Desexing My Pup

[Kavik]

If I continue to have too many challenges, yes I will retire him from agility and try another sport. Would be a pity though because when he works well he is really spectacular. I certainly think desexing is worth a go before I do that though. I am spending my time on the basics but I will be most unhappy if I never get past that. If that happens I will retire him and start again with another dog.

Frustration isn't an excuse to surrender s dog, but it is a reason people do it. When you have been reduced to tears due to your dog's behaviour and you don't enjoy them, people give them up.

your frustration seems to be fueled by your ambitions - pretty hard to train a dog if frustration and associated impatience dictate the handlers attitude and body language. Your dog doesn't know on which agility level you want to be with him in the near future, and he doesn't care - he just want to enjoy the time (whether it is training or something else), and he definitely won't be motivated to work for you if he senses your frustration. So instead of thinking about manipulating the dog's hormone system it might be interesting to find out where a total change in your attitude in training would get you.

I am anything but impatient lol. If I was impatient I would have given up long ago. I have been enduring "why isn't he in the ring yet?" And "when will he be in the ring" comments from other competitors for 2 years now.

Yes I want to compete. Nothing wrong with that. I have done a stack of foundation work with him. Yes we will go back to basics(again) in the holidays. That certainly doesn't make me impatient lol.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Kavik

[Willem]

Hi I will be getting an English staffy puppy very soon as a house pet

Is it better to desex him or leave him as he is ? and what age is best to desex him if so ?

(I don't plan on using him to breed)

Just asking cause I heard there are some pros to leaving him intact and cons and also pros/cons in desexing him

Also heard if I don't want him to be too tall then I should leave him till he is older and mature then desex him cause if I desex at a young age he will grow bigger than usual .. that's what I heard on the internet can someone correct me if I'm wrong .. so confused

Many thanks guys!

would you have bought him if the breeder would have told you that there are some issues with this pup as he was born without balls?...or do you think this would be a defect compromising the value of the dog?

Do you also consider to crop his ears and dock his tail because there are 'some pros and cons' in it?

Why do you think de-sexing would improve the value of your dog?...if you want a de-sexed dog, why not getting one from the pounds?

Pros & cons as in health issues

this is a good start for reading: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

and here the result of a recent study http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102241

Edited October 16, 2016 by Willem

[kayla1]

this is a good start for reading: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

and here the result of a recent study http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102241

Not really. Much of the research examining risks for certain types of cancers and joint disorders is breed-specific. For example, the second article you linked to is a study of labs and golden retrievers. Findings from studies such as this cannot be generalised to other breeds. So not very helpful for the OP who is getting an SBT.

There are more recent and more rigorous academic studies reviewing current literature which conclude that, in general, the benefits of desexing likely heavily outweigh the risks. That's without even considering the benefits of reducing the number of unwanted dogs being dumped at pounds.

[Willem]

this is a good start for reading: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

and here the result of a recent study http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102241

Not really. Much of the research examining risks for certain types of cancers and joint disorders is breed-specific. For example, the second article you linked to is a study of labs and golden retrievers. Findings from studies such as this cannot be generalised to other breeds. So not very helpful for the OP who is getting an SBT.

There are more recent and more rigorous academic studies reviewing current literature which conclude that, in general, the benefits of desexing likely heavily outweigh the risks. That's without even considering the benefits of reducing the number of unwanted dogs being dumped at pounds.

...and you will enlighten us and publish the links to those 'more recent scientific studies' that contradicts the findings of the papers I provided?

[Dave73]

I lost a GSD at 5 to Hemangiosarcomma which is not uncommon in the breed but not usually so young . While trying desperately trying to find a way to help her and speaking to some of the best animal oncologists both here and overseas the common thread was early desexing is not good for any dog. Unfortunately my girl lost her battle 18 months after the stage 3 tumour turning up in her back leg.

Upon looking at getting another dog a female Cane Corso and talking again with the contacts i had made they pleaded with me to desex no earlier than 12 months, but preferably 18 months - 2 years.I had a issue as some breeders were desexing at 8 weeks. All these specialist vets here and overseas would not desex there own dogs before 12 months. Most were after there 2nd birthday.

