Shelties - American Vs English

[rachael12]

I'm looking at getting a third Sheltie. Currently 2 atm. One is American - brought him with me from the states when I moved back to Aus, the other is English, bought from a breeder in QLD. Very different dogs, both gorgeous. I'm looking to show the new pup we will get and just curious on peoples opinions. To be honest I do like the look of the American shelties more, but i do understand that they have collie in their background unlike the English type.

Do one type do better in the show ring or are they judged equally? I have been chatting to breeders and it seems like there are people using American sires more and more.

Thanks

[bridgie_cat]

Big topic in the sheltie world these days

Re who wins more... it is very judge dependent. I'd have to say that more and more the US dogs are taking out the all breeds shows IMO - they are showier in many ways - more ring presence with their more full on temperaments etc. The English win under the specialists at your champ shows more (where they generally have English or European judges). The US are obviously the stronger and heavier built of the 2, and in my experience are more confident/full on. Great for obedience - no issues with stand for exam! The english for me are the graceful lythe version, with the gentle quick natures, but you need to be careful as I think nervous individuals are more common in the english (happen in both of course!)... The quick and light footed english for me I just LOVE to watch running around an agility course :D obviously both are great in both sports tho!!

I'd be more inclined to get the type of dog you like the look of, and the temperament you want to live with as that is the dog you will enjoy the most

Feel free to drop me an email if you want to chat more about shelties and the type debate - I always enjoy a good sheltie based conversation :D my kennel is Sheltoah

eta - I own both types but my preference is the English :D

Edited September 30, 2016 by bridgie_cat

[mita]

Just from a pet owner's perspective, I love the English (Scots, to me!) Shelties for their fineness of frame & sweet faces. So much closer to those little 'fairy' dogs (Peery Dogs) from the Shetland Islands.

Would it be likely that the Sheltie breed would ever split into 2...like for the English Cocker Spaniel & the American Cocker Spaniel?

We used to own p/b Shelties as pets & I loved them for that fine look. One we named Shelley after fine Shelley China. And I loved how the specialist at the UQ Vet Clinic used to say to our other, Danny, 'What's a fine young Scot like you, doing with an Irish name?' Danny was very much my fine young Scot!

When we also got Tibbies, I was on an international Tibbie list where quite a few of the US Tibbie breeders also bred & showed Shelties. I was really put off by the American Shelties' big frames. I'd own an English (Scots!) Sheltie in a heartbeat but not an American one.

Edited September 30, 2016 by mita

[persephone]

I also have a preference for the English ones :)

[mita]

Again, as a pet owner, however did Shetland Sheepdogs get called 'English' anyway? It seems to have pointed away a bit from their origin where being finely built had good reason... same for the ponies & cattle of their home location, on the small Scottish islands of the Shetlands. Worse still, why did the Americans get in on their act, too.

Our Shelties used to wear a little white rose on their collars sometimes because that's the symbol of the Scottish Nationalists who have their poem inscribed on the wall of the Scottish Parliament:

“The Little White Rose”

The rose of all the world is not for me

I want for my part

Only the little white rose of Scotland

That smells sharp and sweet – and breaks the heart.

[Dogsfevr]

The one thing when comparing US to UK is the grooming you can make an UK dog look american once groomed up .

They should be a functional well in mind breed .

Also a good Sheltie will win under judges all over ,a good owner will groom according to the judge ,

A good breeder will mix both lines well & get the best of both sides.

[bridgie_cat]

a good Sheltie will win under judges all over

this is very true. although you may struggle to buy a puppy of that quality as your first show dog out here... and being fair a dog of high enough quality to win under all judges the top and longest running breeders will only get on occasion!! Louanda have such a bitch at the moment who comes to mind :)

It is not just a choice between US and UK type either - there are a couple of kennels who are blending successfully between them (and some that are not as successful) and they can have a more moderate type, more compact bodies and rib cages with a bit more bone like the US, but with a little more of the UK sweetness of expression... I would honestly find a couple of breeders who are doing alright in the show ring and breeding a "type" you like within whichever of these three categories you decide on (with nice temperaments too importantly!!) and then approach them about whether they would keep you in mind for a show prospect puppy. Within the "english" or "US" or "blended" you will still some difference in the style of dog the breeders are producing as they will each have their own priorities when doing breedings. You will often have an easier time getting a boy to show at first but I'd talk to people and see if you can get to know them and show you are keen etc :)

eta:

Would it be likely that the Sheltie breed would ever split into 2...like for the English Cocker Spaniel & the American Cocker Spaniel?

there HAS been discussion about splitting the breed - particularly in Europe where more US stock is starting to come in like it has here, and there was a petition going around to get them split... BUT It would be very tough in Australia I'd think if they did split them? Gene pools are already getting smaller, then you take half the dogs off the table... and what about all the blended lines? Where would they fall? Can of worms. Will be very interesting to see if anything comes of it.

You would also need judges to then judge to both the UK and US standards for each? At the moment they should all be judging to the UK standard in Australia since that is the accepted one here and what we should all be breeding to.

