moosmum Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) I have a 4 month old beagle baby here which - what a disgusting thought- I intend to have a litter or two with her. As I watch her run and play and sleep at my feet I cant help but smile. I know that every single ancestor she has was bred by me,held by me, loved by me,appreciated for their qualities for 21 generations. Ive served my apprenticeship made some mistakes and I don't expect that many will get what it really does take to consistently breed dogs generation after generation that enrich people's lives, that don't need to see a vet every other month and live until their mid teens [some older] there are lots of things Ive done in my life I look back on and wish I hadn't done or that I had done differently but Im proud of what Ive done and learned with my dogs and it saddens me that the over regulation has taken away the ability of those who come behind me to know how great it feels. Similar story here, though not so many generations. Pups from my current girl would be 4th generation. My kids grew up with her ancestors. Her Dam is still as active as the Tentie pup shes helping raise at 10/11 y.o and only seen the vet for spey, chip and vaccs. Ditto with her G.D who is also still going strong as one of my kids dogs at 13. I never wanted to breed because I prefered to limit my numbers to what I personaly wanted and needed. I could no longer find dogs that fit the job and situation I depended on them for. When I did after a total of 10 years search, I bred them because they were worth continuing. And kept them going because the results are too, I can't afford 10 year searches and mistakes, and because buyers ask me to because they have said they have never experienced a dog like them. It was nice to contribute to those higher expectations. Expectations that I attributed to their pedigree heritage, and benefited a pedigrees status by reafirming its intent and purpose. My kids want to keep them going so they and their kids can have dogs that live up the expectations they have learned to hold and value. I have only kept one entire female at any time, and kept her replacement when needed. You can continue. Its been made near impossible for me to source the male to breed this girl with before the last season I'm willing to risk on a 1st litter. Known buyers are waiting. I watch my 20 month old granddaughter playing with this huge dog, trying to teach her to dance and taking her blanket to the dogs bed for naps. She will miss that. Edited October 21, 2016 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) Agreed - perhaps its time for a Dog Breeders Union. Yes, that might be a start. Dog knows we aren't getting anywhere concrete now. We wont either if they all want to see only how it affects them as one group and they continue with their arrogance of being untouchable. Effectively now Vicdogs have said to their members who own 10 or more dogs - sucko because if they defend that then they are accused of supporting puppy farms. Why should a low life dog breeder care about their human rights if they are doing the right thing ? The right thing defined by animal rights. Who will stand up for them when their Brachy head breeds are banned because alone with their current defence arguments they don't stand a chance. And that one doesn't even need parliament - all they have to do is add it to the list they started with Scottish fold cats. They will suck that up too as a 'different' representation of their membership. One thats no longer fit for the self image of a K.C member. While The K.Cs can't recognize diversity they can't support it. If you won't support diversity, you are a barrier to diversity. Which is why we are in this situation that can only get tighter while WE accept a representation from from a group that demands diversity not be recognized. They can't continue to claim they represent the interests of all dog owners if they can't recognize all dogs. They can't expect members to make use of protocols to out cross as a means of improvement, when needed, if their own statement is that such an out cross is not recognized. If you push the idea long enough that breeding dogs is a pursuit for professionals backed by 'standards' only, it should be no suprise when that pursuit becomes industrialized. So we are now an industry. It should be representative. I could support a Union. Maybe over time that could see dogs, with diverse representation, return to some semblance of a community concern with hobby interests proving best results. If you can't support diversity, you can't defend anything that threatens the identity of that statement. You are right Asal, re; professional support. Maybe a broader union definition than dog breeders? Actually ALL dog owners need to stand and be counted, I had mine as pets all my life, My Dads dog Blue guarded my cot when I was born and I never went anywhere alone, he was always beside me, it was not until I was nearly 30 I actually bred a litter. All dog owners should have the right to decide if they only want to have theirs as a pet or if they may one day decide to keep their dogs line going. Our politicians want to take that right away. There is not a dog born today that is not the legacy of those who loved and bred its parents and ancestors before it. AR want to break that chain from the past to the future. Yup. Maybe we need a companion Animal enthusiasts Union. As an errosion of rights, at its most basic, we