Desexing My Pup

[Alibi]

After witnessing a male staffy with paraphimosis (next door neighbors bitch was in season) and subsequently chewing his penis off and the owners not having the money to save the dog, not all owners can handle the risks of entire dogs or even have the sense or knowledge what to do when things go wrong.

Work in a vet clinic for awhile and you will see lots and lots of owners who look at their pets as simply pets and have no desire to go the extra mile in regards of training or even simply making sure their 9month old bitch isn't mated by the dog down the road.

There is not I think a blanket yes or no possible for this topic as so many factors need to be weighed in for the individual situation.

[Purdie]

this is a good start for reading: http://www.naiaonlin...euterInDogs.pdf

and here the result of a recent study http://journals.plos...al.pone.0102241

Not really. Much of the research examining risks for certain types of cancers and joint disorders is breed-specific. For example, the second article you linked to is a study of labs and golden retrievers. Findings from studies such as this cannot be generalised to other breeds. So not very helpful for the OP who is getting an SBT.

There are more recent and more rigorous academic studies reviewing current literature which conclude that, in general, the benefits of desexing likely heavily outweigh the risks. That's without even considering the benefits of reducing the number of unwanted dogs being dumped at pounds.

if this is a valid argument, can someone explain to me why countries like Sweden where only less than 4% of male dogs and approx. 7% of bitches are de-sexed do not have any problems with overpopulation and pounds?...fact is that only USA and Australia is promoting de-sexing as the silver bullet for over-population, and fact is that obviously both countries have problems indicating that this strategy obviously doesn't work.

You need to look at what breeds are owned in Sweden compared to Australia and the US..

Are the most popular dog breeds in Sweden more pet friendly and sociable within the community than some more popular breeds in Australia or elsewhere.?

Or could it be that Swedes are better dog owners ?

It would be interesting to know if differences in breed choice or knowledge of dog ownership are a factor in dumpage rates within different countries.

[Roova]

I did some searching on owning a dog in Sweden and found this (clearly a few years old but possibly laws haven't changed much):

Swedish Dog Registry

A little over two years ago, Sweden passed a law declaring that all dogs must be marked and recorded. All dogs living in Sweden must be marked with a unique identification number that is linked to Agriculture’s central dog register. There must also be information about who owns the dog. The law was put in place because of problems with aggressive and dangerous dogs. The idea was that it should be easy to find out who owns a dog that acts aggressively or is a stray or seems ill.

According to law, the police, the provincial governments and Customs all have access to data in the registry.

The dog can be marked with a tattoo or a microchip but if you are going to travel with your dog, it must be marked with microchip. It’s easy to register the dog on the website and it only costs 70 kronor (approx. $10.50) to register a dog.

As an individual, you can search for a dog in a dog registry online services if you have the dog’s tattoo or microchip information. If the owner has blocked their information from being made public, you can only see the dog’s information. If you need contact information for a dog owner who does not appear, you can contact the Dog Register customer service at the Swedish Board of Agriculture.

Pet passport

Dogs, cats, and ferrets (!) that travel within the Eurpoean Union (EU) must have a pet passport. The veterinarian notes all treatments the pet has had in the passport. Before any a note to the passport, the veterinarian checks that the identity number (microchip) of the animal is the same as the one in the passport. This is also a double-check that the identity marking is still readable.

There are 165, 661 owners of mixed breeds in Sweden and 187, 933 mixed breed dogs registered.

There are 4563 owners of boxers and 5424 boxers.

Let’s compare that with a less-well known breed, the Bluetick Coonhound. There are just 5 owners of blueticks in Sweden and there are just five blueticks.

