other dogs leads to unpleasant things happening .. not the message he needs to hear.

[Papillon Kisses]

frazz ... I've posted a bit more in the thread in puppy... just wanted to say here .. as dididog said .. you are your dog's advocate, and you've obviously done quite a bit of reading and thinking about how you want training and life to be with your pup, so hard as it is ..trust your instincts. I would be trying to find a more suitable puppy school, but if you can't, please stay on the fringes of class and if your pup does get overwhelmed a bit by the situation, turn away and move away from the class a little bit to reduce the stress, and re-engage with your pup the way you want .. then reward, reward, reward attention to you. IMHO, harsh treatment such as the 'trainer' was doing, will simply confirm in the pup's mind that the presence of other dogs leads to unpleasant things happening .. not the message he needs to hear.

Wonderful post. :)

[Scrappi&Monty]

Nope, no need to! With persistence, consistency, yummy treats/toys and sometimes a marker ("yes" or a clicker) you can teach anything. Ignore bad behaviour and reward good ones. Dogs are incredibly smart and even pick up on some things without reinforcement or punishment. My dogs know in and out just from me saying the word when we go inside or outside. Maybe look up on YouTube; Grisha Stewart, Zac George & Kikopup :) They have some helpful videos. If your trainer/club is teaching things you don't agree with, there's no need to do that. Find another more positive trainer if you feel that is best. I also have an amstaff (1year old) who was riddled with issues and had no training. Now he's such a good boy and is very obedient and much more polite. He is friends with about 4 dogs now so that's a good start ????