are being denied the right to choose our own companions and act in their best interests, as individuals in our own environments. We are forced to source from a 'standard' list of acceptable candidates and keep them in 'standard' conditions deemed acceptable, but not adaptable. So when either is no longer acceptable in a changing environment, they are gone. This is NOT responsibility. Its a denial of any ability to respond. Its the only reason A.R has any influence worth mention. This is what predictability as the only valid goal does. It removes the ability to respond any other way than the Standard. It comes from recognizing nothing out side of a standard. You lose responsibility. If you lose the ability to respond you lose the ability to adapt. The 'Standard' of available response can only shrink. Edited October 22, 2016 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 (edited) Agreed - perhaps its time for a Dog Breeders Union. Yes, that might be a start. Dog knows we aren't getting anywhere concrete now. We wont either if they all want to see only how it affects them as one group and they continue with their arrogance of being untouchable. Effectively now Vicdogs have said to their members who own 10 or more dogs - sucko because if they defend that then they are accused of supporting puppy farms. Why should a low life dog breeder care about their human rights if they are doing the right thing ? The right thing defined by animal rights. Who will stand up for them when their Brachy head breeds are banned because alone with their current defence arguments they don't stand a chance. And that one doesn't even need parliament - all they have to do is add it to the list they started with Scottish fold cats. They will suck that up too as a 'different' representation of their membership. One thats no longer fit for the self image of a K.C member. While The K.Cs can't recognize diversity they can't support it. If you won't support diversity, you are a barrier to diversity. Which is why we are in this situation that can only get tighter while WE accept a representation from from a group that demands diversity not be recognized. They can't continue to claim they represent the interests of all dog owners if they can't recognize all dogs. They can't expect members to make use of protocols to out cross as a means of improvement, when needed, if their own statement is that such an out cross is not recognized. If you push the idea long enough that breeding dogs is a pursuit for professionals backed by 'standards' only, it should be no suprise when that pursuit becomes industrialized. So we are now an industry. It should be representative. I could support a Union. Maybe over time that could see dogs, with diverse representation, return to some semblance of a community concern with hobby interests proving best results. If you can't support diversity, you can't defend anything that threatens the identity of that statement. You are right Asal, re; professional support. Maybe a broader union definition than dog breeders? Actually ALL dog owners need to stand and be counted, I had mine as pets all my life, My Dads dog Blue guarded my cot when I was born and I never went anywhere alone, he was always beside me, it was not until I was nearly 30 I actually bred a litter. All dog owners should have the right to decide if they only want to have theirs as a pet or if they may one day decide to keep their dogs line going. Our politicians want to take that right away. There is not a dog born today that is not the legacy of those who loved and bred its parents and ancestors before it. AR want to break that chain from the past to the future. Yup. Maybe we need a companion Animal enthusiasts Union. As an errosion of rights, at its most basic, we are being denied the right to choose our own companions and act in their best interests, as individuals in our own environments. We are forced to source from a 'standard' list of acceptable candidates and keep them in 'standard' conditions deemed acceptable, but not adaptable. So when either is no longer acceptable in a changing environment, they are gone. This is NOT responsibility. Its a denial of any ability to respond. Its the only reason A.R has any influence worth mention. This is what predictability as the only valid goal does. It removes the ability to respond any other way than the Standard. It comes from recognizing nothing out side of a standard. You lose responsibility. If you lose the ability to respond you lose the ability to adapt. The 'Standard' of available response can only shrink. Hey thats a neat idea. Anyone think of any more ideas to add? I am telling my friends what we have been talking about here and they are very interested, had never thought of it that way before. All you hear is the never ending, Help stamp out puppy farmers. not a whiff about, "Help keep our rights to have our dogs" AR must be beside themselves with glee at how blindly the Victoria Pollies are doing as they are told. the results will be a disaster not only for all dog and cat owners, but income lost to vets, the entire pet industry they haven't factored in at all, they think "rescues" will fill the void. the kill rates will ensure only a fraction they get will become "rescues". Edited October 22, 2016 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 (edited) I have no idea how you would go about setting some thing like like this up, or what level of interest you would get. Maybe