Herding Dog Training And Workshops

[Willem]

considering that - according to some estimations - we have up to 300,000 working dogs (dogs that really work sheep / cattle) in Australia, there is not much about herding here on this forum?... if adding all the Koolies, Kelpies and BCs to this group that live their live more as companion dogs, it is a little bit surprizing - I guess it has something to do with somehow aversive methods adopted in herding training?

to kick off a lively discussion here a footage I found on YouTube titled

...I agree with one of the comments that the dog isn't working the sheep at all, it shows no drive and the sheep seem to be really only somehow uninvolved decoy.

I had a first herding workshop with my dog and what I found is that the reward for the dogs (for all the dogs that participated in this workshop) was actually to be allowed to work the sheep. Nothing else, no treat, praise etc. could compete with the sheep. My dog ignored the best jackpots...it was only SHEEEEEP. So to capitalize on this reward it was required to 'let the dog go' - the challenge was to teach the dogs that there are some rules involved they have to follow to get this reward...

The workshop was organized by Michele Wilkins from Australien Koolie Rescue with Tony Mulvihill as trainer; training took place on his serene premises near Marulan, and the second day at the beautiful Arthursleigh Farm near Marulan, now owned and operated by the University of Sydney. Despite some aversive methods, my dog had the 2 best days of her life and got a lot of rewards by being allowed to herd real sheep.

Michele and all the other organizers and Tony did a fantastic job, all sheep survived the workshop without harm, and everyone had a great time. At the end of the second day I had the opportunity to watch Tony while he did some training with 3 of his own dogs moving sheep from one paddock to another through a gate and back again...and then back again ...and again. It was fantastic to watch as there was no stress recognizable, no nerviness, no anxiety, the sheep just moved along nicely, each of the 3 dogs followed the particular cue and everything happend in a very harmonical way...great to watch.

[Kavik]

Yes the more aversive methods used in herding is one of the reasons I prefer not to do it :)

I have been to one really good herding workshop, the first one I went to, and it was actually with Nitro's breeder but with my other dog Kaos when he was a young dog :) The other ones I have been to have not been as good.

[Kavik]

Also, I don't feel that I could commit enough time to it. Herding is never going to be one of my priorities. It would require quite a bit of travel, money and time to do it regularly, and it is not fair on the sheep, dog or myself to only go a couple of times a year. I don't live on a farm where the dog will get regular access to livestock nor is he required to do so as part of his day's work.

[Willem]

Also, I don't feel that I could commit enough time to it. Herding is never going to be one of my priorities. It would require quite a bit of travel, money and time to do it regularly, and it is not fair on the sheep, dog or myself to only go a couple of times a year. I don't live on a farm where the dog will get regular access to livestock nor is he required to do so as part of his day's work.

...that makes an interesting point: your dog was exactly bred for this, so why wouldn't it be fair to allow such breeds to do what they are bred for a few times in the year, although they don't do it as a job all year?

wrt aversives: we used pool noodles for teaching the dogs not to nip or launch uncontrolled attacks - for me this is the same level of aversives as using the leash to hold the dog back. We used of course also the leash, however, the utilisation of the leash is limited here as you have to let the dog go at a certain point, you just can't follow your dog fast enough. The pool noodle also becomes the visual sign to block the dog's path, change direction etc....

My brain is still going nuts to understand the difference between 'normal' training (obedience, agility) and herding and what's going on the dog's brain. The 'normal' training's task is to teach the dog how to control all the drives and instincts - the herding is about revealing and unleashing this specific instinct these herding breeds have been bred for (rules applied). That's a fascinating new world of training. The whole system, the whole training wouldn't work and wouldn't be possible without this one specific trait. You can do agility with e.g. a ridgeback, but you can't do herding with a ridgeback - it would be like trying to teach an emu to fly.

The aversives are minimal compared to the rewards / positive reinforcements given to the dogs. Sometimes I use seagulls as 'life bait', allowing my dog ('take it') to chase them when we walk at the beach. The seagulls become a very high valued reward - as a result I can call my dog back from chasing them, because in her mindset she has now this reflex that if she is obedience she will get another go - she works for the reward. I assume the herding is something similar - there is no other reward (treat, praise, seagulls, whatsoever) that could compare with letting her follow their own instinct regarding sheep.