Edited September 30, 2016 by bridgie_cat

[Kavik]

I seriously doubt that Shelties would be split into 2 breeds. There are breeds with a LOT more variation in type than Shelties which are not split. Many have show/working line splits but are still considered the same breed. I seriously doubt that UK and US Shelties are more different to each other than say working GSD and show GSD or working BCs and show BCs.

[bridgie_cat]

but does anyone show working BCs and GSDs? I dont think anyone breeding for specifically show or work would ever go between the working and show border lines... and many working borders are on a different register aren't they? I'm not sure it is the same thing when a breed is split between work and show as that is the case in many (gun dog breeds too if I am not mistaken?) and those lines look and act very differently, and would more than likely not be bred between much? Where the US and UK shelties are all in the same ring with a big disparity in type. Not saying they should or would be split!! But I do think it is a very different situation... but thats JMO

eta I will happily remove my comments on the breed splitting discussion if it will take us too far OT just replying to the question earlier about whether it was something that could happen.

Edited September 30, 2016 by bridgie_cat

[Kavik]

Lots of the working BCs that I know are ANKC registered.

[angelsun]

Is there not one breed standard? The arguement of show/working look in shepherds, borders, labs etc......last time I looked, there was only one breed standard. Being that many of the breeds do indeed have a different look, who is actually not breeding to the standard? If a registered breeder is promoting their 'working line' dogs that should mean they have the brain to do the job they were bred for.....but they should not structurally be so different. Both show and working line breeders proclaim they are correct....but that in fact is not the case....

[The Spotted Devil]

Certainly work vs show split is very common in Gundog breeds - ESS, Cockers, Goldens, Labs, GSPs, Brittany. There is occasionally some cross-over but it's easier where the two physical types aren't so extreme. I've seen the offspring of show x working labs and the results were so inconsistent in terms of field work and temperament that I doubt the breeder will ever do a similar mating. Within working Labs, the differences between Australian vs English vs US types are also very evident.

The English vs US type also pops up in Dalmatians. But I think they are much more similar than they are different - and that probably determines whether a breed will split.

With regard to Shelties I have seen quite a range of temperaments - from timid to reserved to attitude plus!

Edited September 30, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[RiverStar-Aura]

Is there not one breed standard? The arguement of show/working look in shepherds, borders, labs etc......last time I looked, there was only one breed standard. Being that many of the breeds do indeed have a different look, who is actually not breeding to the standard? If a registered breeder is promoting their 'working line' dogs that should mean they have the brain to do the job they were bred for.....but they should not structurally be so different. Both show and working line breeders proclaim they are correct....but that in fact is not the case....

I'm with you on this angelsun. One standard per breed not one show standard and one working standard. Working border collies for example with their scruffy short coats should be limited register only as they are not per breed standard especially in reference to coat. JMHO

Re Shelties: being involved in the agility world, I've seen many different types but I wasn't aware the breed was heading down an English/US path. I just assumed some lines had a more dense coat than others.

[Kavik]

Is there not one breed standard? The arguement of show/working look in shepherds, borders, labs etc......last time I looked, there was only one breed standard. Being that many of the breeds do indeed have a different look, who is actually not breeding to the standard? If a registered breeder is promoting their 'working line' dogs that should mean they have the brain to do the job they were bred for.....but they should not structurally be so different. Both show and working line breeders proclaim they are correct....but that in fact is not the case....

I'm with you on this angelsun. One standard per breed not one show standard and one working standard. Working border collies for example with their scruffy short coats should be limited register only as they are not per breed standard especially in reference to coat. JMHO

Re Shelties: being involved in the agility world, I've seen many different types but I wasn't aware the breed was heading down an English/US path. I just assumed some lines had a more dense coat than others.

Australia has a strange Border Collie standard. Other countries allow the short coat and a wider variety of colours. FCI standard: http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/297g01-en.pdf

And a fairly typical Working German Shepherd

Edited September 30, 2016 by Kavik

[The Spotted Devil]

Is there not one breed standard? The arguement of show/working look in shepherds, borders, labs etc......last time I looked, there was only one breed standard. Being that many of the breeds do indeed have a different look, who is actually not breeding to the standard? If a registered breeder is promoting their 'working line' dogs that should mean they have the brain to do the job they were bred for.....but they should not structurally be so different. Both show and working line breeders proclaim they are correct....but that in fact is not the case....

I'm with you on this angelsun. One standard per breed not one show standard and one working standard. Working border collies for example with their scruffy short coats should be limited register only as they are not per breed standard especially in reference to coat. JMHO

Re Shelties: being involved in the agility world, I've seen many different types but I wasn't aware the breed was heading down an English/US path. I just assumed some lines had a more dense coat than others.