more along the lines of an 'Animal Companions Alliance' might sound more appealing? A sort of promoting mutual benefits thing. At 1st glance, a Dog breeders Union sounds more straight forward and simpler. Theres precedent. But when you think about it, Simply bringing all the various groups together in co operation is a union any way. Providing they join as individual members rather than group memberships so every one receives equal representation and recognition. More about what values you can contribute to making this work better for every one than conforming to any single group standards. So people can take responsibility from the pooled resources. Edited October 22, 2016 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 (edited) I have no idea how you would go about setting some thing like like this up, or what level of interest you would get. Maybe more along the lines of an 'Animal Companions Alliance' might sound more appealing? A sort of promoting mutual benefits thing. At 1st glance, a Dog breeders Union sounds more straight forward and simpler. Theres precedent. But when you think about it, Simply bringing all the various groups together in co operation is a union any way. Providing they join as individual members rather than group memberships so every one receives equal representation and recognition. More about what values you can contribute to making this work better for every one than conforming to any single group standards. So people can take responsibility from the pooled resources. it will be interesting to see how long it takes the dog and cat owners to wake up to the elimination of their democratic rights to innocent until proven guilty before or after these laws are passed, won't it? this is a pretty good message although its on a different subject https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11898581_985454184830311_5714031444219459086_n.jpg?oh=fbdcfb1a3c0afd58cb0a8beedbd49408&oe=589D6FB5 Edited October 22, 2016 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) I have no idea how you would go about setting some thing like like this up, or what level of interest you would get. Maybe more along the lines of an 'Animal Companions Alliance' might sound more appealing? A sort of promoting mutual benefits thing. At 1st glance, a Dog breeders Union sounds more straight forward and simpler. Theres precedent. But when you think about it, Simply bringing all the various groups together in co operation is a union any way. Providing they join as individual members rather than group memberships so every one receives equal representation and recognition. More about what values you can contribute to making this work better for every one than conforming to any single group standards. So people can take responsibility from the pooled resources. it will be interesting to see how long it takes the dog and cat owners to wake up to the elimination of their democratic rights to innocent until proven guilty before or after these laws are passed, won't it? this is a pretty good message although its on a different subject https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11898581_985454184830311_5714031444219459086_n.jpg?oh=fbdcfb1a3c0afd58cb0a8beedbd49408&oe=589D6FB5 Yes to the message! Taking away choice doesn't make people more responsible, it just means they have less ability to respond to the conditions that affect them as individuals. It might take people a while to wake up, It will be interesting. It will depend on how its enforced and lots of other stuff, but people are used to the idea that responsibility is for Govts. and not the people they represent. I think most will suck it up. Steve, where are are you with this? Do you think some thing like this is possible? Edited October 23, 2016 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpette Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 For your information from Dogs Vic Dear Members We need your URGENT help in providing the following information asap. If you are CURRENTLY having difficulty with your Local Council with issues relating to the registration of a Domestic Animal Business (DAB), planning permits or just simple registration of your dogs, we need to hear from you today if possible. We require the name of your Council. Fees charged A brief outline of your issue. Please keep it short and to the point. Please email to [email protected] with LOCAL COUNCIL ISSUES listed in the subject line. Further I just want to let you know what a magnificent job all our members are doing. I think most members of parliament have either been contacted by letter, telephone, or in some case by meeting with your local member in person. You are making a difference. But remember to make sure that if you post on facebook it is there for all to see and therefore what you say must be accurate. If you are not sure please check with me first. Contact has been made with most of the relevant stakeholders and some discussions are still ongoing. The letter which was to be forwarded to the Minister for Agriculture as mentioned at the meeting at Bulla was sent on Friday. Management Committee held an emergency meeting on Saturday to discuss further strategies. Obviously due to the sensitivity of these discussions, details cannot be released here. A complete update will be provided to members at the meeting next Tuesday and details of the meeting will be disseminated to members on Wednesday. Wayne Fleming President DOGS