[dragonwoman]

Also, I don't feel that I could commit enough time to it. Herding is never going to be one of my priorities. It would require quite a bit of travel, money and time to do it regularly, and it is not fair on the sheep, dog or myself to only go a couple of times a year. I don't live on a farm where the dog will get regular access to livestock nor is he required to do so as part of his day's work.

...that makes an interesting point: your dog was exactly bred for this, so why wouldn't it be fair to allow such breeds to do what they are bred for a few times in the year, although they don't do it as a job all year?

wrt aversives: we used pool noodles for teaching the dogs not to nip or launch uncontrolled attacks - for me this is the same level of aversives as using the leash to hold the dog back. We used of course also the leash, however, the utilisation of the leash is limited here as you have to let the dog go at a certain point, you just can't follow your dog fast enough. The pool noodle also becomes the visual sign to block the dog's path, change direction etc....

My brain is still going nuts to understand the difference between 'normal' training (obedience, agility) and herding and what's going on the dog's brain. The 'normal' training's task is to teach the dog how to control all the drives and instincts - the herding is about revealing and unleashing this specific instinct these herding breeds have been bred for (rules applied). That's a fascinating new world of training. The whole system, the whole training wouldn't work and wouldn't be possible without this one specific trait. You can do agility with e.g. a ridgeback, but you can't do herding with a ridgeback - it would be like trying to teach an emu to fly.

The aversives are minimal compared to the rewards / positive reinforcements given to the dogs. Sometimes I use seagulls as 'life bait', allowing my dog ('take it') to chase them when we walk at the beach. The seagulls become a very high valued reward - as a result I can call my dog back from chasing them, because in her mindset she has now this reflex that if she is obedience she will get another go - she works for the reward. I assume the herding is something similar - there is no other reward (treat, praise, seagulls, whatsoever) that could compare with letting her follow their own instinct regarding sheep.

Willem, you have summed it up beautifully, the old saying is that the dog's work is his reward. Herding is very confronting to a newcomer, you feel so out of control and right out of the comfort zone, so does the dog, suddenly it has a whole lot of new questions, the main one for some is "Am I allowed to do what my ancestors are telling me to do?" I recall my mind blowing at the sight of the meeting of minds of dog and sheep, I was not required!!!

Mine usually go wild (you can control that later) and show great enthusiasm, then you bring in your rules, they go on strike, they find out what is allowed, they do get sheep after all if they comply, it's not so bad, you start working together. Aversives? A plastic grass rake to block passage or to bang on the ground for emphasis is all....being taken off the sheep is a big punishment. Suppose it depends on the trainer and on the observers understanding what is going on in the yard

[Kavik]

I don't feel you will really progress with herding if you only go to a workshop a couple of times a year. A friend of mine goes regularly and she agrees, if you are going to do it you have to do it regularly if you want to improve.

Sure, the dog will have a blast even if you only go once every 2 years but for me the ethical question I raised in the other thread comes into it - I don't feel it is fair to stress the sheep just so your dog can 'play' at herding once a year. And I have no doubt that the first time a dog tries herding, it will stress the sheep. In order for it to be less stressful for the sheep, the dog has to be at a certain level.

[Willem]

Willem, you have summed it up beautifully, the old saying is that the dog's work is his reward. Herding is very confronting to a newcomer, you feel so out of control and right out of the comfort zone, so does the dog, suddenly it has a whole lot of new questions, the main one for some is "Am I allowed to do what my ancestors are telling me to do?" I recall my mind blowing at the sight of the meeting of minds of dog and sheep, I was not required!!!

Mine usually go wild (you can control that later) and show great enthusiasm, then you bring in your rules, they go on strike, they find out what is allowed, they do get sheep after all if they comply, it's not so bad, you start working together. Aversives? A plastic grass rake to block passage or to bang on the ground for emphasis is all....being taken off the sheep is a big punishment. Suppose it depends on the trainer and on the observers understanding what is going on in the yard

I mentioned this already in another thread: one of the most amazing things I ever experienced with my dog was when I let her of the leash in the paddock with the sheep for the first time: she suddenly behaved like a trained herding dog and I could keep her quite easily from the sheep respectively from nipping - to see from one moment to the other this specific instinct working in the dog was a real eye opener. I had to ask Tony 3 times what he meant when he told me to let her go as I thought I understood him wrong and feared a bloodshed, but he knew exactly what he asked me to do.