Here are the breed stats for Stockholm as of February 1, 2012:

Popularity Breed Number of dogs

1 MIXED BREED 6004

2 LABRADOR RETRIEVER 943

3 GERMAN SHEPHERD 725

4 JACK RUSSELL TERRIER 812

5 GOLDEN RETRIEVER 756

6 CHIHUAHUA (SHORTHAIR) 513

7 YORKSHIRE TERRIER 483

8 ROTTWEILER 509

9 CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIEL 384

10 MINIATURE POODLE 392

Here are the breed stats for Uppsala as of February 1, 2012:

Popularity Breed Number of dogs

1 MIXED BREED 1984

2 GERMAN SHEPHERD 404

3 GOLDEN RETRIEVER 359

4 LABRADOR RETRIEVER 316

5 JACK RUSSELL TERRIER 248

6 ROTTWEILER 198

7 ENGLISH SPRINGER SPANIEL 165

8 SHETLAND SHEEPDOG 139

9 DACSHUND 149

10 COCKER SPANIEL 127

[Purdie]

Popular dog breeds in Australia.

http://www.nova969.c...reeds-australia

Back to desexing ..

Back in the day a basic rule of thumb was ;Small breeds from 6 months ;medium to large;from12 months;Giant breeds from 18 months..

[Maddy]

If someone is struggling, and desexing means that they will keep and perservere with their pet instead of getting frustrated and giving them up to a shelter or rehoming them, then I see that as a good thing.

WOW!

The dog doesn't care if it is desexed or not.

do you think the Greyhounds care if they are doped or not?

Eta: ...or do dogs care if they are docked?...do they care if they are euthanized?...

This is close to the most profoundly stupid thing I've read from you recently Keep up the good work.

[corvus]

I think the jury is still out on desexing as far as science is concerned. Personally, I would hold off until the dog is probably fully grown. I think the evidence for doing that is strong. Of course, council requires registration at 6 months, and the cost of registering an entire dog if you are not a breeder is around the cost of desexing. Something to consider. I recently got my girl done at about 11 months. It was a decision based on the scientific literature (which is practically non-existent in small dogs), and some good old-fashioned over-thinking. I am perfectly comfortable with that decision. I weighed it all up quite carefully, and it was anything but rash or thoughtless.

[WoofnHoof]

I own desexed dogs for the same reason I own geldings (desexed horses), entires are not as easy to manage and if I don't need to breed I don't see the need to deal with extra hormones if I don't have to. Since the current research supports waiting until after 12 months that is what I will do next time (unless I want to show in which case I will have to keep it entire), but my sibe was done at 6 months and is now 10 with no apparent ill effects thus far so I am happy with that. There are pros and cons either way in terms of health so really it comes down to weighing up those pros and cons as they relate to your situation and the animal in question.

[Willem]

@ corvus & WoofnHoof:

I could use the same argumentation (...pros and cons, old fashion overthinking, no apparent ill effects....) wrt docking and cropping of tails and ears - so how do we justify that latter is classified as animal cruelty and heavily fined, and the 'docking and cropping' of balls and uterus - which is unquestionable a much more extensive surgical modification - is ok as it serves our convenience?...isn't that the pinnacle of hypocrisy?

[Willem]

...Pros & cons as in health issues

wrt your concerns about health issues you might also be interested in this thread http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/267474-vaccichecklooking-for-interested-dog-owners/.

There are statistics showing that the average live span of dogs declined over the last years by approx. 11%, despite new science, better (?) food and better (???) medical care, and there are strong hints that over-vaccination and de-sexing play a major part in the shorter life span. http://www.doglistener.co.uk/why-are-our-dogs-dying-so-early

[mackiemad]

Willem - docking usually wasn't done under anaesthetic, with pain killers etc and desexing is. Does that give you at least one significant difference?

Also desexing is done for a myriad of reasons and docking, whilst traditionally done for a myriad of reasons, was assumed to be largely image motivated by the time it was banned.

And yes, my dog is desexed, I chose to desexed him at around 6 months (mini schnauzer). To the OP, do whatever works for you, if I had a larger breed I would probably wait until it's fully grown.

[Willem]

Willem - docking usually wasn't done under anaesthetic, with pain killers etc and desexing is. Does that give you at least one significant difference?

Also desexing is done for a myriad of reasons and docking, whilst traditionally done for a myriad of reasons, was assumed to be largely image motivated by the time it was banned.

