Herding Dog Training And Workshops

[Starkehre]

I competed at a herding trial on the weekend with 3 different dogs. One I worked on 3 stock - sheep, cattle and ducks, 8 runs for her in total over the two days.

The other two dogs were the pups I bred myself and they did their Instinct Certificates and 2 x HT runs each, both achieving their HT titles at 6 months of age.

I've trained and trialled in many different disciplines over the years and now herding has become my main discipline. it is very different from all the others and I really enjoy it immensely.

Hope you continue to enjoy herding Willem. We have a couple of regular Vic trial attendees come down from NSW to trial as we offer all 3 stock.

I don't have anything against anyone trying various methods of training. However I think any stock training where the handler is encouraging the dog to watch a ball is encouraging off contact. One of the first things we teach a flanking dog is to give us eyes in and eyes out and distance. A drive object in the handlers hand will work in opposition to this.

I have also seen people try and teach flanks using objects/people/themselves instead of stock. Again, flanks are relevant to stock and training them in relation to an object is not herding.

Interesting convos though. Always open to looking at different methodology.

you referring to the youtube link in my first post?...I found watching it somehow disturbing - the added information says 'This dog has no interest in sheep but loves balls checkout how her coach got her herding!' ...well, I can't see the dog herding...and I can't see that the sheep will ever respond to his body language.

wrt our 'achievements' in the workshop: I'm pretty happy, first that she has this incredible drive / desire to work sheep so I could train her 24/7 days - she didn't want to drink, didn't want my treats, and when we had a break and let the dogs run freely she always wanted to go back to the paddocks :) . It took me a while till she responded again to the basic cues (stop, drop, recalls...) but we got there, even in her highest arousal state.

It was also nice to watch how settled and relaxed she was yesterday and today after such an intense weekend...I guess we are both hooked now, so it won't be our last workshop :).

Yep, I was :)

That's great. Enjoy :)

Edited October 11, 2016 by Starkehre

[Willem]

did someone read Herding Dogs: Progressive Training from Vergil S. Holland? ...someone recommended it to me and it got very good reviews on Amazon.

[Tassie]

I was fortunate enough to learn to work sheep with my conformation bred agility Border Collie girl on the property of a person who has working ISDS registered Border Collies, and sheep, and was an all breeds herding judge. My girl was a bit gung ho ... would never have made a 3 sheep dog, but became what the stockman called "a handy little farm dog", capable of gathering and yarding a couple of hundred sheep, and working them through yards and a drafting race, putting sheep up onto a truck .. etc. But ... I had a good trainer, with some well-dogged training sheep to practise on, and I was retired at the time, so had time to make the hour+ trip a couple of times a week at least, and spend hours walking through paddocks with her learning to balance small groups of sheep to me. Most importantly, with those hours of practise with different groups of sheep, I learnt to read sheep a bit.

That training was mostly about setting the dog up for success, so substantially positive, with the reinforcement being the chance to work .. BUT, I worry about 'recreational' herding, as unlike most of the other dog activities we do, there is the concern that there are non-consenting participants ... the sheep or ducks or cattle. I am comfortable with the use of mild aversives when necessary to protect the stock, while you're getting the dog out of the situation to apply the consequence of "no work".

I don't take my dogs to stock now, as I don't have the opportunity to do the amount of practice and work that I personally would consider necessary to do the job properly.

ETA ... I don't consider my dogs to be under-employed .. we compete and train/have competed in agility, obedience, Rally O, tracking, track & search and Dances with Dogs, and the boy still shows in conformation occasionally :)

Edited October 12, 2016 by Tassie

[Willem]

I was fortunate enough to learn to work sheep with my conformation bred agility Border Collie girl on the property of a person who has working ISDS registered Border Collies, and sheep, and was an all breeds herding judge. My girl was a bit gung ho ... would never have made a 3 sheep dog, but became what the stockman called "a handy little farm dog", capable of gathering and yarding a couple of hundred sheep, and working them through yards and a drafting race, putting sheep up onto a truck .. etc. But ... I had a good trainer, with some well-dogged training sheep to practise on, and I was retired at the time, so had time to make the hour+ trip a couple of times a week at least, and spend hours walking through paddocks with her learning to balance small groups of sheep to me. Most importantly, with those hours of practise with different groups of sheep, I learnt to read sheep a bit.

That training was mostly about setting the dog up for success, so substantially positive, with the reinforcement being the chance to work .. BUT, I worry about 'recreational' herding, as unlike most of the other dog activities we do, there is the concern that there are non-consenting participants ... the sheep or ducks or cattle. I am comfortable with the use of mild aversives when necessary to protect the stock, while you're getting the dog out of the situation to apply the consequence of "no work".

