mowgliandme Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Hoping that someone here can point me in the right direction on how to “transfer the value of rewards”? :) I’ve been looking at the premack principle …but from my understanding it’s more of a “get your dog to something” to get “what they want”? How does that make them like doing the first thing more? I wait for my pup to sit before I open the front door for walks but I don’t think she likes sitting there any more than before? (she still does it because I don’t open the door otherwise) I have been increasing her value of praise a bit more (or at least that’s what I think I’m doing) by being more lively/excited with it, giving her a few pats and then giving a treat last. I did a lot of clicker training with her and was a bit too “click = good girl + food” boring so hoping to fix that http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2010/07/grow-the-value/ I found this article and want to apply it to loose leash walking but while she is great with any treats inside (except kibble), outside the house even high value foods are less interesting to her than sniffing all the grass. Should I be giving her a treat before sniffing the grass (what she wants to do most) on walks to increase her value for treats first…? Or should I get her to recall back to me when the leash gets tense before letting her sniff the grass (but then wouldn’t I sort of be encouraging her to pull if she back chains?) I’ve probably been doing the exact opposite, giving her treats for returning to me after sniffing the grass and walking by my side. I do want her to enjoy sniffing and exploring things :) (it is great when we are camping and in one spot) and i am giving her lots of short opportunities to do so on walks too! but she could quite happily spend 30 minutes just sniffing the grass outside each house which is not very fun/practical for going places/walking together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 When I think of value transfer I always think of agility and tugging. Both become so rewarding hard to see what is reinforcing what. Did u read the post below on Premack vrs nilif. Just to comment when I clicker train with a clicker I never speak. If no clicker then you can mark verbally but I don't normally praise. i would try to control the environment so that no sniffing happens unless you heel, then release to sniff. Like my kelpie who likes to run, you heel really nice and I might let u run. I would use a release to sniff rather than treats if you can. Never owned a sniffing dog so hope someone can advise you. I would say most of what I do is Premack. I ask her to do all sorts of things so she can get what she wants. So walking off lead I make her drop or even put her paws on a fence then I count down to the release word. She loves this game of waiting so much she quivers. So in this case the waiting is half the game. She will run off crazy but return to do it all again. I had to watch it cause I realised she was shaping me .....coming next to me while I was putting runners on, then if I told her to go, bolting outside. She did it a few times till I caught on. So I refuse to play in this instance. Think this is an example of transfer of value too. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 mowgliandme ... can't help specifically .. I have treat and tug oriented dogs. But 'permission' as a reward is fine .. provided it is a reward. So you would ask for a known/easy behaviour .. maybe a sit, mark with your normal reward marker ..click or yes .. then OK go sniff. After a reasonable sniff, I would stop, wait for the dog to look at you to see what's going on, then mark either for focus, or again for a specific simple behaviour, mark and release to sniff. So the sniff becomes dependent on you. But I could be a bit off the mark. If The Spotted Devil doesn't see this thread, I don't think a PM to her would be out of order. She's one of the experts on behaviour theory and practice in the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgliandme Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 I don’t mind transferring the value to tug either if that’s easier than food? :) Is it the same principle as the food one? I did read the thread but I cant find much info on how to apply it other than the article I linked? My puppy’s favourite thing in the whole world is finding and running away with socks (I have never chased her for a sock but a couple of people have lunged at her as their beloved sock was stolen and this seems to have been reinforcement enough!) Everything else…she loves to retrieve back to me. But with socks she’s all about dancing out of reach and throwing it in the air and doing zoomies! She is also very keen on tugging with a sock…(dont ask how i know this :p) I would like to transfer this sock love to something more useful like a tug or a toy (once she finishes teething)! But she is not anywhere near as interested in them as with the socks! Should I try to get a small soft cloth like tug toy? She’s going to be a fairly small dog so it doesn’t have to be super sturdy etc Or should I just let it go and reward her with (a specific set) of socks just for this …because they are clearly her favourite? I am not too concerned about sock stealing as they are "mostly out of reach" and otherwise she is almost too well behaved at home I am currently waiting for a bit of attention/eye contact (she automatically sits when she does this) before releasing her with a "go sniff", and while this works pretty well on our walks along the street on the pavement ...it doesnt work very well at the training oval which is all grass, so was hoping to build the value for food/tug/playing/something before trying that again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgliandme Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 Skip: Depending on what we are learning (if i need two hands) I use a verbal marker (yes) or the clicker - will praise dilute the value of these? Its just that with our other dog (before I knew about clicker training) I can just say "good boy" and give him a pat and he gets soo happy and tail waggly, even if there isnt always food. :) I think she is enjoying training more (more tail wags and excitement) since upping the praise and pats? I would like to increase the value of these so i can at least give her something when we arent training with food Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roova Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) Some simple articles from Susan Garrett on transferring value might give you some tips? Transfer of value Effective triggers and the transfer of value Respecting the value (Lots of comments on this one too) Edited October 25, 2016 by Roova Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 The marker . whether it is a clicker or a specific verbal .. is a bridge between the behaviour and the reward .. it's information that the behaviour was successful or met criteria and reward is coming. It should be a unique thing .. but of course can be followed up with verbal praise along with delivery of other rewards. For most dogs, especially in the learning phase, praise is not really reinforcing enough. I wouldn't be too quick to be trying to get rid of the food as a reward, although there's nothing wrong with using other reinforcers as well. The food (as long as it's not used as a bribe) is quick and easy and you can get in a lot of reps. Had to laugh about the socks .. but sure ..soft tuggies are great .. I'd just have them longer than a sock, though .. puppies aren't always all that accurate with their teeth ., oh wait.. senior dogs aren't either. :D Also, longer tuggies can be great for having the dog chase you and catch the tuggy while they're learning. Have a look at kikopup's Youtube channel to get some ideas about the mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Mowgliandme. Its great that praise is rewarding to your dog. Normally I never shut up so my dog probably gets a lot of praise. Probably not so much pats as our training is always on the go. And my working dog wants to work do not really wanting to stop for a pat. My trainer just thinks shaping with a clicker or verbal marker is a time for the dog to be thinking, as long as its effective, more important to be fun. If your dog likes tugging a sock just pad a footy sock. Whatever turns the dog on. Mine loves palm fronds do a bit of twisted frond or bark drives her crazy. bit messy thou. Know someone in agility gives her dog a leaf. Slightly obsessive stalking this but just for after a run. How cheap! What breed of dog is yours? Sounds like u r doing great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgliandme Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 Some simple articles from Susan Garrett on transferring value might give you some tips? Transfer of value Effective triggers and the transfer of value Respecting the value (Lots of comments on this one too) Thanks for those I couldnt find the other two when i searched for some reason! :) It just seems like they will start liking the "things that you ask for", "noises you make" or "toy/treat they get" before what they "originally want" - with enough repetitions they become associated together and the value transfers? The marker . whether it is a clicker or a specific verbal .. is a bridge between the behaviour and the reward .. it's information that the behaviour was successful or met criteria and reward is coming. It should be a unique thing .. but of course can be followed up with verbal praise along with delivery of other rewards. For most dogs, especially in the learning phase, praise is not really reinforcing enough. I wouldn't be too quick to be trying to get rid of the food as a reward, although there's nothing wrong with using other reinforcers as well. The food (as long as it's not used as a bribe) is quick and easy and you can get in a lot of reps. Had to laugh about the socks .. but sure ..soft tuggies are great .. I'd just have them longer than a sock, though .. puppies aren't always all that accurate with their teeth ., oh wait.. senior dogs aren't either. :D Also, longer tuggies can be great for having the dog chase you and catch the tuggy while they're learning. Have a look at kikopup's Youtube channel to get some ideas about the mechanics. I'm not planning on getting rid of the treats anytime soon :) but its more of a bridge for me "asking more more" like every time i click or say yes she definitely gets a treat, but when Im asking for multiple behaviours on variable reinforcement ratio (like two spins and a leg weave before one treat) thats when i want to be able to use praise a bit more to keep her motivated? I wouldn't use it for learning behaviours just for things she already knows very well :) I'd also hope to "one day" (in the very distant future) be able to go for a walk without so much roast chicken in my pocket So here's hoping that once i get a super soft tug toy and shes done teething, then I get her to interact with it a little bit, then play a little with a sock, then repeat until she likes the tug to the same as the the sock! I could always try without the sock first but we have 3 tuggy toys and she will play with them a little bit but she just doesnt "light up" like she does with the sock just yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgliandme Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) Mowgliandme. Its great that praise is rewarding to your dog. Normally I never shut up so my dog probably gets a lot of praise. Probably not so much pats as our training is always on the go. And my working dog wants to work do not really wanting to stop for a pat. My trainer just thinks shaping with a clicker or verbal marker is a time for the dog to be thinking, as long as its effective, more important to be fun. If your dog likes tugging a sock just pad a footy sock. Whatever turns the dog on. Mine loves palm fronds do a bit of twisted frond or bark drives her crazy. bit messy thou. Know someone in agility gives her dog a leaf. Slightly obsessive stalking this but just for after a run. How cheap! What breed of dog is yours? Sounds like u r doing great. Great idea - I didnt even consider padding a long sock! :D She is a Cobberdog or Australian Labradoodle (bit controversial on this forum) but she's just a small fluffy pupper that steals hearts and makes me do lots of research on how to make her super happy She is a very calm pup and doesn't have any of the working dog drive or love to work like yours I talk to her all the time too but she only recently started 'going all tail waggly for it' since I did it with clicker training, but now shes like that even when we arent training! I tried doing clicker training the traditional way (more thinking for her and me being silent way) but she wasn't much like the dogs in the