Anyway my girl got done at 13 months and she has a litter mate and she is totally different. . Her sister is very lanky and she was desexed at 5 months but my girl is solid a bit shorter but way thicker more to the breed standard. Bigger head etc.

That was the selling point for me when these vets and they are specialists in oncology, internal medicine, joint experts etc from Australia, Europe and the states not your regular vet they would not desex there own animals so young.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Dave73

[Willem]

this is a good start for reading: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

and here the result of a recent study http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102241

Not really. Much of the research examining risks for certain types of cancers and joint disorders is breed-specific. For example, the second article you linked to is a study of labs and golden retrievers. Findings from studies such as this cannot be generalised to other breeds. So not very helpful for the OP who is getting an SBT.

There are more recent and more rigorous academic studies reviewing current literature which conclude that, in general, the benefits of desexing likely heavily outweigh the risks. That's without even considering the benefits of reducing the number of unwanted dogs being dumped at pounds.

if this is a valid argument, can someone explain to me why countries like Sweden where only less than 4% of male dogs and approx. 7% of bitches are de-sexed do not have any problems with overpopulation and pounds?...fact is that only USA and Australia is promoting de-sexing as the silver bullet for over-population, and fact is that obviously both countries have problems indicating that this strategy obviously doesn't work.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Willem

[kayla1]

this is a good start for reading: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

and here the result of a recent study http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102241

Not really. Much of the research examining risks for certain types of cancers and joint disorders is breed-specific. For example, the second article you linked to is a study of labs and golden retrievers. Findings from studies such as this cannot be generalised to other breeds. So not very helpful for the OP who is getting an SBT.

There are more recent and more rigorous academic studies reviewing current literature which conclude that, in general, the benefits of desexing likely heavily outweigh the risks. That's without even considering the benefits of reducing the number of unwanted dogs being dumped at pounds.

...and you will enlighten us and publish the links to those 'more recent scientific studies' that contradicts the findings of the papers I provided?

I'm not going to do your research for you. I have enough of my own to do. :laugh:

Also, I'm not going to post articles that I have access to as an academic, as not all are publicly available.

Before taking such a strong stance against desexing, it would be beneficial to do a more thorough and objective review of the academic literature beforehand (you will find relevant articles if you do this). Then if you decide to post study findings in an attempt to support your argument, you need to ensure that you have a good understanding of the study methodologies/limitations etc.

[JulesP]

this is a good start for reading: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

and here the result of a recent study http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102241

Not really. Much of the research examining risks for certain types of cancers and joint disorders is breed-specific. For example, the second article you linked to is a study of labs and golden retrievers. Findings from studies such as this cannot be generalised to other breeds. So not very helpful for the OP who is getting an SBT.

There are more recent and more rigorous academic studies reviewing current literature which conclude that, in general, the benefits of desexing likely heavily outweigh the risks. That's without even considering the benefits of reducing the number of unwanted dogs being dumped at pounds.

if this is a valid argument, can someone explain to me why countries like Sweden where only less than 4% of male dogs and approx. 7% of bitches are de-sexed do not have any problems with overpopulation and pounds?...fact is that only USA and Australia is promoting de-sexing as the silver bullet for over-population, and fact is that obviously both countries have problems indicating that this strategy obviously doesn't work.

Perhaps because Sweden has super strict pet ownership laws and dogs are expensive to buy there.

[Willem]

I lost a GSD at 5 to Hemangiosarcomma which is not uncommon in the breed but not usually so young . While trying desperately trying to find a way to help her and speaking to some of the best animal oncologists both here and overseas the common thread was early desexing is not good for any dog. Unfortunately my girl lost her battle 18 months after the stage 3 tumour turning up in her back leg.

Upon looking at getting another dog a female Cane Corso and talking again with the contacts i had made they pleaded with me to desex no earlier than 12 months, but preferably 18 months - 2 years.I had a issue as some breeders were desexing at 8 weeks. All these specialist vets here and overseas would not desex there own dogs before 12 months. Most were after there 2nd birthday.