I don't take my dogs to stock now, as I don't have the opportunity to do the amount of practice and work that I personally would consider necessary to do the job properly.

ETA ... I don't consider my dogs to be under-employed .. we compete and train/have competed in agility, obedience, Rally O, tracking, track & search and Dances with Dogs, and the boy still shows in conformation occasionally :)

not sure what you mean with 'recreational herding' - the workshop I attended didn't differ between 'professional farm dogs' and companion dogs; the training for dogs and handler was all the same. There was of course a difference wrt the level of each dog, and the more advanced dogs (professional or companion dogs) were challenged with higher tasks.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Willem

[skip]

Hi Willem

Go the herding. I loved it because I loved seeing what is so ingrained in my dog. I love the kelpies stalk and drive. I cant do it now due to my kelpies bad hips. Sorta tempted as she was very controllable and biddable.

I also found it so damm confusing as you dont have instructions to follow, my dog is allowed to work it out and I had no clue. i remember being told to just let her go, she knows what she is doing. In my case my kelpie was very controllable and also naturally works away from the sheep. Sometimes she would give a hurry up to the sheep but I was told it was because she was bored and wanted something to happen. Told she had to learn to wait and take it calm.

However clinics with more sheep is heaps better. I did attend a Sydney clinic and learnt an entirely different approach to handling the dog which was very new and interesting. Guy teaching was older, very experienced and a judge too. Interesting to try to understand an entirely different method he was trying to introduce. Also agree no rewards needed as herding is the reward.

I will add my dog was a nervous dog, not so much sheep but the other dogs. I started her later and had to go every week for months until her love of sheep kicked in and she managed to forget the other dogs. A big change from trying to escape the sheep pen to looking over the fence for sheepies! I remember standing at a fence with a few sheep and the guy helping me told me to push a sheep out. This totally switched my kelpie on as she knew instinctively that all the sheep should be looking at the fence. Turn one away to face her and she turned into a snapping demon. It was very interesting and I saw a complete other side of her which I had been vaguely aware of but to see her really showing her colours was fascinating.

But like Kavik said, I also attended a Sydney club where I wasnt comfortable for the sheep. I think eventually this concern would make me look more for clinics elsewhere. What happens is that people seem to ignore the sheep welfare, always thinking they want their dog to have a bit longer "go" at the sheep. Some dogs are too full on and lack control, hence the sheep are left puffing and stressed. I remember once waiting my turn and some dog was really rushing the sheep with no instructor around. When the guy left the paddock I was told to hurry and go in. I am looking at a few puffing stressed sheep and wondering how I feel about this. I went in but my dog luckily can work away from sheep and we spent just a little while on control while the sheep just chilled and walked with me. I also asked for lame sheep to be removed whereas some people just didnt seem to care.

What dog do you have Willem. Dogs style seems to be different for breeds?

[JulesP]

I was worried about the sheep before I went but was happy at how the sheep were treated at the place I went to. The sheep had names and were well treated.

[Willem]

@ skip: she is a border collie from herding lines, no pedigree; she looks exactly like the Allan Munns' BCs. Her herding drive is incredible: before and after the sessions, and when we had breaks and the dogs were allowed to run freely and chase each other, she always wanted to go back to the paddocks where the sheep were - and running / playing with other dogs was one of her favoured games (there is a thread on this forum about the challenge I had to get her focus when other dogs were around - that changed completely).

@ Jules: giving every sheep a name would be quite a challenge with 15,000 head of sheep at the Arthursleigh Farm :) ; as it was my first herding workshop I can't compare, all I can say is that no sheep was mauled, I guess the occasional nipping attempts ended mostly with annoying wool in the dog's mouth (I have been nipped by my dog countless times when playing rough with her - I know the difference between nipping and biting) and the resources / sheep available allowed to share the stress. Trainer and organizers setup heaps of paddocks (big ones, small ones etc.) - I had the impression the whole workshop preparations were very good, with a very experienced trainer, and it balanced the welfare of dogs and sheep very well.

[Starkehre]

I am comfortable with herding. The stock - be them sheep, cattle or ducks are all treated with utmost care, compassion and respect. They are rotated regularly, not treated roughly and their welfare is an integral part of the whole herding environment.

If it was not this way, I would not be comfortable with herding and would not participate.

Photos taken of Seven during a Herding Started A Course Cattle and Herding Started B Course Sheep runs on the weekend just gone.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Starkehre

[Willem]

nice pics ...it also needs to be considered that each sheep / head of cattle represents quite a value - it is a pretty expensive 'toy' for a dog, thus I assume every owner has a great interest that the dogs don't ruin / harm their stock. I paid 2 x AU$ 75 (2 days) for the workshop - if they would loose just one head it just wouldn't be viable to organize such workshops.