It's not that simple though. ESS used to be worked on one day and shown the next. Then some decided they preferred to show and others decided they preferred to work their dogs. And they selected accordingly. I wouldn't take a show ESS out hunting - and until you've seen my bitch pick up 20 pheasants in double quick time and go back for more it's hard to describe the intensity with which they work - but I'm not going to proclaim that my way is the only way. Live and let live. There is no "working standard" anyway - I breed for drive, working instinct, temperament and a balanced structure. I select for a dark eye, less coat and shorter ears if I have the luxury. A heavy coat and pendulous ears are a hazard in the field.

[mita]

there HAS been discussion about splitting the breed - particularly in Europe where more US stock is starting to come in like it has here, and there was a petition going around to get them split... BUT It would be very tough in Australia I'd think if they did split them? Gene pools are already getting smaller, then you take half the dogs off the table... and what about all the blended lines? Where would they fall? Can of worms. Will be very interesting to see if anything comes of it.

You would also need judges to then judge to both the UK and US standards for each? At the moment they should all be judging to the UK standard in Australia since that is the accepted one here and what we should all be breeding to.

Thanks for that comment. Especially interesting that the issue of breed splitting is mainly being discussed in Europe because they're more open to US shelties coming in. I know I sound like a broken record but I can't understand why the US went for such bigger frames which goes right against the breed's origin.

Your points about implications for the smaller Australian population of shelties, if there were a split, and also the position of the blended lines are spot on. And I'm cheering that you've said the UK standard is the one accepted in Australia!

[RuralPug]

Is there not one breed standard? The arguement of show/working look in shepherds, borders, labs etc......last time I looked, there was only one breed standard. Being that many of the breeds do indeed have a different look, who is actually not breeding to the standard? If a registered breeder is promoting their 'working line' dogs that should mean they have the brain to do the job they were bred for.....but they should not structurally be so different. Both show and working line breeders proclaim they are correct....but that in fact is not the case....

It is the interpretation of that one standard that is the cause of differences in type within breed. Working vs show is often an excellent example of interpretation leading to show breeders putting more effort into features that are perhaps more eye-catching than practical for the breed's intended purpose. And vice versa for the working line breeders. My bet is that neither show nor working type are exactly what the original standard writers meant, but something in between.

And even within show breeding, concentration on intensifying some features over others has, in many breeds, resulted in a completely different look - just compare pictures of champions early last century (close to when the standards were actually written) to pictures of top winners in the same breeds today.

So it is quite possible to have different types within the same breed, because standards can be interpreted in different ways.The point is to breed to correct type - but who determines what is correct? You would think that words like "moderate", "square", "short" and "straight" for example are fairly clear, yes? Nevertheless, breeders and/or judges have managed to interpret descriptions like those to mean "as short as possible", "the squarer the better" etc. to the point of ridiculousness, more often than not to the detriment of the breed. "Moderate length of neck" - how could you go wrong? Yet examination of pictures of winning type in various eras and places you can see that it has been taken to mean "long and graceful" or "missing if possible" as different fashions within the breed come and go.

It has happened in more breeds than have stuck close to original type, in most breeds I would dare to say. And, in some cases, has occasioned a split between breeds - American vs "English" Bulldogs, Cocker Spaniels among the obvious ones.

Indeed, in some breeds, the type of consistent breed winners seems totally estranged from the type of consistent all-breed winners. That, to me, is a real worry and seems to indicate that judges are not doing their job of comparing specimens with an imaginary ideal of their breed, scoring them accordingly and determining the winner of the all breed class as the one with the highest score.

Is any of this in any way linked to the ANKC's current drive to override ALL breed standards by allowing any colour/pattern to be main registered for breeding and showing? (Unless the breed leading body can PROVE health impairments linked to a specific colour? Bugger the genetic proof that certain colours do not exist within the breed genepool - pfft - irrelevant, according to the ANKC.)

[Sheridan]

I'm looking at getting a third Sheltie. Currently 2 atm. One is American - brought him with me from the states when I moved back to Aus, the other is English, bought from a breeder in QLD. Very different dogs, both gorgeous. I'm looking to show the new pup we will get and just curious on peoples opinions. To be honest I do like the look of the American shelties more, but i do understand that they have collie in their background unlike the English type.

Do one type do better in the show ring or are they judged equally? I have been chatting to breeders and it seems like there are people using American sires more and more.

Thanks

Good luck in finding an English Shetland Sheepdog. There's no such thing.

[bridgie_cat]

in some breeds, the type of consistent breed winners seems totally estranged from the type of consistent all-breed winners. That, to me, is a real worry and seems to indicate that judges are not doing their job of comparing specimens with an imaginary ideal of their breed

*** THIS ***

Is can certainly be the case quite often in the sheltie world... the specialty shows are English dominated. And then lovely English dogs will often be overlooked in the all breeds ring - and american imports or heavy 100% US bred dogs put up.... why are the all breeds judges not judging the same (or more consistently like) the specialists for the breed? In some cases they are from countries where US breed type dominates.

The American shelties are bred to a different standard in the US. There are different height specification, and different wording to describe heads and expressions... it is an interesting comparison between the two and to see how they are interpreted.