youtube videos that just seem to love figuring it out until there was pats and praise so whatever works for her, i can make work for me! :) Edited October 25, 2016 by mowgliandme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) Clicker training is hard. The handlers often try to "help" the dog. The dog has to have that lightbulb moment where they get their actions can effect a reward. The dogs on YouTube may have learnt this concept already but for others you have to really break it down . I have just taught a shaping class one on one as the dogs owners try so hard but it is an older nervous aggressive BC. The dog was so fixated on just staring at the owner because all its life that is what it does.So I asked our best instructor to come look in. The dog was improving but it was slow. My dogs just get it as do many of the more trained dogs. So with a plank at first but any object really works tried to shape feet on. So how it came out is the BC sat and stared. With no movement from the owner at all! The BC eventually looked away. Clicked and reward. Did this half dozen times. Suddenly the dog had its light bulb moment and finally we got some behaviour. Dogs are great thou, the BC then began a jump on to the immovable owner, then feet on. So in just a few minutes, the BC was patterning jump on owner, look away or feet on plank equals reward. Bc's are so smart. So then we had to stop rewarding the first time on the plank if it immediately followed a jump up. Soon the pattern of jumping stopped and we got simple move onto plank. But no, shaping is not easy and it really helps to have someone help you. But shaping is a great game and using shaping really helps a nervous dog feel confident as they can make things happen. This probably doesn't help you but shaping is very interesting thou a skill indeed. Edited October 25, 2016 by skip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I'd say just keep doing what you are doing and don't worry too much about actively transferring the value of the treats. You will probably find it happens organically as you continue training and rehearsing behaviours and build up that reward history. Eventually the experience of communicating with you, figuring out what you want and getting a positive response, with or without a treat, becomes rewarding in itself. I tend to stick fairly strictly to a click or a yes = guaranteed treat but praise like "good girl" or "that's right!" or "yay!" also mean you did what I wanted you to, here's some fuss for you. And I'll use one or the other but not both together, and more mark and treat initially then more praise as the behaviour becomes more familiar, and to try and counter back chaining. Re the socks, i suspect it's probably the smell rather than the actual fabric, even washed socks must smell great to dogs. They remain favourite toys of my 7, 5.5 & nearly 5 year olds. So I dont know that you can make a specific sock the reward and avoid losing others, but a footy sock tug toy could still work, if all other socks are out of reach. Maybe wear the footy sock for a day first to make it extra interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 And actually, just thinking about it, I think being exciting and vocal is actually more useful in LLW that treats (and trust me I'm a huge treat user!) Food may not be more rewarding than sniffing but you can, so lots of vocalsing and direction changes and "yay you followed me when I bounced over here, lots of praise and pats". And then walk over to the grass to and let her sniff, then more "hey what exciting thing am I doing over here?" As far as LLW with treats, you can also do high frequency click + treat with throwing the treats on the ground just in front of her when she is walking nicely next to you, so she still gets the excitement of moving and sniffing to find the treat but also realisea that not pulling and paying attention to you is worthwhile and doesn't stop her from doing the things she really wants to do. That is how we would often start with untrained shelter dogs who had no concept of walking on lead, focusing on the person or getting rewarded, they would have no interest in looking at you for a treat but when interesting things starts bouncing around on the ground in front of them and they get to sniff them out it becomes a game, and they quickly learn that you are leading the game so it's worth paying attention to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgliandme Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 (edited) Im hoping that if i use a very bright yellow and blue long sock (which is meant to be the colours dogs see best?) that it will be different enough from my rather dark/black socks. I assume if i just ignore her behaviour with my socks and only play with this specific sock it may work ? I'll test it out! I have tried being super exciting, running around, waving my arms around and making noise (and giving treats, praise and pats) but it is apparently not as interesting as sniffing the grass after the first go or two and neither are treats...(thats why I want to learn how to transfer value to treats or something) shes pretty good walking at LLW on the footpath, at home, the shops and most places -its grassy ovals that i cant get much attention in at the moment! So hoping that transferring the value from sniffing to food/toys/praise may fix it a little bit as we go to training in a park Edited October 26, 2016 by mowgliandme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 (edited) What about trying an orient back to you game? Absolute Dogs posted a great video, but have taken it down now that the course they were advertising has started. Start in a low distraction environment (living room works well!) and throw a food reward on the ground away from you, when the dog gets the reward and starts to orient back to you, mark that and reward when the dog comes back to you (you can move away from the dog or run to help). You can then throw another food reward and do it again, also fun if you throw in the other direction. Once they will get the food and run right back to you, you can take it on the road and try in the yard, at the park etc. It is really cool and does work! Here is another version by Absolute Dogs but I found the other one with some added motion helped my dog better. It is the lower/second video. https://game.absolute-dogs.com/stop-it5w19jows Edited October 26, 2016 