Victoria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witheverythingiam Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 A cat person found this link yesterday in her travels... http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0007/323629/19102016_Puppy_Farm_Bill_Cat_Applicable_Organisations_Fact_Sheet.docx Basically said "kitten farms" are non-existant, but too bad, we are going to lump you in with the puppy farm bill anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 A cat person found this link yesterday in her travels... http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0007/323629/19102016_Puppy_Farm_Bill_Cat_Applicable_Organisations_Fact_Sheet.docx Basically said "kitten farms" are non-existant, but too bad, we are going to lump you in with the puppy farm bill anyways. It's BS. DABs range from $200, $300, $550, &3,500!!! Not to mention councils wanting ABN and public liability insurance. And what happens if your bitch is due to whelp on the cusp of the DAB renewal? What happens if all the puppies die? I refuse to absorb any more expenses. Costs me a fortune as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) saw this on FB yesterday. Yeah sure, it's all about animal rights. dont know why there's 2 pics of the same thing, It said I didn't have a file so when I did it again it put both up Edited October 23, 2016 by Kirislin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witheverythingiam Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 I think that's taken from this article: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/chip-le-grand/victorias-proposed-laws-breed-resentment-in-the-dog-community/news-story/18beaec641cbe4eb5cd78625c90e0fd5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witheverythingiam Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 A cat person found this link yesterday in her travels... http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0007/323629/19102016_Puppy_Farm_Bill_Cat_Applicable_Organisations_Fact_Sheet.docx Basically said "kitten farms" are non-existant, but too bad, we are going to lump you in with the puppy farm bill anyways. It's BS. DABs range from $200, $300, $550, &3,500!!! Not to mention councils wanting ABN and public liability insurance. And what happens if your bitch is due to whelp on the cusp of the DAB renewal? What happens if all the puppies die? I refuse to absorb any more expenses. Costs me a fortune as it is. And that's only if you can afford to build the type of enclosures they are wanting built. Some councils will want indoor enclosures, which are temperature controlled. You know, like the homes they are kicking the animals out of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Who would have thought that ordinary every day people who want to own a couple of fertile dogs, maybe have a litter now and then, on a suburban block or even a couple of hundred acres would be regulated by such ridiculous rubbish and be made criminals? Who would have thought it was possible for someone who didnt get the DAB and had a litter to have their animals stolen from them rather than a shape up or else warning or even a fine.? Who would have thought animal rights would be able to collude with government to eliminate rescue's competition? Who would have thought we would get a labor government minister for Agriculture who was more eager to do animal rights bidding than industry stake holders. There are dozens of potential solutions to the perceived problem but they chose Oscar's Laws all the way - oh hang on what is that problem .Is it illegal puppy farms or people who keep their dogs in the type of housing they were told to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Who would have thought that ordinary every day people who want to own a couple of fertile dogs, maybe have a litter now and then, on a suburban block or even a couple of hundred acres would be regulated by such ridiculous rubbish and be made criminals? Who would have thought it was possible for someone who didnt get the DAB and had a litter to have their animals stolen from them rather than a shape up or else warning or even a fine.? Who would have thought animal rights would be able to collude with government to eliminate rescue's competition? Who would have thought we would get a labor government minister for Agriculture who was more eager to do animal rights bidding than industry stake holders. There are dozens of potential solutions to the perceived problem but they chose Oscar's Laws all the way - oh hang on what is that problem .Is it illegal puppy farms or people who keep their dogs in the type of housing they were told to? probably off topic but spotted this video. amazing it wasn't cut, one employee quit rather than be involved in what happens next https://www.facebook.com/709019335881463/videos/965234160259978/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) Who would have thought that ordinary every day people who want to own a couple of fertile dogs, maybe have a litter now and then, on a suburban block or even a couple of hundred acres would be regulated by such ridiculous rubbish and be made criminals? Who would have thought it was possible for someone who didnt get the DAB and had a litter to have their animals stolen from them rather than a shape up or else warning or even a fine.? Who would have thought animal rights would be able to collude with government to eliminate rescue's competition? Who would have thought we