And yes, my dog is desexed, I chose to desexed him at around 6 months (mini schnauzer). To the OP, do whatever works for you, if I had a larger breed I would probably wait until it's fully grown.

well, de-sexing a male wasn't done always under anesthetic too - so where is the difference?

...the point is that even if I would dock or crop my dog under anesthetic, all done by a vet (yes, I know I wouldn't find a vet to do it if there is no emergency) and with no more pain involved as it is associated with de-sexing, it is still classified as animal cruelty while cropping / docking the balls / uterus are not.

[kayla1]

...Pros & cons as in health issues

wrt your concerns about health issues you might also be interested in this thread http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/267474-vaccichecklooking-for-interested-dog-owners/.

There are statistics showing that the average live span of dogs declined over the last years by approx. 11%, despite new science, better (?) food and better (???) medical care, and there are strong hints that over-vaccination and de-sexing play a major part in the shorter life span. http://www.doglistener.co.uk/why-are-our-dogs-dying-so-early

There is nothing in that link to support your claims.

The link you have provided is an opinion piece, not an academic study. Furthermore, if you go to the original source, you'll see that the results are descriptive statistics only. So no conclusions can be drawn about any associations with desexing etc. You also cannot conclude that there is a difference in lifespan; as is noted, the surveys are not comparable because there were substantial differences in the way they were conducted.

This is why you need to review and understand the literature before using it in an attempt to support your argument.

[Willem]

...Pros & cons as in health issues

wrt your concerns about health issues you might also be interested in this thread http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/267474-vaccichecklooking-for-interested-dog-owners/.

There are statistics showing that the average live span of dogs declined over the last years by approx. 11%, despite new science, better (?) food and better (???) medical care, and there are strong hints that over-vaccination and de-sexing play a major part in the shorter life span. http://www.doglistener.co.uk/why-are-our-dogs-dying-so-early

There is nothing in that link to support your claims.

The link you have provided is an opinion piece, not an academic study. Furthermore, if you go to the original source, you'll see that the results are descriptive statistics only. So no conclusions can be drawn about any associations with desexing etc. You also cannot conclude that there is a difference in lifespan; as is noted, the surveys are not comparable because there were substantial differences in the way they were conducted.

This is why you need to review and understand the literature before using it in an attempt to support your argument.

we still waiting for your 'scientific sources' you are still holding back (see post #44)- and I can conclude, leave this with me, sometimes you just have to put one and one together. I guess you would have also told people who claimed already 40 years ago that smoking wasn't healthy that they are wrong based on the arguments of the all mighty tobacco industry.

Eta this quote from the link:

Neutering removes or seriously reduces three of the most important hormones in any mammal. Oestrogen, Progesterone, and Testosterone. These are not optional extras like a satnav. They are vital components for a healthy, well-balanced dog. Think and research long and hard before ever having this procedure done

three of the most important hormones - before I would do anything that would compromise the control of those hormones I for sure want to see the proof that there are no negative side effects when I gamble with the outcome of thousands years of evolution, and not the other way around. And if there are any serious hints indicating serious side effects, yes I take them serious...and the recent Golden Retriever and Lab studies are scientific studies that can't be ignored.

Eta ....and wrt the 'academic horse' your are riding: I worked nearly 10 years for the American Battelle Institute as a scientist - I think I'm pretty capable of evaluating all kind of scientific and not so scientific information.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Willem

[BlaznHotAussies]

Personally every time my bitches come into season I am tempted to desex my male dog (but alas I show him) because he loses the plot. I keep them as separated as humanly possible, exercised separately, male dog goes to work with husband (on the farm) for the day & he's in his crate in the house while I exercise the bitches outside.

He's a whiny hormonal mess. How is that better than not being a slave to hormones?

Note - he's still well behaved and will do what he's told, but he gets a really crazy look in his eye & can't sit still/relax

[Willem]

Personally every time my bitches come into season I am tempted to desex my male dog (but alas I show him) because he loses the plot. I keep them as separated as humanly possible, exercised separately, male dog goes to work with husband (on the farm) for the day & he's in his crate in the house while I exercise the bitches outside.