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgliandme Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 Thanks Kavik just tried it at home so far and she loves it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 (edited) I have tried being super exciting, running around, waving my arms around and making noise (and giving treats, praise and pats) but it is apparently not as interesting as sniffing the grass after the first go or two and neither are treats... So here is a large part of your problem as I see it. You are trying to LURE the dog. And the dog learns to compare what you've got and what he's got. You need to teach the dog to recall in a much lower distraction envirinment. Set the dog up for success. Give him an opportunity to make good choices. Then give him a clear choice. Build in distractions. You can't go from puppy school to university in one step! Edited October 27, 2016 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgliandme Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 I have tried being super exciting, running around, waving my arms around and making noise (and giving treats, praise and pats) but it is apparently not as interesting as sniffing the grass after the first go or two and neither are treats... So here is a large part of your problem as I see it. You are trying to LURE the dog. And the dog learns to compare what you've got and what he's got. You need to teach the dog to recall in a much lower distraction environment. Set the dog up for success. Give him an opportunity to make good choices. Then give him a clear choice. Build in distractions. You can't go from puppy school to university in one step! Thats what i want to do! :) And i love all of those concepts but I don't think I know how exactly to do that...? She has a perfect recall at home (inside, backyard, front yard, nature strip), she recalls away from chasing birds in the garden, away from mince the grass at home etc. I can just say come and she has an instant bounce and turn around, (I don't need to show her the treats/toys or run around before hand at all) I try to vary the rewards so its not always the same thing: playing with toys, chasing me a little, getting great treats and always lots of fuss How do I build in the distractions though? Is it just a matter of practising in different environments like the front of the house? Then my street, then a busier place? And what do I do if she doesnt come in a new environment... Do I then lure her? or run around trying to be more exciting? For example if we are walking around my empty street, and there is no dogs/people/cars etc just places to sniff and grass... She has great recall from sniffing in our front yard (but other dogs dont normally go in there) and even our front nature strip...how do i progress from there to set her up for success? :D Is it practising the same way one house at a time? Or something else? I'm here to learn! So would love any suggestions/books/ideas :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 As soon as you increase your distractions you need to go back and decrease your distance, so if at home she's recalling from across the yard when you are out in the street you start with her right next to you and reward her turning to look at you, then you let her get a step away, then a few steps etc etc as she becomes reliable at each stage. And you can do all the "being exciting" stuff even then, when you don't necessarily need to, because you want to build up this idea in her mind that no matter what else is going on, you are the best thing around! Another useful thing with recall is always being ready to reward when they voluntarily come to you, so when I'm training it initially any time the pup starts heading towards me I encourage them in and make it exciting and rewarding, even if I didn't actually need them to come to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 Think of it like a game. The aim of the game is to try to trick your dog into failing to respond to a cue correctly, but this game is rigged because dogs are so fun when they are winning, and your goal is to see your dog win. So, for the dog, they just have to decipher the cue and respond correctly. For you, the fun is in that moment when they are not quite sure what to do and they hesitate and look at you and you're like "Aha! I have you this time..." then they pull through and do the right thing and you're like "OMG! YOU'RE SO SMART!" and you get super proud of them and make a huge fuss. Make it hard, but not so hard they can't win. This takes a little calibrating. If your dog can't respond to your cue or gets confused or distracted, then you lose, and you just have to make it a bit easier next time. "Easier" means fewer stimuli to process, and/or less intense stimuli (stimulus is farther away, not as noisy or fast or big etc.). You get to "collect" achievements. My dog performed a down at home in the kitchen - yay! My dog performed a down in a quiet park - yay! My dog performed a down when a strange dog was on the next field - yay! My dog performed a down on a novel surface - yay! My dog performed a down while another dog walked past - yay! My dog performed a down on a rock or log - woot! My dog performed a down on a narrower log while my other dog was barking at her - hoorah! If you hit a bump and your dog can't perform in that scenario, then you've found a goal! This is exciting. You get to try to find a slightly easier version and try to get the behaviour in that scenario. And then try the harder one again. There will be more achievements to collect! And eventually you are finding it difficult to still find ways to try to trick your dog. When you have a really hard thing to tackle, then you ask for super easy behaviours, like a millisecond of almost-eye contact. My youngster has discovered the tremendous joy of chasing swallows. So, all she needs to do when there are swallows about to earn a treat is respond to her name or a verbal marker. And I keep the reward rate very high so she doesn't get the chance to fixate on the swallows too much. She is too busy looking at swallows and then turning to me to get a treat to stare at swallows and forget about treats. I wrote this article a few years ago to help clients with this concept: http://blog.creatureteacher.com.au/2013/12/building-reward-system-or-my-dog-wont.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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