would get a labor government minister for Agriculture who was more eager to do animal rights bidding than industry stake holders. There are dozens of potential solutions to the perceived problem but they chose Oscar's Laws all the way - oh hang on what is that problem .Is it illegal puppy farms or people who keep their dogs in the type of housing they were told to? Agree. I am disgusted with the lack of leadership by people who demand 'recognition' as the 'legitimate' authority on dogs, but can't even recognize DOGS as the subject. Only pedigrees and standards. There can be NO leadership if there can be no unity. No unity with out recognition. Edited October 25, 2016 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) We need more people like this brilliant letter https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5563c0f3e4b086159c461796/t/580e0125d2b857e4d23c350c/1477312811518/Letter+from+Gordon+Curtis+concerning+the+proposed+Vic+dog+laws..pdf It is a proven fact that people with pets, live longer healthier lives, mentally and psychically due to the interaction with their pets. For this reason Pets as therapy came into being, and Therapy dogs are now recognised. The animal rights movement is hell bent , along the those who have infiltrated u know who, that along with the other AR groups are formulating these appalling laws with no regard to the reality of what will happen as a result We need to formulate how important the companion animals are to the mental health of the people of australia. Pets are just as important to the health and well being of the population as working dogs are to the farms of australia my friends son has anglemans and with out the dog I bred and gave him he can become unmanagable, Lighting can calm him down in seconds. Without his dog his quality of life is severely comprimised. It is now being recognised how important such companionship is for people with a varity of problems, PTSD is another I know of, horses as well as dogs can be wonderful in helping these people, a friend whose husband suffers badly and who is not in a situation where they can keep a pet comes to my place and spends hours with my dogs and horses, he can be at peace for up to 3 days after. She is blown away by how fast they help him relax. he can arrive so stressed he cant even stand still. to almost asleep with his head on Tilly's neck. Edited October 25, 2016 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) I believe humanity needs dogs to keep their humanity. They and other companion animals were essential to our evolution and communities. More recent science supports that, and argues that our evolution as a species is not due to 'survival of the fittest' and domination, but through co-operation. Acceptance of diversity is needed for that. Acceptance of companion animals is part of THAT. Co- operation and diversity is being hijacked by political 'correctness'. Its correct only by the standards of those who want to dominate discussion and acceptance. Freedom of speech is essential to responsibility because you can't be responsible with out free access to any information offered. But we refuse recognition of information if we don't like where it comes from. Yes, a brilliant letter. It also applies to many people breeding dogs for purposes that have no representation. We will lose even more purpose for dogs in all this B.S. Edited October 25, 2016 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witheverythingiam Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/eic/inquiries/article/3170 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/eic/inquiries/article/3170 Great. Industry will be represented, while they are part of an 'Industry' with representation. You 'might' win temporary exemptions, till those who don't care about any of it prove the exemptions aren't working. The environment a breeder works in does not govern the 'ethics' of his practices. The practices of breeders (or owners) won't improve until its practices that are promoted, rather than environments. They will decline. Edited October 26, 2016 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpette Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 The latest from Dogs Vic: BREAKING NEWS: DOGS Victoria's push for a review into the legislation has resulted in the announcement of a parliamentary committee inquiry, whereby stakeholders, including DOGS Victoria, will be able to highlight concerns over the likely impact of the Bill. The Committee will make their recommendations on the Bill to Parliament on 6 December 2016. We will update you as information comes to hand. For further details visit http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/eic/inquiries/inquiry/445 And from the above website: Terms of Reference The Domestic Animals Amendment (Puppy Farms and Pet Shops) Bill 2016 was self-referenced by the Committee on 25 October 2016: That, pursuant to Sessional Order 6, the Economy and Infrastructure Standing Committee undertake an inquiry into the Domestic Animals Amendment (Puppy Farms and Pet Shops) Bill 2016; the Committee reports its findings and recommendations to the Legislative Council by 6 December 2016, and that the inquiry in particular examine the likely effect of the bill on: existing Victorian dog breeders, and the availability of both pet and working dogs in the state of Victoria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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