He's a whiny hormonal mess. How is that better than not being a slave to hormones?

Note - he's still well behaved and will do what he's told, but he gets a really crazy look in his eye & can't sit still/relax

if he is one of the unlucky ones that get an early cancer due to de-sexing or joint and ligament problems he won't be relaxed either.

[angelsun]

Personally every time my bitches come into season I am tempted to desex my male dog (but alas I show him) because he loses the plot. I keep them as separated as humanly possible, exercised separately, male dog goes to work with husband (on the farm) for the day & he's in his crate in the house while I exercise the bitches outside.

He's a whiny hormonal mess. How is that better than not being a slave to hormones?

Note - he's still well behaved and will do what he's told, but he gets a really crazy look in his eye & can't sit still/relax

if he is one of the unlucky ones that get an early cancer due to de-sexing or joint and ligament problems he won't be relaxed either.

Can you quote your source for this comment? I'm curious to read a validated paper on the connection between desexing and joint/ligament issues. I'm also really keen to see the study showing desexing and early cancer connections.

[twodoggies2001]

Personally every time my bitches come into season I am tempted to desex my male dog (but alas I show him) because he loses the plot. I keep them as separated as humanly possible, exercised separately, male dog goes to work with husband (on the farm) for the day & he's in his crate in the house while I exercise the bitches outside.

He's a whiny hormonal mess. How is that better than not being a slave to hormones?

Note - he's still well behaved and will do what he's told, but he gets a really crazy look in his eye & can't sit still/relax

if he is one of the unlucky ones that get an early cancer due to de-sexing or joint and ligament problems he won't be relaxed either.

Our family has always had male dogs and all have been desexed. To be honest they have all passed in old age and none of them have had cancer as you state Willem. Me personally, would always have my dogs, either male or female desexed because, even though I buy them through registered breeders, have no desire to show or breed with them. The decision is ours as a family and I envisage this decision will continue

[BlaznHotAussies]

Personally every time my bitches come into season I am tempted to desex my male dog (but alas I show him) because he loses the plot. I keep them as separated as humanly possible, exercised separately, male dog goes to work with husband (on the farm) for the day & he's in his crate in the house while I exercise the bitches outside.

He's a whiny hormonal mess. How is that better than not being a slave to hormones?

Note - he's still well behaved and will do what he's told, but he gets a really crazy look in his eye & can't sit still/relax

if he is one of the unlucky ones that get an early cancer due to de-sexing or joint and ligament problems he won't be relaxed either.

Please refer to the part of my post that says I will actually desex him? I'm tempted but I'm not actually going to. It crosses my mind the two times a year the bitches send him looney.

I've heard of more entire dogs & stallions with joint & ligament problems in their back from being a breeding animal. I've also heard of more issues with testicular and/or prostate cancer occurring in entire dogs & stallions as they get older.

[BlaznHotAussies]

And Willem please work on not assuming you know more than everyone on this forum. There are a lot of very experienced breeders, rescuers & vets on here, it would do you good to open yourself to learning instead of just forcing your opinion down people's throats.

[Willem]

Personally every time my bitches come into season I am tempted to desex my male dog (but alas I show him) because he loses the plot. I keep them as separated as humanly possible, exercised separately, male dog goes to work with husband (on the farm) for the day & he's in his crate in the house while I exercise the bitches outside.

He's a whiny hormonal mess. How is that better than not being a slave to hormones?

Note - he's still well behaved and will do what he's told, but he gets a really crazy look in his eye & can't sit still/relax

if he is one of the unlucky ones that get an early cancer due to de-sexing or joint and ligament problems he won't be relaxed either.

Can you quote your source for this comment? I'm curious to read a validated paper on the connection between desexing and joint/ligament issues. I'm also really keen to see the study showing desexing and early cancer connections.

see post #42...

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055937

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102241

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/vizsla_javma_study.pdf

http://saova.org/articles/Early%20SN%20and%20Behavior.pdf?hc_location=ufi

Eta: here a recent one (May 2016) about the impacts on German Shepherds http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/vms3.34/full

Edited October 19, 2016 by Willem