[Kavik]

yes dragonwoman that is another reason I don't do much herding - I feel so out of control! I don't know what to do. Sheep are big, and scary when they crowd around you :laugh:

The dog I took herding never looked like biting, so that wasn't a concern. He did like them to move though :laugh:

[Willem]

I don't feel you will really progress with herding if you only go to a workshop a couple of times a year. A friend of mine goes regularly and she agrees, if you are going to do it you have to do it regularly if you want to improve.

Sure, the dog will have a blast even if you only go once every 2 years but for me the ethical question I raised in the other thread comes into it - I don't feel it is fair to stress the sheep just so your dog can 'play' at herding once a year. And I have no doubt that the first time a dog tries herding, it will stress the sheep. In order for it to be less stressful for the sheep, the dog has to be at a certain level.

a few sheep might have some stress, but there is this saying: good sheep make good herding dogs, and good herding dogs make good sheep. To get there you have to put a little bit work into it.

The Arthursleigh Farm has 15,000 head of sheep (the farms is just on the other side of the river that separates Tony's property from the farm), enough to spread the stress - it is different if a workshop can only provide e.g. 5 sheep and a whole bunch of herding dogs inclusive newbies have a go. That will not only cause unnecessary high stress for the 5 sheep, but will also compromise the quality of the workshop as the sheep will shut down and there won't be any real training possible.

During the training sessions all the dogs got good runs to get rid of tensions and too much energy. Watching a bunch of Koolies, Kelpies and BCs storming freely over the wide land is priceless.

I also believe (TBC) that this herding training - also if I can do it only a few times a year - will have a positive impact on the 'normal' obedience and agility training. You just see a side of your dog you can't see when performing the daily routines. We missed the last agility and obedience training sessions as she was on heat (she just made it for the herding workshop), it will be interesting to see how she will go after such an intense weekend.

[Kavik]

Most of the places I have gone herding don't have a lot of sheep - I am in Sydney, so not that many places that have sheep, and the dog grounds at Erskine Park have several sheepdog clubs that work the sheep there, the last time I went there, and the times I have watched, the sheep have looked over dogged.

I agree that you will see a different side of the dog.

Howeverer, I feel to be useful it would have to be done frequently, and I don't have the time or resources to do that. And I do question how ethical it is to stress the sheep so my dog can have a play with them.

[Willem]

Most of the places I have gone herding don't have a lot of sheep - I am in Sydney, so not that many places that have sheep, and the dog grounds at Erskine Park have several sheepdog clubs that work the sheep there, the last time I went there, and the times I have watched, the sheep have looked over dogged.

I agree that you will see a different side of the dog.

Howeverer, I feel to be useful it would have to be done frequently, and I don't have the time or resources to do that. And I do question how ethical it is to stress the sheep so my dog can have a play with them.

to see your dog for the first time behind sheep without a leash attached is a moment you will never forget - like keeping the balance on a bicycle for the first time, or keeping yourself floating in water without struggling for the first time...it is mind blowing.

that's a nice one to watch:

...not sure what I admire more, his whistling skills or the dogs' skills to follow the cues :D

[Kavik]

I agree it is amazing to watch when they switch on.

I just don't think it is the sport for me :)

Luckily there are a lot of sports to choose from :)

I think IPO is an amazing sport too, and I have watched a few competitions whenever I find one that is in Sydney, also amazing to watch them at work. However, I also think this is not the sport for me :laugh:

Edited October 10, 2016 by Kavik

[dougal]

I have just started herding and agree, nothing better than watching your dog switch on and do what they were originally bred to do. I found the natural instinct amazing. No traditional training, when one sheep split from the group he knew how to bring it back in.