[Scottsmum]

I am comfortable with herding. The stock - be them sheep, cattle or ducks are all treated with utmost care, compassion and respect. They are rotated regularly, not treated roughly and their welfare is an integral part of the whole herding environment.

If it was not this way, I would not be comfortable with herding and would not participate.

Photos taken of Seven during a Herding Started A Course Cattle and Herding Started B Course Sheep runs on the weekend just gone.

Gorgeous photos S!

[Starkehre]

I am comfortable with herding. The stock - be them sheep, cattle or ducks are all treated with utmost care, compassion and respect. They are rotated regularly, not treated roughly and their welfare is an integral part of the whole herding environment.

If it was not this way, I would not be comfortable with herding and would not participate.

Photos taken of Seven during a Herding Started A Course Cattle and Herding Started B Course Sheep runs on the weekend just gone.

Gorgeous photos S!

Thank you Scottsmum. We are very lucky to have such a wonderful photographer. Karen Edwards available to take photos at the RCV Herding Trial.

Here are a couple of piccies of Legend and Dance who both passed their Instinct Certificates and 2 x Herding Tests to gain their HT Titles last weekend :)

Youngest Rottweilers in Australia to achieve this title :)

Edited October 13, 2016 by Starkehre

[Scottsmum]

Good babies!

It's so grwat to see them working.

[Willem]

@ Starkehre: I just had a look at the ANKC Rules and Regulations for Herding Trials ...section 5 and 6. I'm pretty sure she would pass such a test (surely I can tick drop, sit, stand ...recall...and definitely 'sustained interest' in stock :D - I guess my problem would be to get her as a non-pedigree dog registered with the ANKC?...I read somewhere else that this would require to de-sex her as a non-pedigree dog (won't happen)?

[Willem]

I am comfortable with herding. The stock - be them sheep, cattle or ducks are all treated with utmost care, compassion and respect. They are rotated regularly, not treated roughly and their welfare is an integral part of the whole herding environment.

If it was not this way, I would not be comfortable with herding and would not participate.

Photos taken of Seven during a Herding Started A Course Cattle and Herding Started B Course Sheep runs on the weekend just gone.

Gorgeous photos S!

Thank you Scottsmum. We are very lucky to have such a wonderful photographer. Karen Edwards available to take photos at the RCV Herding Trial.

Here are a couple of piccies of Legend and Dance who both passed their Instinct Certificates and 2 x Herding Tests to gain their HT Titles last weekend :)

Youngest Rottweilers in Australia to achieve this title :)

Interesting - I just noticed the total different body appearance of your Rotties in the pics: tail is up!...all the BCs, Koolies, Kelpies show the typical stalking posture with the tail down when they work the sheep.

[Starkehre]

Willem you may be able to register your dogs on one of the sporting registers without desexing, sorry I don't know enough those registers. Someone else here will be able to assist.

These are 6 month old puppies that are still highly aroused. Their tails will drop to a degree in time when they are concentrating more.

That said these upright breeds herd differently to BCs, kelpies etc

Edited October 13, 2016 by Starkehre

[JulesP]

There is the Working Border Collie mob - http://awbcr.com/

Registration with them will get you a Sporting ANKC membership.

[JulesP]

Or you could just do 3 sheep trials

Edited October 13, 2016 by JulesP

[Willem]

There is the Working Border Collie mob - http://awbcr.com/

Registration with them will get you a Sporting ANKC membership.

na, their rules require 4 generations of known Working Border Collie blood lines.

[dragonwoman]

Thank you Scottsmum. We are very lucky to have such a wonderful photographer. Karen Edwards available to take photos at the RCV Herding Trial.

Here are a couple of piccies of Legend and Dance who both passed their Instinct Certificates and 2 x Herding Tests to gain their HT Titles last weekend :)

Youngest Rottweilers in Australia to achieve this title :)

Interesting - I just noticed the total different body appearance of your Rotties in the pics: tail is up!...all the BCs, Koolies, Kelpies show the typical stalking posture with the tail down when they work the sheep.

[Willem]

http://dogsnsw.org.au/images/Form_18_Sporting_Register_1st_July_2016.pdf

I just had a chat with a friendly lady from DogsNSW about registering her in the Sporting Register (see link). She (the lady from DogsNSW) told me that I can register her in the Sporting Register without having her de-sexed, although I don't have pedigree papers! I asked twice! She told me that the form is wrong and that they will fixing it and that I should ignore the second page.

I will try to get this confirmed from some experts in our club.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Willem