Anyway my girl got done at 13 months and she has a litter mate and she is totally different. . Her sister is very lanky and she was desexed at 5 months but my girl is solid a bit shorter but way thicker more to the breed standard. Bigger head etc.

That was the selling point for me when these vets and they are specialists in oncology, internal medicine, joint experts etc from Australia, Europe and the states not your regular vet they would not desex there own animals so young.

at this stage no scientist can tell you exactly what impacts early de-sexing has on a dog - all the hints point to negative side effects, and assuming that there is any positive side effect is just gambling with the health of the dog. We know that the right hormone levels are vital for the mood / behaviour and immune system of a dog. In stress situation the adrenaline level is up, causing mammals to become less pain sensitive and increase overall performance, and we know roughly how the thyroid level effects the mood. We know that the testosterone level increases significantly in a young growing dog and that it will reach a peak after 6 to 18 month (approx., depending on individual dog and breed) if we don't cut his balls off before it happens.

We know that the hormone levels vary over times and for different development periods, some hormones level will change even through the day. These hormone patterns are quite complex and they change all the time, one hormone level goes up, the other decreases, following a perfect program designed by thousands of years of evolution. If we interfere with this program without even knowing the details, we risk negative impacts regarding the dogs' immune system, reproductive system and normal behaviour.

Those hormone patterns will vary even more during the development of a young dog when compared to a matured dog. We know that young dogs go through fear phases, and these fear phases are likely linked to specific hormone patterns - however, no one knows the details. So how can anyone make sure that the date of de-sexing a young dog doesn't interfere negatively with a fear phase?....no one can. There is very strong evidence (e.g. Viszla study) that early de-sexing increases the risk of anxiety in dogs (separation anxiety, fear of thunder, fear of humans and dogs leading to fear aggression etc.) significantly, and this is no surprise considering the importance of fear phases for the development of a dog.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Willem

[Willem]

this is a good start for reading: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

and here the result of a recent study http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102241

Not really. Much of the research examining risks for certain types of cancers and joint disorders is breed-specific. For example, the second article you linked to is a study of labs and golden retrievers. Findings from studies such as this cannot be generalised to other breeds. So not very helpful for the OP who is getting an SBT.

There are more recent and more rigorous academic studies reviewing current literature which conclude that, in general, the benefits of desexing likely heavily outweigh the risks. That's without even considering the benefits of reducing the number of unwanted dogs being dumped at pounds.

...and you will enlighten us and publish the links to those 'more recent scientific studies' that contradicts the findings of the papers I provided?

I'm not going to do your research for you. I have enough of my own to do. :laugh:

Also, I'm not going to post articles that I have access to as an academic, as not all are publicly available.

Before taking such a strong stance against desexing, it would be beneficial to do a more thorough and objective review of the academic literature beforehand (you will find relevant articles if you do this). Then if you decide to post study findings in an attempt to support your argument, you need to ensure that you have a good understanding of the study methodologies/limitations etc.

that's a strange advice from someone hiding his/her sources of knowledge...you don't have to copy the articles, just provide the link to the published scientific study here.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Willem

[Dave73]

I did go in depth with these specialist especially overseas and there opinion is and this is on there own studies with dogs with cancer especially that the younger they are desexed the more prone they are to get cancer and to get it at a younger age, especially Rottweilers with bone cancer. I spoke to probably 4 oncologist in Australia and two in Europe who were researching Haemangiosarcoma in GSD's specifically and 3 in the US and they all had the same advise that desexing to young is not beneficial to a dogs health both physically and mentally.

My GSD was desexed at 6 months but that was not the cause of her cancer heamangio is believed to be a hereditary cancer and really attacks certain breeds Golden retrievers , GSD, Bernese Mountain dogs etc, etc. But it was bought up regulary in conversations with these experts about desexing early.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Dave73

[Willem]

this is a good start for reading: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

and here the result of a recent study http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102241

Not really. Much of the research examining risks for certain types of cancers and joint disorders is breed-specific. For example, the second article you linked to is a study of labs and golden retrievers. Findings from studies such as this cannot be generalised to other breeds. So not very helpful for the OP who is getting an SBT.