[Willem]

more reading http://www.workingaussiesource.com/working-aussie-source-stockdog-library-the-difference-between-herding-and-obedience-training-by-tenley-dexter/

I thought I had a very obedient dog, I can recall her from chasing seagulls and running with other dogs, even if we pass a pasture with cattle on the other side of the fence her response to my cues is excellent. Hence my surprize when I have been the first time with her in a narrow paddock with sheep in this 'instable zone' - it was like back in the times when she was a puppy seeing another dog on the horizon, and all the other things and people around her suddenly didn't exist anymore. First I was somehow disappointed by this unusual lack of obedience, later I recognized that it was actually a good thing (for the normal obedience training I could get the girl out of the honkey tonk, but luckily I couldn't get the honkey tonk out of the girl :D ).

[The Spotted Devil]

Try taking a working Spaniel on a shoot All I can say is thank goodness for all the impulse control training I've done. She blew everyone away.

[Kavik]

Try taking a working Spaniel on a shoot All I can say is thank goodness for all the impulse control training I've done. She blew everyone away.

Do you train or compete on live game?

[Willem]

some light reading about herd behaviour https://dspace.library.colostate.edu/bitstream/handle/10217/4350/C108.pdf?sequence=1

[Starkehre]

I competed at a herding trial on the weekend with 3 different dogs. One I worked on 3 stock - sheep, cattle and ducks, 8 runs for her in total over the two days.

The other two dogs were the pups I bred myself and they did their Instinct Certificates and 2 x HT runs each, both achieving their HT titles at 6 months of age.

I've trained and trialled in many different disciplines over the years and now herding has become my main discipline. it is very different from all the others and I really enjoy it immensely.

Hope you continue to enjoy herding Willem. We have a couple of regular Vic trial attendees come down from NSW to trial as we offer all 3 stock.

I don't have anything against anyone trying various methods of training. However I think any stock training where the handler is encouraging the dog to watch a ball is encouraging off contact. One of the first things we teach a flanking dog is to give us eyes in and eyes out and distance. A drive object in the handlers hand will work in opposition to this.

I have also seen people try and teach flanks using objects/people/themselves instead of stock. Again, flanks are relevant to stock and training them in relation to an object is not herding.

Interesting convos though. Always open to looking at different methodology.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Starkehre

[The Spotted Devil]

Try taking a working Spaniel on a shoot All I can say is thank goodness for all the impulse control training I've done. She blew everyone away.

Do you train or compete on live game?

No - just as an aside :) I know people that shoot and Em either works the paddock or plays pick up dog. Retrieving trials are on dead game. Field trials are on rabbits but I don't compete in them.

[Willem]

I competed at a herding trial on the weekend with 3 different dogs. One I worked on 3 stock - sheep, cattle and ducks, 8 runs for her in total over the two days.

The other two dogs were the pups I bred myself and they did their Instinct Certificates and 2 x HT runs each, both achieving their HT titles at 6 months of age.

I've trained and trialled in many different disciplines over the years and now herding has become my main discipline. it is very different from all the others and I really enjoy it immensely.

Hope you continue to enjoy herding Willem. We have a couple of regular Vic trial attendees come down from NSW to trial as we offer all 3 stock.

I don't have anything against anyone trying various methods of training. However I think any stock training where the handler is encouraging the dog to watch a ball is encouraging off contact. One of the first things we teach a flanking dog is to give us eyes in and eyes out and distance. A drive object in the handlers hand will work in opposition to this.

I have also seen people try and teach flanks using objects/people/themselves instead of stock. Again, flanks are relevant to stock and training them in relation to an object is not herding.

Interesting convos though. Always open to looking at different methodology.

you referring to the youtube link in my first post?...I found watching it somehow disturbing - the added information says 'This dog has no interest in sheep but loves balls checkout how her coach got her herding!' ...well, I can't see the dog herding...and I can't see that the sheep will ever respond to his body language.

wrt our 'achievements' in the workshop: I'm pretty happy, first that she has this incredible drive / desire to work sheep so I could train her 24/7 days - she didn't want to drink, didn't want my treats, and when we had a break and let the dogs run freely she always wanted to go back to the paddocks :) . It took me a while till she responded again to the basic cues (stop, drop, recalls...) while with the sheep in the paddock, but we got there, even in her highest arousal state.

It was also nice to watch how settled and relaxed she was yesterday and today after such an intense weekend...I guess we are both hooked now, so it won't be our last workshop :).

Edited October 11, 2016 by Willem