There are more recent and more rigorous academic studies reviewing current literature which conclude that, in general, the benefits of desexing likely heavily outweigh the risks. That's without even considering the benefits of reducing the number of unwanted dogs being dumped at pounds.

if this is a valid argument, can someone explain to me why countries like Sweden where only less than 4% of male dogs and approx. 7% of bitches are de-sexed do not have any problems with overpopulation and pounds?...fact is that only USA and Australia is promoting de-sexing as the silver bullet for over-population, and fact is that obviously both countries have problems indicating that this strategy obviously doesn't work.

Perhaps because Sweden has super strict pet ownership laws and dogs are expensive to buy there.

wouldn't that be an even greater motivation for mass production?...with all the entire dogs available?

[JulesP]

wouldn't that be an even greater motivation for mass production?...with all the entire dogs available?

Their dog breeding laws are super strict.

[Willem]

I did go in depth with these specialist especially overseas and there opinion is and this is on there own studies with dogs with cancer especially that the younger they are desexed the more prone they are to get cancer and to get it at a younger age, especially Rottweilers with bone cancer. I spoke to probably 4 oncologist in Australia and two in Europe who were researching Haemangiosarcoma in GSD's specifically and 3 in the US and they all had the same advise that desexing to young is not beneficial to a dogs health both physically and mentally.

My GSD was desexed at 6 months but that was not the cause of her cancer heamangio is believed to be a hereditary cancer and really attacks certain breeds Golden retrievers , GSD, Bernese Mountain dogs etc, etc. But it was bought up regulary in conversations with these experts about desexing early.

unfortunately, staffies are also a breed prone to cancers http://www.ufaw.org.uk/dogs/staffordshire-bull-terrier-mast-cell-tumour

[Willem]

wouldn't that be an even greater motivation for mass production?...with all the entire dogs available?

Their dog breeding laws are super strict.

and the Swedish dogs know this so they behave differently :D ?

[JulesP]

wouldn't that be an even greater motivation for mass production?...with all the entire dogs available?

Their dog breeding laws are super strict.

and the Swedish dogs know this so they behave differently :D ?

That is just a silly comment. I will only respond to you if you stop trolling.

[Willem]

wouldn't that be an even greater motivation for mass production?...with all the entire dogs available?

Their dog breeding laws are super strict.

and the Swedish dogs know this so they behave differently :D ?

That is just a silly comment. I will only respond to you if you stop trolling.

no it is not. I only want to indicate that at the end it is up to the owner - the Swedish dog owners might have different motivations and drivers behind them, but at the end they demonstrate quite convincingly that you don't have to de-sex your dog to control over population. Conversely we can have the strictest breeding laws here in Australia, but if the puppy farmers and unregistered breeders don't do the right thing, nothing will have any impact on over population.

[tdierikx]

It's not so much about those not doing the right thing Willem... it's about making all these laws and regulations and then not policing them effectively...

Anyways... it comes down to individual owner decision as to whether they desex their dog at whatever age they feel is appropriate. There are pros and cons on both sides of that debate, and we should leave it at that, OK?

T.

[Willem]

It's not so much about those not doing the right thing Willem... it's about making all these laws and regulations and then not policing them effectively...

Anyways... it comes down to individual owner decision as to whether they desex their dog at whatever age they feel is appropriate. There are pros and cons on both sides of that debate, and we should leave it at that, OK?

T.

if 'we leave it at that' I'm concerned we soon will have laws like in SA and ACT, and look what's happening now in VIC...and then there is no individual owner decision anymore! The more 'de-sexing' becomes a normal procedure or even a first choice of surgical modification, the sooner we will have the same laws here in NSW.

[tdierikx]

We already have cheaper registrations for desexed pets... and registration should be paid by the 6 month of age mark... not that you'd know it by the number of entire unchipped and unregistered pets that end up in the pound system.

Again, it comes down to policing the laws and regulations... and that certainly ain't happening...

T.